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Canons of Dort No-Straw-Man Challenge

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Hammster, Nov 24, 2020.

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  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    This is incorrect. You are ignoring the point I am making. I haven't twisted anything.

    YOU admitted that "election is TO salvation". That MEANS (I'm not twisting here) salvation is by election. And you haven't even tried to explain how it isn't.

    I HAVE taken YOUR word for what you believe, which is "election is TO salvation". That's the point. I DO believe that you believe that.

    The problem is that you haven't shown this from Scripture. All you've got is your canons, which didn't prove anything. Word salads don't prove things.

    Scripture proves things. Where is the Scripture that says that election is TO salvation?
     
  2. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    You make a lot of claims, but you stlll haven't proven anything that you claim.
     
  3. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    OK, so I see that you "think" salvation is hereditary.
    Why don't you just read what YOU posted about which babies will go to heaven.

    Interesting. You seem totally unaware of what you post then.

    So, here it is:
    "The verse does say David expects to see his son again.
    I expect to see my dead son again.

    That does not mean (by the furthest stretch of the imagination)
    that ALL BABIES are saved... babies of Jews, babies of Moslems,
    babies of Buddhists, babies of Hindus, babies or Atheists, babies
    of Agnostics, babies of Humanists, babies of Pagans, babies of
    Satanists, etc."

    It is clear by your insinuation that babies of Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, agnostics, humanists, pagans, satanists, etc AREN'T going to heaven.

    If you didn't mean that, you need to explain yourself quite a bit more.

    Just read what you posted.
     
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    The word "faith" is a noun. It is what we BELIEVE that results in our salvation, and what we BELIEVE is what God has said about salvation.

    So, yes, saving faith does come from God. I suppose you have misinterpreted that into my saying trhat God causes people to believe. But I never said that.

    Again, you are missing the point. Regeneration follows faith. Calvinism claims that regeneration is necessary in order to have faith.
     
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    regeneration and indwelling follow salvation.
    I already gave you chapter and verse. This just shows again that you don't read my posts. So why do you bother replying to my posts?

    This is what I posted:
    "Well, how about providing any verse that teaches that faith is the RESULT of regeneration? I know you can't because Eph 2:5 and 8 clearly teach that salvation and regeneration is THROUGH FAITH."

    In v.5 "being made alive" (regeneration) and "have been saved" are equated, meaning they go together. Can't have one without the other.

    v.8 says plainly that salvation is THROUGH FAITH. So this proves that regeneration and salvation follows faith.

    Now, regarding the indwelling of the Spirit, Gal 3:2 and 5 teach when the Spirit indwells.

    2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

    5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

    So, it is clear that the indwelling of the Spirit FOLLOWS believing.
     
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    OK, Jim. Where is the Scripture that SAYS election is to salvation?
    Apparently for you, yes, it is very hard to understand.

    Can you prove that the word "us" which follows "chosen" refers to random unsaved people that God thought of before the foundation of the world? No, you can't. I will answer the question since I know that you won't.

    So, just WHO are the "us" in v.4?

    The answer is found in v.19a as Paul defines who he means by "us".

    "and his incomparably great power for us who believe."

    So, Eph 1:4 teaches that God has chosen BELIEVERS to be holy and blameless.

    Compare this with Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

    So we know that "holy and blameless" isn't about being chosen for salvation, since v.27 refers to the church (already saved).

    1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

    The red words show rthe potential of believers.

    Now, knowing all this, yes, Eph 1:4 is easy to understand. God has chosen believers for service; to be holy and blameless before Him.
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    See the bold part? That’s the straw man. You say that it’s what I believe, which isn’t true. And then you demand I provide scripture to support what I don’t even believe. If you’d like to discuss what I actually believe, that’s fine. But I’m not going to try to support what I don’t believe.
     
  8. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I certainly do.

    Wrong, again. That's the OBVIOUS conclusion FROM YOUR OWN STATEMENT ABOUT ELECTION. I cannot imagine how anyone doesn't see this.

    What isn't true is your claim that I have said that's what you believe. It's extremely clear that you are in total DENIAL of the obvious FACT that what you have claimed about election concludes that salvation is by election.

    I KNOW you reject the conclusion, but it is the OBVIOUS truth. Deal with it.

    Or prove that I'm wrong. Explain how it's not an obvious conclusion.

    The conclusion is obvious.

    I'm way beyond what you claim to believe. I'm pointing out the obvious conclusions about what you believe.

    Stating that election is TO salvation, the OBVIOUS CONCLUSION is that salvation is by election.

