capital punishment

[MoNiCa4316]

Did I ever start a thread on this? anyway.. I was wondering on the Church's stance on capital punishment. What exactly is it. For? Against? I remember the Pope spoke against it, how does this relate to the teaching? etc... if anyone could give me any information at all that would be great Thanks!

 

[FullyMT]

The Church teaches that capital punishment, the death penalty, is only allowable in situations which a person is an immediate threat to those around them and society. In most, if not all, Western countries, capital punishment is not only not necessary, but a grave sin.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

The Church teaches that capital punishment, the death penalty, is only allowable in situations which a person is an immediate threat to those around them and society. In most, if not all, Western countries, capital punishment is not only not necessary, but a grave sin.

thanks! so based on the last point, can a Catholic be against capital punishment, since in our society we have other ways of dealing with crime? I remember the Pope talked about it too, and maybe Pope John Paul II too.. I read that before the Church supported capital punishment more but I think it was because the society was different and now as you said, there are other ways, so capital punishment can no longer be labelled "defense" as easily. Any thoughts on that?

 

[MikeK]

You are correct in your understanding, and in your assessment of the statements of Pope John Paul II and Benedict 16. Te death penalty I allowable only when it is impossible (not impractical or unpracticed) to protect others from the criminal. There have been no such cases in the US in several decades.

Note that legitimate self-defense or the defense of others is not to be confused with the death penalty. W have the right to use the required force, up to and including delay force if needed, to protect ourselves or others from immediate harm.

thanks! so based on the last point, can a Catholic be against capital punishment, since in our society we have other ways of dealing with crime? I remember the Pope talked about it too, and maybe Pope John Paul II too.. I read that before the Church supported capital punishment more but I think it was because the society was different and now as you said, there are other ways, so capital punishment can no longer be labelled "defense" as easily. Any thoughts on that?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

thanks! good to know

 

[Rhamiel]

like in the old west or medieval europe or maybe in some less advanced nations where the rule of law and law enforcment is weak, the death penalty is needed as a deturant, so then it was needed to protect the society
but now, atleast in the global north, it is not needed, and to take a life without need is sinful
so more then being agianst it, i would say the death penalty is sinful

 

[Antigone]

like in the old west or medieval europe or maybe in some less advanced nations where the rule of law and law enforcment is weak, the death penalty is needed as a deturant, so then it was needed to protect the society

Or in cases like Osama Bin Laden. If the US (or anyone else) had caught him alive, it would probably have been impossible to keep him in a prison without anyone trying to break him out or kill him and harm othersi n the process.

 

[StThomasMore]

thanks! so based on the last point, can a Catholic be against capital punishment, since in our society we have other ways of dealing with crime? I remember the Pope talked about it too, and maybe Pope John Paul II too.. I read that before the Church supported capital punishment more but I think it was because the society was different and now as you said, there are other ways, so capital punishment can no longer be labelled "defense" as easily. Any thoughts on that?

The Church teaches that recourse to the death penalty is allowable if it is the only option left to defend a community against an aggressor(like a serial killer who has killed an enormous amount of people and shows no regret and will continue to kill if he had the chance). I think the death penalty of people like Ted Bundy was definitely justifiable.

Some popes and bishops are more for the death penalty than others. It is one of the things that the Church leaves open to debate regarding it. For instance Pope Pius XII, Pope Leo XIII or Bishop Fulton Sheen would seem more for the death penalty than John Paul II. The the bible itself practically commends it as a form of justice(Leviticus 24:16). At the word of our first pope, Peter, two people were put to death. There are other supporting positions for capital punishment in the New Testament:

Acts 5:5-10 - When Ananias heard these words he fell down and breathed his last and great fear came upon all who heard of it. The young men came and wrapped him up then carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours his wife (Sapphira) came in unaware of what had happened. Peter said to her "Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?" She answered "Yes, for that amount." Then Peter said to her "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." At once she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. (Note: Both Ananias and Sapphira had quick easy deaths but will suffer with the damned for eternity.)

