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Canons of Dort No-Straw-Man Challenge

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Hammster, Nov 24, 2020.

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  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I refuted your reply in post #49.

    I am surprised that so many (most?) of the Calvinists I've dealt with are convinced that God chooses who to save APART FROM CONDITIONS.

    Why won't you at least deal with that? You know good and well that TULIP includes "unconditional election".

    So, given your reply in #49, and you have INCLUDED several conditions for salvation, how do you square that?

    This is exactly what you posted in that post:
    "If God chooses someone to be saved, His choice isn’t what saves them. They are still in need of regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc. There are things that need to happen in order for them to be saved.[/QUOTE]
    So, how are regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc NOT conditions for salvation?

    Given your reply, there's MUCH MORE involved that just a choice. YOU have included a number of conditions, IN SPITE of the fact that the U in TULIP is an unconditional election?

    Do you reject the U in TULIP?
     
  2. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Well, you responded. It wasn’t an actual refutation. But regardless, I had already explained the difference.

    Yes, I do.

    Because they are salvation.
     
  3. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Do you understand the people in the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom"
    preceded the people in the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
    [Mat 22:2]? And the GOSPEL of the Jewish Kingdom was
    DIFFERENT... Do you understand that HISTORY (reality)
    confirms this fact? Or do you DENY history/reality?


    Do you understand the people in the Jewish "Kingdom"
    preceded the people in the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
    as revealed in Matthew 13 (in 8 verses) and elsewhere. AND that
    the Christian GOSPEL was DIFFERENT than the Jewish Gospel?
    Are you able to understand HISTORY (reality) confirms this fact?
    Or do you DENY history/reality?


    Do you understand the people in the Christian "Kingdom"
    preceded the people living during the (4th) Great Tribulation
    "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] and the GOSPEL of the
    Great Tribulation (Revelation Beast) was DIFFERENT than the
    Christian Kingdom [Mat 24:15 and 24:33] since the GT saints
    "shall see ALL these things" occurring in the rise-and-fall of
    the Revelation Beast? Or do you DENY this Biblical fact?


    Do you understand the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven"
    [Mat 8:11 and many other verses] does not occur until AFTER
    the Revelation Beast of the Great Tribulation is destroyed?
    Or do you DENY this Biblical fact?


    You see... you can PRETEND that history/reality is wrong,
    but then you only embarrass yourself.



    So tell me... which "Kingdom" and which GOSPEL do you
    think is not part of Biblical Truth and historical fact (reality)...
    please be specific (for a change).


    Jim
     
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    This is exactly what you posted in that post:
    "If God chooses someone to be saved, His choice isn’t what saves them. They are still in need of regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc. There are things that need to happen in order for them to be saved.”
    So, how are regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc NOT conditions for salvation?
    I've never dealt with a more evasive poster than you.

    You said "election is TO salvaton", but you deny that salvation is by election.

    Here's the deal. If God chooses who will be saved, and that without any conditions, that proves that salvation isn't part of the deal. It's only a side effect of the choice, or by product.

    And you STILL don't address that. The Bible is clear that salvation is THROUGH FAITH.

    Paul made that clear in his answer to the jailer on what he MUST DO to be saved; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    So, salvation IS by faith. That is a condition. In fact, THE SOLE CONDITION.

    So, point 2 of TULIP is wrong.

    But you seem blissfully unaware of this.

    You have NOT explained how "election is to salvation" is different from "salvation is by election".

    You are free to imagine anything you want, but that doesn't make it true.
     
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Here's the real problem that you have.
    You seem to think the Bible speaks of "5 kingdoms of heaven".
    Oh, here we go again.

    Listen. You gave a very long list of Bible teaches and scholars to whom you sent your theory about 5 kingdoms to.

    I wonder how many bothered responding to you. Or what they may have said.

    Of course, we'll never know, because I'm pretty sure you wouldn't anyone to know how much your manuscript was ridiculed.

    The fact remains that there isn't another document on the ENTIRE internet about your 5 kingdoms.

    So let's just face the fact that you are quite alone in your theories. 1 person out of the entire human race. And you don't think that's a red flag?

    You may peddle your theories to someone else. I'm not interested.
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    It’s not evasion. You just don’t understand Reformed Theology enough to even have a proper discussion. In other words, you can’t explain Reformed Theology in a way that a Calvinist would. Because of that, my replies seem evasive.
    Using your definition that salvation equals justification, yes I deny that salvation is by election. We are made righteous by faith, not election.

    Let me see if an illustration will help. My wife and I decided to adopt children. That’s the election. But our decision didn’t put our daughter and son into our home. There was a process that happened. But they are now legally our children. But it wasn’t the choice that did it.

