Can't decide between Christianity and Judaism, help!

[Decanus]

Hi guys, I was just wondering if anybody could help me a little.

My problem is this:

I grew up in a Christian family (Catholic) however I was really the only one that took it seriously. All I relied on when I was younger was Catholic School to get my religious education. I have been a Christian all my life and I love the Christian faith. I love the teachings of Jesus, I love the History, the Worship, the music etc. However, there are some things I find incredibly hard to believe and it has lead me to looking into Judaism.

My main argument is Jesus' claim to be the Messiah. Having looked at the prophecies regarding the Messiag in the old testament, there are many ways in which Jesus simply does not fit the description. There is also the question of Jesus being the son of God. The Messiah was meant to be an ordinary man, not Gods son. The coming of the Messiah was meant to usher in the Messianic age, an age of peace. Jesus did not bring that. Yes there is talk of the second coming, but to me, that just seems like a bit of a cop out. The OT never mentioned a second coming.

Then there is God becoming man in the form of Jesus. Why did God feel the need to make Mary conceive, then spend 9 months growing inside of her, then go through infancy, childhood, adolescence and adulthood when God could have just come down as a man without going through all those stages and wasting so much time? I just don't get why God had to be born in order to come to earth. This makes no sense to me. Also, the word that translates to Virgin, in the Hebrew Bible it actually means "maiden". So the whole concept of the Virgin Birth falls into doubt for me.

Then we have Jesus as a descendant from King David. In those times, as it is a lot of the time now in Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism, ones tribe would be determined by the Mother. It was Joseph who was said to be from the line of David, however since Jesus is the son of God and does not have a biological father, then that would mean Jesus was not a descendant of King David, which the Messiah was said to descend from.

Lastly there is the concept of the Trinity. While I understand the concept in it's simplest explanation, I really find it hard to comprehend further. The OT never mentions such a trinity. It only ever talks about ONE God and ONE essence. However in the New Testament we have the SON of God who actually IS God and then we have the Holy Spirit. 3 parts of the same one God. This to me doesn't seem like pure monotheism. If Jesus WAS God, then who did Jesus pray to? If Jesus WAS God, why did he pray to himself?

I'm not here to bash Christianity, on the contrary i'm hoping someone can explain this to me in a way I can understand and help me believe. I do not want to leave Christianity and go to Judaism without first really truly understanding the religion I was born into and the Religion I love.

I am a Liberal person, so I am open to a wide variety of opinions. My current choice of Church would be Church of England (Anglican) or if I was to convert to Judaism, it would be with the Reform Synagogue. So I am open to any interpretation, explanation, you get the jist

Thanks Guys! I'm going to post this in one or two other forums as well, just in case not many people see it here.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Why Judaism? Why not no religion? Why not Islam?

 

[Decanus]

Why Judaism? Why not no religion? Why not Islam?

Why Judaism?

Well, it is the Religion that really gave birth to Christianity. It is the Mother Religion, so for me it makes much more sense to go back to the Original Religion than say going even further out to Islam. There are many many things I love and agree with Judaism on, so it just makes sense.

Why not no Religion?

Because I firmly believe in God, the Abrahamic God. I don't want to be merely spiritual, but I want and need to be part of a wider community. This is the only way in which my faith will flourish. I've gone it alone before and it just demotivates me too much because I have nobody to share it with.

Why not Islam?

While there are some good things in Islam, I absolutely reject Muhammad as a Prophet and I do not not agree with much of Islams Theology. So that would not be an option for me. Also, as I have stated I am Liberal. Islam is mostly not a very Liberal faith. That's not a criticism for those who want to be Muslim, i'm just saying that's why it isn't right for me.

 

[LilLamb219]

Have you checked out the Messianic Judaism forum here on the site?

 

[Decanus]

Have you checked out the Messianic Judaism forum here on the site?

Yeah I have, the only problem with that is the nearest Messianic Synagogue is 2 Cities away from me and I don't drive. Thank you for the suggestion though!

 

[dcalling]

Hi Proxy,

I have a very similar concern (but I am of atheist background so there are differences).

Here is how I come to this:
1. In OT the messiah is of "prince of peace" etc, talking about no bone been broken, about been rejected, been called "mighty God" (I can't find the passages, but if you know OT well you know they are there), so it does fits into the description of messiah in OT (but not the warrior princes most Jewish people wanted)

2. God can't be seen by man face to face, or we will die. God lead us before, but humans all rebel against God (even after lead the Jews out of Egypt with all the wonders, they build a golden caf right there). So God send a perfect human to show us how it should be done.

3. The trinity part is very hard to understand. My own understanding is, God is one, holy spirit is part of God, and Jesus is one that is filled with God's holy spirit and is the only one who obey God totally (so God is in total control, Jesus sacrifice himself to God). I don't claim the Trinity is wrong though, because that is something I can't understand, I am just trying to put it into something that I could understand.