    The fact that you don't believe this merely reveals your complete misunderstanding of what your statement concludes.

    Remember the whole doctrine: reformed election is "unconditional". So when you say "election is TO salvation", you are saying (whether you realize it or not) that salvation is unconditional.

    Yet the Bible teaches the exact opposite; that salvation is by believing in Christ.

    So, believing in Christ IS the SOLE condition for salvation.

    And, amazingly, you seem oblivious to all this.
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I’m have to conclude that you don’t understand what a straw man is.

    Straw man - Wikipedia
     
  10. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    No, I have not proven anything.... the SCRIPTURE has.
    Tell me, what kind of man INTENTIONALLY IGNORES Scriptures
    that contradict his doctrines?

    Of course the answer is NOT real saints (saved "wheat") since
    that is not the "fruit" of a good tree. The answer can only be
    "babes in Christ" that need much correction or unsaved "tares"
    (sown by Satan) who show the "fruit" of not submitting to the
    Words of God.

    Let me know when you can show the "fruit" of a real saint
    by addressing the Scriptures (below) that you have already
    ignored TWICE. And remember, when you reject or ignore
    Scriptures (without any commentary) you are not ignoring
    MY WORDS, you are intentionally ignoring the Words of God.
    Again, what kind of man ignores the Words of God?


    ----------------- From the original post ------------------


    Once again you open your mouth and demonstrate for all to see
    that you don't understand Scripture. You expose you do not have
    "ears to hear". You don't really KNOW what the Bible teaches,
    you only know what you WANT the Bible to teach. It takes
    less than 1 minute to prove this:


    Mat 13:8-9
    But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit,
    some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
    Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


    Mat 7:17-19
    Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit;
    but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
    and cast into the fire.


    Mat 12:33
    Either make the tree good, and his fruit good;
    or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt:
    for the tree is known by his fruit.


    John15:5
    I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me,
    and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:
    for without me ye can do nothing.


    John 15:8
    Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit;
    so shall ye be my disciples


    John15:16
    Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,
    and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
    and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask
    of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


    Now that you have embarrassed yourself (again) with your
    arrogant behavior ("fruit") while NOT knowing what the Bible
    teaches ("fruit") you may want to do some research on the
    subject before exposing your lack of Biblical understanding.
    If you were only to use a concordance to look-up every time
    the Scriptures use the word "fruit" you would see there are
    about 50 verses in which "fruit" applies to the believers...
    in direct contradiction to your (false) doctrine.


    Or, you could just continue to PRETEND that your "feelings"
    or you limited knowledge of Scripture determines Biblical Truth.
    You can continue to show BAD "fruit".


    Jim
     
  11. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Oh, "free grace" understands very well what a "strawman" is...
    his "fruit" is to intentionally ignore the Word of God and to construct
    strawment to support his heretical teachings. That is NOT an accident.
    It is a strategy. It is the "fruit" that he shows consistantely.

    His very name "free grace" is a strawman because his synergistic
    gospel demands that men DO something ("work") before they get
    "Grace"... showing it is not "free" at all. Isn't that ironic?


    Jim
     
  12. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Eph 1:4-5
    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
    of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before
    him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
    by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,



    There are no "random" people... that is just ANOTHER strawman
    that you construct to save face. The people who are "chosen"
    or "elected" are very SPECIFIC people God decides will be part
    of "His Sheep" ( as we are "chosen us in Him" before the world)



    Since the SCRIPTURE (not me) says "us" and "we" are chosen
    to be "in Him" before he foundation of the world and to be
    "Holy and without blame" and to be "predestinated... unto
    the adoption of children... by Jesus Christ to Himself
    " ...
    even unsaved Moslems and Hindus and Buddhists and Atheists
    and Agnostics and Humanists and Pagans can easily understand
    the "us" and the "we" refers to those "chosen" to be part of
    "His Sheep"... (not some "random" people as you suggest)
    so I really must wonder WHY what is obvious to un-believers
    is still a mystery to you?


    But, I do not want you to remain in your darkness and confusion,
    so, here is another SCRIPTURE to explain who the "us" and "we"
    represent. How embarrassing for you - that you do not know
    the most fundamental and essential elements of the Gospel.


    Rom 8:28-31
    And we know that all things work together for good to them
    that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed
    to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many
    brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
    and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things?
    If God be for us, who can be against us?


    And so, you need not remain confused in darkness and delusion
    because the SCRIPTURES tell us the "us" and "we" of Eph 1:4-5
    are NOT some "random" group (as you suggest), instead they
    are the SAME PEOPLE called "us" and "we" and "them" and
    "whom" (specifically) predestined to be part of "His Sheep".