    In a similar way, God chose to save some. That choice didn’t save anyone. Things had to happen in order to consider someone to be saved. It’s not a byproduct. It’s that God ordained the means as well as the ends.
    If we are talking justification, I’ve already said over and over that I believe that we are made righteous by faith.
    Maybe you need to look at all of salvation, and not only justification.
     
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Wow, that's an interesting punt. I DO understand reformed theology enough to know that you guys can't explain yourself at all. But you're good at dodging.

    Of course I wouldn't. None of your explanations make any sense.

    Because they are.

    If you simply work your way through your own doctine of election, it is God who chooses who to save, THEN regenerates them so that they will believe (making faith a mere by product/side effect of election). There you have it.

    If you really believe that, there's no hope of any kind of rational discussion. Of course your DECISION to adopt was what put your children in your home.

    Otherwise, whoever ended up there would have been just a random placement.

    Yes, the decision involves processes, but that doesn't change the FACT that the initial CHOICE is what put your children in your home.

    In fact, IF IF IF you hadn't made the decision, would your children have appeared in your home? Of course NOT.

    ONLY because of YOUR OWN CHOICE to adopt them. How can you NOT understand the obvious here?

    That is ludicrous.

    Therefore, His decision is what saved them.

    Still ludicrous.

    So what? It's the DECISION/CHOICE that BEGAN the process and is the factor that results in salvation/adoption. Take your pick.

    You BET it is.

    And there you go. You are admitting what you are denying, all at once. Nice.

    So what does it matter what you say "over and over"? You just keep contradicting your own theology "over and over".

    I think you definitely need to examine your own conflicted theology.

    Here's an example that illustrates that Calvinist salvation is by election.

    In hell, a person could say that they are there ONLY because they weren't chosen for salvation. iow, "God didn't pick me."

    But, that same person would go on to say, "The ONLY reason people are in heaven is because God picked them."

    What you cannot deny is the truth of these words. That's your reformed conflicted theology.

    Your answers prove that.
     
  8. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    So, you understanding is:

    (1) When God chooses who will be saved....

    (2) That proves salvation isn't "part of the deal".

    (3) It's only a side effect of the choice.

    That is hilarious.
    I could not make this stuff up if I tried.
    And yet you actually think you are being logical.

    Yes, when God "chooses" or "elects" who will be saved...
    that salvation is not a "side effect", it is a RESULT of that "election".
    BTW... there is not "deal". There is only God's choice.

    Jim
     
  9. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    It is called the RESULT of that "election", not the "side effect"
    there are no "side effects"... you are just pretending again.


    Jim
     
  10. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Have you NEVER read Romans 9
    God ANSWERS YOU DIRECTLY


    Rom 9:19-20
    Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?
    For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, [Nay, Free Grace]
    who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


    Now, pay attention Free Grace because God explains (to you)
    how things work in HIS CREATION... whether you like it or not,
    whether you think it's "fair" or not.


    Rom 9:21-24
    Hath not the potter [God] power over the clay, [mankind]
    of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, [saved]
    and another unto dishonour?[unsaved] What if God, willing
    to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with
    much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    [those not elected] And that he might make known the riches
    of his glory on the vessels of mercy, [the elect] which he had
    afore prepared unto glory, [elected before the world began]
    Even us, whom he hath called, [all the elect are called by God]
    not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


    There you go....
    God has answered you directly.
    Who are YOU (Free Grace) to question GOD?


    Jim
     
  11. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Can you not READ?
    I said HISTORY (reality) exposes your delusion.



    (1) Do you DENY the Pre-Flood Kingdom preceded the Jewish?
    Of course you cannot DENY history/reality... without looking
    like a total fool.


    (2) Do you DENY the Jewish Kingdom preceded the "church age"?
    Of course you cannot DENY history/reality... without looking
    like a total fool.


    (3) Do you DENY the Christian Kingdom precedes the
    Great Tribulation (Revelation Beast)? Of course you cannot
    DENY history/reality... without looking like a total fool.


    (4) Do you DENY the Great Tribulation precedes establishment
    of the Eternal Kingdom?


    You see... the reason no theologian can REFUTE these Kingdoms
    is because they are not ONLY shown in Scripture, they are shown
    (confirmed) in history/reality.


    But you prove my point.
    You cannot REFUTE this Biblical Truth from Scripture
    And you cannot REFUTE it with history/reality. In fact,
    all you can do is intentionally IGNORE Scripture and history,
    and PRETEND that proves something (besides your ignorance).


    I have told you before... NEVER assume that Biblical Truth
    (or history/reality) is LIMITED to what YOU understand, because
    that is an incorrect assumption that only shows how naive you are.


    All you can do is PRETEND that your DENIAL of Scripture
    and history/reality is NOT the FULFILLMENT of Daniel 12:8-10.
    Clearly, you demonstrate, you are NOT one of those (last saints)
    that "shall understand" Biblical mysteries that God has kept
    "closed-up" and "sealed" until the "time-of-the-end".