I even heard one really good pastor (Doug Batchelor) said Jesus is angle Michael. He is an excellent pastor, detailed how Jesus matched a lot of the predictions in the Torah (how all the years added up), very interest to listen to.

And last, Mark 12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these.
Just too beautiful to dismiss.

 

[Arthra]

Roxy...

It's important I think to see how Judaism and Christianity are part of the same ongoing revelation rather than seeing them as competing with one another.. for sure there are doctrinal problems that accrued over time but look for the areas in common and see the advancement of religion as progressive rather than competing...that's what I would urge you to do.

 

[LoAmmi]

And last, Mark 12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these.
Just too beautiful to dismiss.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of it, but what is this supposed to mean? both of these are from the Torah, the first one part of the Shema, and the second one is paraphrasing an earlier rabbinic quote. I agree they are beautiful, but I'm not sure what you mean by dismissing them?

 

[Rationalt]

I'm not going to comment on the rest of it, but what is this supposed to mean? both of these are from the Torah, the first one part of the Shema, and the second one is paraphrasing an earlier rabbinic quote. I agree they are beautiful, but I'm not sure what you mean by dismissing them?

He means the new one.Or Not to dismiss the New emphasis . Enough of my speculation.

 

[Lukaris]

Do you believe Isaiah 53 is the prophecy of Jesus Christ?

see: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 53&version=NKJV


The thing is Jesus Christ simplified the Old Testament into the 2 great commands:


Matthew 22:36-40New King James Version (NKJV)

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


The virtuous part of living according to these are given by the Lord in Matthew 6:1-18 via alms giving, prayer (the Lord's prayer), & fasting. Basic daily conduct is given in the synoptic parables of the rich young man (don't kill, commit adultery, steal etc.). I think the account in Matthew 19:16-23 is the best since the Lord clarifies to the rich young man if he wants to be "perfect" in verse 21, then to sell everything. I think this is the basic framework for the majority of followers (which is enough in light of trying to live this in everyday life). These same basics are outlined by St. Paul in Romans 13:8-11. The Lord called us to believe in Him & to confess our sins to basically cope in our struggle (see Romans 10: 9-13). There is no promise of a Messianic age of peace in this world (see John 16:33).


Re the Trinity:

Then there is also the controversial book of Enoch (written before Christ) which, as far as I can understand, declares the Trinity:


Chapter 48

1In that place I beheld a fountain of righteousness, which never failed, encircled by many springs of wisdom. Of these all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy.

2In that hour was this Son of man invoked before the Lord of spirits, and his name in the presence of the Ancient of days.

3Before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of heaven were formed, his name was invoked in the presence of the Lord of spirits. A support shall he be for the righteous and the holy to lean upon, without falling; and he shall be the light of nations.

4He shall be the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All, who dwell on earth, shall fall down and worship before him; shall bless and glorify him, and sing praises to the name of the Lord of spirits.

5Therefore the Elect and the Concealed One existed in his presence, before the world was created, and for ever.


see: http://reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm#Chapter45



The passage from Enoch expresses the Ancient of Days (the same as in Daniel 7:9-14) as to what is understood as the Father, the Son of Man as also the Son of God, and the Lord of Spirits as the Holy Spirit/

Enoch was written between the tine of the Old & New Testaments and an understanding of Trinity with the above is consistent with a passage from Isaiah 48:16, see;
Isaiah 48:16 New King James Version (NKJV)

16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”


The passage from Isaiah is understood as the Son of God directly speaking of being sent by the Lord God, the Father & His spirit as the Holy Spirit.


The passage from Isaiah is echoed in its fulfillment by St. Paul in Ephesians:


Ephesians 2:18New King James Version (NKJV)

18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.


In the beginning God describes Himself as "Us" :
Genesis 1:26 New King James Version (NKJV)

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[a] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”


Anyway, choose your faith carefully. The same overall promise for redemption is given in both covenants (see Daniel 12:1-4: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel+12:1-4&version=NKJV ) & compare John 5:22-30 (see: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+5:22-30&version=NKJV )

I cannot understand how salvation cannot extend to the non Christian as well as the Christian but the Christian has the Lord as his (her) helper in this life to live by in faith & conduct. The non Christian must live by their virtue as best as possible (see Romans 2).

 

[Delphiki]

Why Judaism?

Well, it is the Religion that really gave birth to Christianity. It is the Mother Religion, so for me it makes much more sense to go back to the Original Religion than say going even further out to Islam. There are many many things I love and agree with Judaism on, so it just makes sense.

Why not no Religion?

Because I firmly believe in God, the Abrahamic God. I don't want to be merely spiritual, but I want and need to be part of a wider community. This is the only way in which my faith will flourish. I've gone it alone before and it just demotivates me too much because I have nobody to share it with.

Why not Islam?