    Here is a little basic and essential information (normally needed
    by "babes in Christ" that allows you to understand the CONTEXT
    of Scriptures. Because, if you cannot discern the context of any
    passage you have no hope of understanding the MEANING... and
    can easily (do as you did) assume the context is "random" people,
    promoting your darkness and confusion.


    The Bible separates all men into one of three different categories:
    (1) Saved "wheat" in the church, sown by God and
    (2) Unsaved "tares" in the church, sown by Satan and
    (3) Lost souls OUTSIDE the church ("children of Satan" like #2)


    So... whenever you come across a passage like Ephesians 1:4-5
    (above), you NEVER NEED to wonder what "random people" are
    the CONTEXT of the Scripture... it has to be #1 or #2 or #3.
    That should help eliminate the darkness and confusion that
    causes you to think Scripture applies to "random people".


    Jim
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I've already concluded that you seem unable to recognize what is plainly obvious.

    So, can you explain how the statement "election is TO salvation" is materially different than "salvation is by election"?
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    You make a lot of claims, but you stlll haven't proven anything that you claim.
    Well, thank you for agreeing with me. My point exactly.
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Again?
     
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    OK, Jim. Where is the Scripture that SAYS election is to salvation?
    So, what words clearly indicate that "God hath chosen us "for salvation" in these 2 verses? I am not seeing any mention of salvation at all.

    And please define specifically who the "us" refers to, since you colored and bolded it several times. Surely you must know.

    I'm not interested in your opinions, no offense.

    I am interested in what Paul meant by his use of "us". Paul never spoke of "sheep" so your comment is totally irrelevant and off the mark.

    Paul defined SPECIFICALLY who he meant by "us" in v.4 in v.19a - and his incomparably great power for us who believe.

    Very simple. Eph 1:4 is a statement about God having chosen or elected BELIEVERS "to be holy and blameless".

    Election is to service, not salvation.

    And here is where you (and most likely all other Calvinists) have gone way off the rails.

    The verse DOESN'T say "to be 'in Him'". That's where you are wrong. The words "in Him" is a parenthetical phrase, that further defines who the "us" are.

    So, Paul was telling us that "God has chosen US (believers) (who are) in Him".

    As to the purpose of this election, rather than the parenthesis, you have to read beyond the "before the foundation of the world" to find it.

    Here it is: For he chose us (believers) (who are) in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

    The red words are the purpose clause for WHAT God chose believers for.

    By misreading the verse, and thus misunderstanding the purpose of God's election in this verse, you have totally messed up the verse. It says nothing of what you think it says.

    Oh no. No, you don't. You can just remove your "and". It doesn't exist in the verse.

    The singular purpose of God's election of us (believers) is TO BE holy and blameless.

    That's what He chose us (believers) to be.

    Want more evidence? Sure.

    Eph 5-
    25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
    26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
    27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

    These verses are about the "church", in the biblical sense. Meaning, that the body of Christ are only saved people. And God wants her (the church, saved people) to be holy and blameless.

    More evidence? Sure.

    1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

    If you want to align yourself with these people, that's your problem. But anyone who understands English can see easily that "sheep" are not found anywhere in Eph.

    Here's the real problem that you have.

    You seem to think the Bible speaks of "5 kingdoms of heaven". Yet, the ONLY document on the entire internet is yours.

    That means there are NO scholars who agree with you. Or there would be other sites and documents about them. You are quite alone in your opinions.

    Secondly, even though you admit that in eternity, there are only 2 places of existence, one for the saved and one for the unsaved, you have artificially created a third, and very weird category, the "unsaved Christian", which is an oxymoron.

    According to the Bible Christians are saved people. Everyone else is unsaved. Period.
     
  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    I've already concluded that you seem unable to recognize what is plainly obvious.

    So, can you explain how the statement "election is TO salvation" is materially different than "salvation is by election"?
    I have no idea what your question is in regard to. Other than you just don't want to face the problem you have of trying to explain how the first statement is materially different than the second statement.

    So, since either you can't do it, or are just too uncomfortable to try it, it's ok to just bow out and save face.
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I thought the question was clear. I’ll try again.


    Are you wanting me to tell you again?
     
  19. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    So, can you explain how the statement "election is TO salvation" is materially different than "salvation is by election"?
    Yes, my question is clear. But as to "again", no, how about just once, for once.

    Please explain how "election is TO salvation" is materially different than "salvation is by election".

    Thank you in advance.
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Here you go.
     
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