    Dan 12:8-10
    And I [Daniel] heard, but I understood not:
    then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
    And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up
    and sealed [to all the saints] till the time of the end. Many
    shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall
    do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand;
    but the wise [the Last Saints] shall understand.


    So there you have it.
    The Bible PROMISES (at the "time of the end") the Last Saints
    "shall understand" Biblical mysteries that remained "closed up"
    and "sealed" to all previous Saints.


    You can DENY what the Bible says, you can IGNORE what the
    Bible PROMISES... but that only means you are PRETENDING
    to yourself - and you are actually FULFILLING what the Bible
    says about "none of the wicked shall understand".


    BTW... if I were you I would remain silent about this subject
    rather then expose yourself as being included in the fulfillment
    of "none of the wicked shall understand". Those words are
    part of Scripture (they are not my words).


    Jim
     
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    If God chooses who will be saved, and that without any conditions, that proves that salvation isn't part of the deal. It's only a side effect of the choice, or by product.
    That is correct. Since God chooses who will be saved, and that UNCONDITIONALLY, it is the choice or election that causes salvation.

    No, I didn't say that. The side effect or by product of God's choice is believing.

    You're rather good at making up stuff. All that stuff about 5 kingdoms.

    I'm sure you are aware that illogical people don't recognize what is logical and what isn't.
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    it is God who chooses who to save, THEN regenerates them so that they will believe (making faith a mere by product/side effect of election).
    Yes, salvation is the result of God's choice/election. But the believing is the side effect or by product. Yet, the Bible is clear that we are saved by faith, not election.
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    In hell, a person could say that they are there ONLY because they weren't chosen for salvation. iow, "God didn't pick me."
    You are still not reading my posts accurately. My argument isn't with the Bible, as you presume, but with YOUR theology.

    But, since you don't believe me, then explain how my example couldn't be said by anyone in hell. And don't give me this jazz about they deserve it. Even believers deserve hell. But since they were elected to salvation (according to Calvinism) those in hell would have an excuse if Calvinism were true. Thank God it isn't true.

    Those in hell have no excuse because they didn't take the free gift of eternal life that has appeared to everyone. Titus 2:11.

    I suggest that YOU pay attention. Calvinism isn't fair because God UNILATERALLY (unconditionally) picks and chooses who to save.

    Yet, the Bible says we are saved by grace (we can't earn nor do we deserve it) THROUGH FAITH.

    Those who believe God's promise of salvation will be saved.

    1 Cor 1:21 proves that salvation is by believing, not election.


    Rom 9:21-24
    Hath not the potter [God] power over the clay, [mankind]
    of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, [saved]
    and another unto dishonour?[unsaved] What if God, willing
    to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with
    much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    [those not elected] And that he might make known the riches
    of his glory on the vessels of mercy, [the elect] which he had
    afore prepared unto glory, [elected before the world began]
    Even us, whom he hath called, [all the elect are called by God]
    not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


    There you go....
    God has answered you directly.
    Who are YOU (Free Grace) to question GOD?


    Jim[/QUOTE]
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Thanks. Now that you’ve demonstrated that you really don’t understand Reformed Theology, there’s no point in continuing. Every argument is a straw man.
     
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Here's the real problem that you have.
    You seem to think the Bible speaks of "5 kingdoms of heaven".
    Oh, just calm down. I have only exposed your farce. You bragged about how many Bible scholars you sent your manuscript to. How many were impressed and congratulated you on your "brilliant" work? Huh?

    I see a pattern here. Denying YOUR fantasies makes one a fool, huh.

    Well, I'd say having the ONLY manuscript on the WHOLE internet about your fantasies is rather foolish.

    Not one other person has commented on your manuscript. Or, if there are any, please share their comments here.

    No, I don't see. Because you haven't shown any theologian who HAS agreed with your fantasies.

    I'm not arguing against history. I AM arguing against YOUR fantasies.

    Esp the one about YOUR "unsaved Christian". That one really takes the cake. lol

    I can easily refute your fantasies. There is no such thing as an "unsaved Christian".

    You are the great pretender, with your so-called 5 kingdoms and unsaved Christians. lol
     
  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    In hell, a person could say that they are there ONLY because they weren't chosen for salvation. iow, "God didn't pick me."
    lol. I nailed your theology. But you don't want to see it.

    Does any person enter heaven on their own merit? No.
    Does every human being deserve hell. Yes.

    So my example proves how out of touch reformed theology is.

    The ONLY REASON (in reformed theology) that a person enters heaven is because they were CHOSEN to enter.

    And that's a fact. My example stands.
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I’ve requested this to be closed. I was hoping to avoid straw men, but that didn’t happen.
     
  19. Grumman Tomcat

    Grumman Tomcat ✡Messianic✞ Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter

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    ADMIN HAT ON
    [​IMG]
    ADMIN HAT OFF
     
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