That's why the Church leaves it up to the state to decide on regarding the death penalty considering so many different factors arise in each and every case, and no case is the same. Thats why now Pope cardinal Jospeh Razinger stated:

"For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia." - Worthiness to receive holy communion

Clement, the Bishop of Rome from 90-100 C.E., argued that God alone rules all things, that He lays down the law, punishing rebels and rewarding the obedient, and that His authority is delegated to Church leaders. Clement went as far as to say that whoever disobeys these divinely ordained authorities has disobeyed God Himself and should receive the death penalty.
Even in the beginning of the twentieth century, Pope Leo XIII argued that the ends justified the means. He said :
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]
“[/FONT]The death sentence is a necessary and efficacious means for the Church to attain its end, when rebels act against it.” - Pope Leo XIII

If I have committed a crime or done anything deserving death, I do not seek to escape the death penalty; but if there is no substance to the charges they are bringing against me, then no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar." [Acts 25:11] — Saint Paul's clear acknowledgment of deserved death sentences and that he would not seek to escape a justified sentence of death.

Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. [Rom. 1:32] — Statement of Saint Paul that the death penalty is a just decree of God for various offenses.

The Church's teaching has not changed, nor has the Pope said that it has. The Catechism and the Pope state that the state has the right to exact the death penalty. Nations have the right to just war and individuals have the right to self-defense.

Now of course it would be a great world if society did not need the death penalty. And this is what we pray for when we hope to end it.

 

[Colin]

Being Pro Life I am Anti Capital Punishment .

 

[Antigone]

The Church teaches that recourse to the death penalty is allowable if it is the only option left to defend a community against an aggressor(like a serial killer who has killed an enormous amount of people and shows no regret and will continue to kill if he had the chance). I think the death penalty of people like Ted Bundy was definitely justifiable.

This is where you lose me. It's a giant leap between serial killers murdering people and the state murdering a serial killer and removing someone from society doesn't automatically mean killing them. My interpretation of the oft-cited official quote is that if the prison system isn't safe, we need to build better prisons. Not throw in the towel and execute the more inconvenient elements of society.

 

[FullyMT]

The Church teaches that recourse to the death penalty is allowable if it is the only option left to defend a community against an aggressor(like a serial killer who has killed an enormous amount of people and shows no regret and will continue to kill if he had the chance). I think the death penalty of people like Ted Bundy was definitely justifiable.

Some popes and bishops are more for the death penalty than others. It is one of the things that the Church leaves open to debate regarding it. For instance Pope Pius XII, Pope Leo XIII or Bishop Fulton Sheen would seem more for the death penalty than John Paul II. The the bible itself practically commends it as a form of justice(Leviticus 24:16). At the word of our first pope, Peter, two people were put to death. There are other supporting positions for capital punishment in the New Testament:

Acts 5:5-10 - When Ananias heard these words he fell down and breathed his last and great fear came upon all who heard of it. The young men came and wrapped him up then carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours his wife (Sapphira) came in unaware of what had happened. Peter said to her "Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?" She answered "Yes, for that amount." Then Peter said to her "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." At once she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. (Note: Both Ananias and Sapphira had quick easy deaths but will suffer with the damned for eternity.)

That's why the Church leaves it up to the state to decide on regarding the death penalty considering so many different factors arise in each and every case, and no case is the same. Thats why now Pope cardinal Jospeh Razinger stated:

"For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia." - Worthiness to receive holy communion

Clement, the Bishop of Rome from 90-100 C.E., argued that God alone rules all things, that He lays down the law, punishing rebels and rewarding the obedient, and that His authority is delegated to Church leaders. Clement went as far as to say that whoever disobeys these divinely ordained authorities has disobeyed God Himself and should receive the death penalty.
Even in the beginning of the twentieth century, Pope Leo XIII argued that the ends justified the means. He said :
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]
“[/FONT]The death sentence is a necessary and efficacious means for the Church to attain its end, when rebels act against it.” - Pope Leo XIII

If I have committed a crime or done anything deserving death, I do not seek to escape the death penalty; but if there is no substance to the charges they are bringing against me, then no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar." [Acts 25:11] — Saint Paul's clear acknowledgment of deserved death sentences and that he would not seek to escape a justified sentence of death.

Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. [Rom. 1:32] — Statement of Saint Paul that the death penalty is a just decree of God for various offenses.

The Church's teaching has not changed, nor has the Pope said that it has. The Catechism and the Pope state that the state has the right to exact the death penalty. Nations have the right to just war and individuals have the right to self-defense.

Now of course it would be a great world if society did not need the death penalty. And this is what we pray for when we hope to end it.

So, I guess the question now is: Is there or has there ever been a legitimate reason to use the death penalty or go to war in the USA since WWII?

 

[benedictaoo]

Did I ever start a thread on this? anyway.. I was wondering on the Church's stance on capital punishment. What exactly is it. For? Against? I remember the Pope spoke against it, how does this relate to the teaching? etc... if anyone could give me any information at all that would be great Thanks!

Only listen to what davidNic has to post about this because some who feel they are the good correct Catholics, they are in denial about what the popes and all the United States Bishops all have said about the DP here in America.

 

[benedictaoo]

So, I guess the question now is: Is there or has there ever been a legitimate reason to use the death penalty or go to war in the USA since WWII?

Nope. Popes all said so.

 

[benedictaoo]

The Church teaches that recourse to the death penalty is allowable if it is the only option left to defend a community against an aggressor(like a serial killer who has killed an enormous amount of people and shows no regret and will continue to kill if he had the chance). I think the death penalty of people like Ted Bundy was definitely justifiable.

Some popes and bishops are more for the death penalty than others. It is one of the things that the Church leaves open to debate regarding it. For instance Pope Pius XII, Pope Leo XIII or Bishop Fulton Sheen would seem more for the death penalty than John Paul II. The the bible itself practically commends it as a form of justice(Leviticus 24:16). At the word of our first pope, Peter, two people were put to death. There are other supporting positions for capital punishment in the New Testament:

Acts 5:5-10 - When Ananias heard these words he fell down and breathed his last and great fear came upon all who heard of it. The young men came and wrapped him up then carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours his wife (Sapphira) came in unaware of what had happened. Peter said to her "Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?" She answered "Yes, for that amount." Then Peter said to her "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." At once she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. (Note: Both Ananias and Sapphira had quick easy deaths but will suffer with the damned for eternity.)

That's why the Church leaves it up to the state to decide on regarding the death penalty considering so many different factors arise in each and every case, and no case is the same. Thats why now Pope cardinal Jospeh Razinger stated:

"For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia." - Worthiness to receive holy communion

Clement, the Bishop of Rome from 90-100 C.E., argued that God alone rules all things, that He lays down the law, punishing rebels and rewarding the obedient, and that His authority is delegated to Church leaders. Clement went as far as to say that whoever disobeys these divinely ordained authorities has disobeyed God Himself and should receive the death penalty.
Even in the beginning of the twentieth century, Pope Leo XIII argued that the ends justified the means. He said :
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]
“[/FONT]The death sentence is a necessary and efficacious means for the Church to attain its end, when rebels act against it.” - Pope Leo XIII

If I have committed a crime or done anything deserving death, I do not seek to escape the death penalty; but if there is no substance to the charges they are bringing against me, then no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar." [Acts 25:11] — Saint Paul's clear acknowledgment of deserved death sentences and that he would not seek to escape a justified sentence of death.

Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. [Rom. 1:32] — Statement of Saint Paul that the death penalty is a just decree of God for various offenses.

The Church's teaching has not changed, nor has the Pope said that it has. The Catechism and the Pope state that the state has the right to exact the death penalty. Nations have the right to just war and individuals have the right to self-defense.

Now of course it would be a great world if society did not need the death penalty. And this is what we pray for when we hope to end it.

You know... we are a Church who does like to live in the present. Just sayin'...

 

[EDB]

Always best to look to the CCC for your answers. I think this is pretty clear cut:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."

As you can see, the Church teaches it may be used in some circumstances, but those circumstances are virtually non-existent.

 

[Miser]

How come this is not a larger political issue in America? I see hundreds of threads about abortion here, but this is the first one about capital punishment. I would have thought Democrats would have banned it eons ago.

