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capital punishment in America

Discussion in 'Singles (Only*)' started by trentlogain2, Jun 20, 2010.

death penalty?

  1. yay

  2. nay

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Colin

    Colin Senior Veteran

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    And should we be stoning adulterers and carrying out all the other OT punishments ?
    Should we be fullfilling all the OT rituals and ceremonies ?
    We live in NT times .
     
  2. KarrieTex

    KarrieTex HOOK EM HORNS Supporter

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    Oh please. Another one who takes what they want from the Bible to suit their needs
     
  3. CoachR64

    CoachR64 Awesome, with a side order of amazing

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    It was in the NT where God struck down that couple in church for lying about the money they made from their land sale in their tithing... It was in the NT where Jesus claimed he did not come to bring peace, but a sword.... It was in the NT where the Bible tells us to be weary of our leaders, for they do not carry the sword for nothing....

    Killing, specifically in a Godly manner, is not something exclusive to OT nor was it abolished with with the NT.

    Coach
     
  4. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    The death penalty isn't limited to the Law of Moses, though. It was introduced with Noah after the flood (Genesis 9:6), meaning it is for Jews and Gentiles. And the Apostle Paul of all people says there's a place for it in Romans 13:4.
     
  5. overit

    overit Veteran

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    In reality-it's actually not condemning or condoning in the NT. It can be taken both ways-it's not a black/white issue...thereforth both groups can find support for their position. Her'es some interesting links
    Christianity and the Death Penalty - How Does Christianity Look at the Death Penalty

    WHAT THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES SAY ABOUT THE DEATH PENALTY - CAPITAL PUNISHMEN

    Against the Death Penalty: Christian Stance in a Secular World

    And as well this country is not a theocracy...if we were to abolish it we are simply obeying the new rules of the land-just like many other countries do as well.

    But so we can also get into the discussion about "the gvmnt in place" being established by Him when we have dictators as gvmnts that opress, kill and hurt their own as well.
     
  6. ALiberalTeen

    ALiberalTeen Guest

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    No.
     
  7. overit

    overit Veteran

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    I guess we're lucky Paul didn't meet that fate for his crimes or else we wouldn't have a good portion of the NT to even refer to huh?
     
  8. Tamara224

    Tamara224 Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't really answer the question, though.

    No one ever answers this question. IMHO because it's unanswerable.

    Did right and wrong change between the OT and the NT?

    If it was right for God to institute the death penalty in the OT, then when did it become evil?

    Also... it's true that we don't follow the Law of Moses. It's not true that we don't all follow many of the commandments in the OT.

    We are still not to worship other gods.

    We are still not to covet, commit adultery, murder, or steal.

    The NT didn't make wrong things right or right things wrong. Jesus atoned for our sin, He didn't change the definition of sin.
     
  9. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    In that case, yes. But if he of all people can support the death penalty, then that's good enough for me.
     
  10. overit

    overit Veteran

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    In reality-JESUS did not comment directly on the issue actually....so for us to argue our positions as "what God commanded" or black/white is not logical.
     
  11. KarrieTex

    KarrieTex HOOK EM HORNS Supporter

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    That makes no sense since the entire Bible is God breathed and worthy for teaching, correcting and rebuking. yet another way to exclude this and that for your own reasons.
     
  12. overit

    overit Veteran

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    What doesn't make sense....actually Jesus is silent on many issues...or doesn't take a hard stand either way.

    Just because they obeyed the laws of the land after His atonement does not mean something is "approved of" or "dissaproved of"-Paul had LOTS of disclaimers on things he said by "I , not the Lord" etc...

    I honestly cannot comprehend how some of you cannot accept that others cannot find hard evidence to support either direction and thereforth make their own decision on it. It seems some want to insist this is commanded, approved of in the NT from Christ and so we should ALL agree that the death penalty is inherently the right/good thing.

    I'm not arguing for you or anyone to agree w/my position on it. I'm saying it's a grey area...like many other moral issues. Which leaves people to support/oppose as they feel led/convicted.
     
  13. Colin

    Colin Senior Veteran

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    I hope you I wrong .
    I am not aware that I take what I want from the Bible to suit my needs .
     
  14. KarrieTex

    KarrieTex HOOK EM HORNS Supporter

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    As I quoted from Timothy the ENTIRE Bible is GOD BREATHED, to sit there and say well Jesus didn't say this during the 33 yrs He was on earth is an incredibly lame arguement.
     
  15. MacFall

    MacFall Agorist

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    I believe that only those who have attempted to take a life owe a life. But it is not the responsibility of the victim of or witness to a crime in progress to ascertain the level of violence intended by the criminal. Such responsibility would come afterward in a trial, however.