While there are some good things in Islam, I absolutely reject Muhammad as a Prophet and I do not not agree with much of Islams Theology. So that would not be an option for me. Also, as I have stated I am Liberal. Islam is mostly not a very Liberal faith. That's not a criticism for those who want to be Muslim, i'm just saying that's why it isn't right for me.

So, why not any of the religions that preceded Judaism and/or religions from regions of the world other than the middle east? Just curious as to what you find more credible about Abrahamic religion than, say, Hinduism.

 

[danny ski]

This should not be so difficult. Christianity and Judaism are mutually exclusive.

 

[xDenax]

This should not be so difficult. Christianity and Judaism are mutually exclusive.

Agreed. If you are wavering at all, Judaism is not for you.

 

[LoAmmi]

Roxy,

First thing I want to point out is that you do not have to become Jewish. A teaching in Judaism is that the righteous of all nations have a place in the World-to-Come. Becoming a Jew should not be a decision to take lightly. We don't seek converts and for that reason we don't want people converting to leave us and go elsewhere. Only convert if you are 100% sure that is the path you want to take.

If you hold any attachment to Jesus being the Messiah or HaShem Himself, stop right now. (Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars ). You need to have no attachment to those ideas before you decide to convert. Otherwise you're setting yourself up to waver between two things and we don't want that.

If you are or were a Christian, consider speaking to your priest/pastor. See if what they say makes sense to you and, if you remain unconvinced and still want to be a Jew, speak to a rabbi about it. Keep in mind that they are probably going to try to convince you not to convert.

 

[Decanus]

Roxy,

First thing I want to point out is that you do not have to become Jewish. A teaching in Judaism is that the righteous of all nations have a place in the World-to-Come. Becoming a Jew should not be a decision to take lightly. We don't seek converts and for that reason we don't want people converting to leave us and go elsewhere. Only convert if you are 100% sure that is the path you want to take.

If you hold any attachment to Jesus being the Messiah or HaShem Himself, stop right now. (Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars ). You need to have no attachment to those ideas before you decide to convert. Otherwise you're setting yourself up to waver between two things and we don't want that.

If you are or were a Christian, consider speaking to your priest/pastor. See if what they say makes sense to you and, if you remain unconvinced and still want to be a Jew, speak to a rabbi about it. Keep in mind that they are probably going to try to convince you not to convert.

Hi LoAmmi, thank you for your amazing advice.

I know that Jews would say that as long as a Non Jew follows the Noahide commandments, then they will have a place in the world to come, however, I just have the feeling of merely following those rules to be spiritually un-fulfilling.

I agree that I will not decide to convert unless I am fully 100% sure. I would never do that. I am taking it slowly and studying and thinking about what I truly believe.

As for holding an attachment to Jesus as the Messiah, I am a bit uncertain of. The reason being that while I love some of his teachings, there is something in me that will not allow me to see him as the Messiah. So I suppose I have an attachment to him, but not to his claims of being the son of God.

I will hopefully be in touch with a Priest soon. At the moment I am not attending any Church so I don't really have a Priest that I could go to, but I shall look up the local clergy and see where I go from there.

The Rabbi I have been in conversation with invited me come to a Shabbat service last week and I loved it and I will go again as a visitor. I shall do the same with Church also. This is merely to see where I feel God is. You know when you walk into some places and they feel void of God, then you walk into a Church or a Synagogue and you can just feel that God is there? I always look out for that.

The Rabbi was very welcoming and said they will take my conversion seriously should I choose to go ahead, so that's not a problem.

But I will take your advice. I will study, pray and take my time with it. I like to get views from others sometimes because of how overwhelmed I get.

 

[Decanus]

This should not be so difficult. Christianity and Judaism are mutually exclusive.

Agreed. If you are wavering at all, Judaism is not for you.

I think that's a little harsh. One doesn't simply wake up and know everything in Judaism or any religion is true. It takes time to learn and understand, especially when you have grown up in a different faith. These things take time.

 

[gord44]

...

 

[dcalling]

He means the new one.Or Not to dismiss the New emphasis . Enough of my speculation.

Thanks, that is what I meant, sorry totally forget the thread.

 

[dcalling]

This should not be so difficult. Christianity and Judaism are mutually exclusive.

May appear that way from the teachings of the Rabis, but to Christians they are compatible. We study both books and all are considered as word of God.

So from Christians stand point Christianity is just an extension of Judaism, the word of God didn't change.

 

[danny ski]

May appear that way from the teachings of the Rabis, but to Christians they are compatible. We study both books and all are considered as word of God.

So from Christians stand point Christianity is just an extension of Judaism, the word of God didn't change.

Christian point of view means exactly nothing to us, but I understand where you're coming from. It's a stand that many hold, that the differences are cosmetic. Truth of the matter is, the differences are fundamental and gigantic. Judaism is Torah-centric and strictly monotheistic, while Christianity is cult of personality build around a man whom his followers elevated to the position of god- the worst sin in Judaism.