 

[Rhamiel]

This is where you lose me. It's a giant leap between serial killers murdering people and the state murdering a serial killer and removing someone from society doesn't automatically mean killing them. My interpretation of the oft-cited official quote is that if the prison system isn't safe, we need to build better prisons. Not throw in the towel and execute the more inconvenient elements of society.

yeah, if someone keeps killing, well we can just put them in jail, we do not need to kill them

 

[Rhamiel]

Or in cases like Osama Bin Laden. If the US (or anyone else) had caught him alive, it would probably have been impossible to keep him in a prison without anyone trying to break him out or kill him and harm othersi n the process.

I am not sure if the case of Osama Bin Laden is a good example, but I understand where you are comeing from on this

 

[StThomasMore]

You know... we are a Church who does like to live in the present. Just sayin'...

I'm not a moral relativist so I don't view the Church has being constrained to one era or time or morals being shaped by cultures and eras.

Pope Leo XIII and Pius XII lived in the 20th century too. Or maybe people don't care what past Popes have said, idk?

To say that the Church states the death penalty is never needed would be incorrect and you would have to deny an enormous amount of Church tradition, including the bible and the Roman Catechism too. If you say the death penalty is immoral then you essentially say the bible is immoral too. That's why the Church doesn't make a definitive statement regarding the death penalty and leaves it more open to interpretation, as opposed to abortion or contraception.it would be contrary to Church teaching to say that capital punishment is per se immoral, as some do. Rather, the Pope states that the conditions of modern society argue against it's use in all but rare cases. It is simply becoming harder and harder to argue that a particular act of capital punishment is circumstantially necessary (the third element of a good moral act). The Pope is not substituting his judgment for the political prudence of those who must make decisions about when to use capital punishment. He is teaching principles and making a general evaluation about modern circumstances. Lotsa people fully against the death penalty tend to purposely read into Evangelium vitae and try to pull out things that it doesn't really say. If you read it without an agenda, it would say what it basically says, which is that generally in more modern societies the death penalty is becoming rarer.

The oft made mistake is for people to compare abortion to the death penalty. But if you read the quote from Cardinal Joseph Razinger on the Worthiness to Receive Communion you would know that abortion is different than the death penalty, considering the unborn are not guilty in having not committed any crime, whereas killers and people who commit genocide are already guilty.

As you can see, the Church teaches it may be used in some circumstances, but those circumstances are virtually non-existent.

no, it says rare, if practically non-existent. In a practical society we would not need it. Whether we truly live in a practical society where everyone is safe is up to debate. The Roman Catechism itself says its up the civil authorities whether the death penalty can be applied:

kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which are the legitimate avengers of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord - Roman Catechism

 

[Needing_Grace]

I'm not a moral relativist so I don't view the Church has being constrained to one era or time or morals being shaped by cultures and eras.

Pope Leo XIII and Pius XII lived in the 20th century too.

To say that the Church states the death penalty is never needed would be incorrect and you would have to deny an enormous amount of Church tradition, including the bible too. If you say the death penalty is immoral then you essentially say the bible is immoral too. That's why the Church doesn't make a definitive statement regarding the death penalty and leaves it more open to interpretation, as opposed to abortion or contraception.

The oft made mistake is for people to compare abortion to the death penalty. But if you read the quote from Cardinal Joseph Razinger on the Worthiness to Receive Communion you would know that abortion is different than the death penalty, considering the unborn are not guilty in having not committed any crime, whereas killers and people who commit genocide are already guilty.

Your namesake's history with regard to the death penalty is rather interesting. As Lord Chancellor, he burned many people to death, listening to their screams. Later, after Henry VIII defected from the Church and required loyalty oaths, including a statement that the King of England is head of the Church of England, Sir Thomas More refused and was sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered but the sentence was commuted to beheading because of the King's affection for Sir Thomas. Unlike Sir Thomas, who had the juevos to stand by and watch his victims die, King Henry remained in his palace while Thomas gave his life's blood for Jesus.

That being said, I respect St. Thomas More's willingness to die for the True Faith. I just think it interesting that he martyred a lot of people himself.