    More often they just want to get the US government out of their business. And hey guess what, I share that goal with them. You're right though that they often mean American citizens harm, because they are collectivists who, just like most Americans, identify people with the organization that taxes and regulates them. But in that, I find them guilty only of malice toward individuals. Treason is a collectivist notion that reifies an abstraction. I don't care about governments; I care about individual persons.

    Not really. It was more of a last-ditch effort by the Jeffersonian radicals to protect the American people against the power-grabbing Federalists under Alexander Hamilton and Robert Morris. The Crown never had an explicit power to tax or legislate. Those powers were assumed as royal prerogatives, but since they were not constituted powers they were ineffective more often than not. The constitution created the first government in history with explicit powers of confiscation and the ability to create "law".

    I'm not a big fan of the Constitution. To paraphrase Spooner (whom I referenced in that other post of mine), those tyrannies which it has not directly authorized, it has utterly failed to prevent. I don't want us to "go back to the Constitution". I'm holding out for something that actually respects individual rights and takes seriously the idea of the consent of the governed, to start with. And until I get it, I'm not going to passively accept whatever exists in its place.
     
  16. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    It makes sense - but a conservative reading of what Jesus said will indicate he was in agreement with what God commanded in the Old Testament unless he said otherwise. And that John 8:1-11 was an individual act of mercy, rather than a blanket abrogation of the death penalty. I can honestly see both sides of the issue here, but I have shared what's the nail in the coffin for me.

    And I believe that rape and slave trading are heinous enough acts to warrant execution.

    And those terrorists are willing to kill and oppress individual people in order to reach that goal. Helping them is helping those who want to kill and enslave in their mission to kill and enslave. It deserves death.

    Yeah, it enumerated explicit powers in order to limit government. Where you have a king or a dictator, you don't need to enumerate powers, since he just takes them by force rather than by obeying a contract with the people.

    Well, you won't get it unless you move to some nowhere island out in the Pacific. Might as well start packing your bags if you really don't like the benefits of government.
     
  17. MacFall

    MacFall Agorist

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    Oh yes, the old "love it or leave it" argument. Sorry, this is my home, and I'll no more give it to an abusive state than I would to a gang of mobsters. I intend to ignore them where I can, circumvent them when they can't be ignored, and fight them if I must. That's why I'm an agorist.
     
  18. Luther073082

    Luther073082 κύριε ἐλέησον χριστὲ ἐλέησον

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    I think Jesus being merciful to the woman caught in adultry is ment to set a precident that the new covenant is about mercy and not about punishment for sins.

    Now in terms of what that has to say about the death penalty, all I can say is that Jesus knew and acknowledged that by the law that woman deserved death. But by the law we all deserve death hence the "Those of you who have not sinned may cast the first stone."

    For me Jesus wasn't making any comment on the use of the death penalty by the government he was only making an indication of how the new covenant deals with sins as opposed to the old. Its interesting to note that it wasn't really the government who wanted to stone the woman anyways. It was a group of Jewish leaders (Who had no governmental authority under the Romans) who wanted to put her to death to maintain the law of the old covenent. And more so then that, they where interested in trapping Jesus who was stealing all their thunder.

    Basic Sunday school lesson about this is that if Jesus had said "no you can't execute her" then they could get him by claiming he was denying the law of Moses. (Heresy, Apostacy)

    If he had said "Go ahead and stone her" they could turn him into the Roman authorties by saying he told a mob to put her to death without Roman permission.

    Jesus's response of "Those who have not sinned may cast the first stone." is a excellent answer as saying that does not indicate his approval of the execution, nor does it indicate his disapproval. Only that he makes the point that all people who are sinners also deserve death.

    In fact the leaders and the Jews could not in any way let the Roman government discover what they had intended to do because the Romans did not allow them to put people to death without the permission of the Roman Authorties. (What kind of authority would you be if you let every John Doe vigilantie run around dispensing justice?) So the people who wanted to put the woman to death where more of a mob then a government. If anything Jesus is commenting against mob/vigilante justice.

    Jesus had no designs on any sort of government theocracy. Civil and temporal righteousness are the domain of the government. And as part of that domain the power/authority to use the death penalty if necessary. Jesus was concerned with eternal righteousness with God, which is far more important.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2010
  19. Colin

    Colin Senior Veteran

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    To come back to what you and I wrote yesterday .
    You make a sweeping statement supposedly related to what I had written .
    So that you can put me on the right track , please would you quote my words showing where I am another one who takes what they want from the Bible to suit their needs .
    Note I am asking you to quote my words to justify your words .
     
  20. overit

    overit Veteran

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    I suspect crickets. It can't be backed up.
     
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