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Canons of Dort No-Straw-Man Challenge

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Hammster, Nov 24, 2020.

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  1. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    It was spiritual death that leads to the Second Death (Lake of Fire)
    ... unless you have a Savior and are "born again"... which is being
    translated OUT of spiritual death and INTO eternal life.



    Yes, all men experience the Second Death, unless they
    have a Savior and are "born again". Again we see WHY
    any doctrine must harmonize with ALL RELATED verses...
    and not just one or two selected verses.
    Christian theology 101 (again).



    All men will experience the Second Death (when cast into the
    Lake-of-Fire)... unless they have a Savior and are "born again".
    Do you see WHY we cannot design doctrines based on one or
    two verses? Before we can even PRETEND to have found some
    Biblical Truth we must be able to harmonize ALL RELATED verses.


    Most heresies are built on one or two verses.
    All good lies need some truth.


    That is why the ONLY MEASURE of Biblical Truth is harmony
    of ALL RELATED Scripture... not just a few select verses.
    This is Christian Theology 101.



    What do you imagine the Atonement was?
    It was Jesus PAYING for our (the saints) sins.


    Our (the saints) sins were NOT PAID by Jesus' physical death.
    He had to SUFFER for each of our (saints) sins to PAY them,
    so that we need not... that is what a "Savior" does, he PAYS
    for our sins. He is our "sin substitute" because He did what
    we would have had to do... if we had no Savior.



    In a sense... Christ experienced it FOR US so we need not...
    again, that is what a Savior or "sin substitute" does. However,
    we were "in Him" (both in His death and resurrection), so in that
    sense
    we did experience what He did.


    I wonder WHY it is so hard for you to understand that ALL MEN
    must experience the Second Death (Lake of Fire) unless they
    have a Savior that already did that FOR THEM?


    Jim
     
  2. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    But we are talking about those God CREATED to be
    "vessels of mercy" and others CREATED to be
    "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction".

    Deal with that.
    It does not take a 5000 word essay.


    Jim


    BTW... Romans 9 was BUILT on Romans 8...
    which deals with the salvation of all "His sheep",
    both Jew and Gentile. Romans 9 uses Jews as the
    example because (wait for it....) before Christ came
    God was saving ONLY Jews, but after Christ came God
    was saving both Jew and Gentile.

    Rom 9:24
    Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only,
    but also of the Gentiles?

    You only need 5000 words to conflate what Romans 8 and 9 say.
    You need very few words to explain what they actually say.

    .
     
  3. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    So you think that saving "faith" is produced by (DEAD) men
    BEFORE regeneration. That is a just another "works gospel"
    or a "boaster's gospel". It is the synergistic heresy that is
    the BROAD WAY that leads MANY (false) "Christians"
    into destruction.


    Whereas understanding "faith" is the RESULT (not the cause)
    of regeneration is the narrow way that leads Christians into
    eternal life and FEW find it.


    The vast majority of the churches (and "Christians")
    follow the synergistic heresy, while the minority of Christians
    follow the Gospel of the Bible, which is a monergistic Gospel.


    Jim
     
  4. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    And, in the WHOLE BIBLE this is the best "proof" you can find.
    That is hilarious.

    The verse does say David expects to see his son again.
    I expect to see my dead son again.

    That does not mean (by the furthest stretch of the imagination)
    that ALL BABIES are saved... babies of Jews, babies of Moslems,
    babies of Buddhists, babies of Hindus, babies or Atheists, babies
    of Agnostics, babies of Humanists, babies of Pagans, babies of
    Satanists, etc.

    When you have a SCRIPTURE that says (all) babies are saved,
    then (and only then) can you preach that as Gospel Truth...
    until then you are just stating your "interpretation" of
    a single (vague) reference.

    Do you pretend all the babies in SODOM were saved...
    even though God said less than TEN people were
    righteous?

    Jim
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster Kill the dragon. Save the girl. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I know what you are saying. It’s a straw man. This is a no straw men thread. So I’ll wait for an actual argument based on what I actually believe.
     
  6. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    LOL, the entire synergistic heresy is built on a strawman.

    .
     
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Here's another example of failing to understand Scripture. In Matt 7, it is the false teachers who are known by their fruit. The Bible NEVER says that about believers.
    You just don't like being corrected.
     
  8. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Here's another example of failing to understand Scripture. In Matt 7, it is the false teachers who are known by their fruit.
    Not possible. You're the one needing lots of correction.
     
  9. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    The canons have no Scripture that backs up their claims.
    Not really. I think it's rather sad, myself. That Calvinists cling to their canons but have no evidence from Scripture to back up their canons or claims.

    OK, Jim. Where is the Scripture that SAYS election is to salvation? That's what I've been asking for a long time.

    Are you able to provide any verses?
     
  10. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Go ahead and keep talking about your 'tons' of Scripture, but you have YET to provide any that support your own claims.
     
  11. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    No offense here, but how do you even know what's "deep enough"?

    Wrong again. The regeneration and indwelling follow salvation.

    And, it was in error.
     
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I'd say apparently not. If you do, why do you continue ignoring what I am saying?

    You may repeat yourself all you want. But since you won't deal with my points, you're in no position to tell others what's a straw man.

    lol. You told me what you believe. That "election is TO salvation". And you CAN'T show men any verses that teach that. So who's got the straw man here?
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    No, I reject that nonsense.

    Saving faith is is the faith that saves. And the saving comes from God alone.

    Well, how about providing any verse that teaches that faith is the RESULT of regeneration? I know you can't because Eph 2:5 and 8 clearly teach that salvation and regeneration is THROUGH FAITH.
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    The Bible clearly indicates that David was convinced that he would join His week old son by Bathsheba some day. 2 Sam 12:23.
    Do you have anything better?

    When you catch your breath from lol, please explain what you think David meant by what he said.

    OK, so I see that you "think" salvation is hereditary. How interesting. Babies of agnostics, etc, can't go to heaven. Very interesting indeed.

    And about as WRONG as you can get.

    But then again, you erroneously "think" that Christ didn't die for everyone. So I understand your error.

    Actually, you have just placed yourself in the position to DEFEND your own claim, that babies of certain types of people won't be saved.

    Why do you "think" salvation is based on the righteousness of parents? Where do you get your weird ideas?

    I believe that everyone who dies BEFORE reaching the point of knowing to choose the good rather than the evil (Isa 7) will be saved.

    And you can't prove otherwise.
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Kill the dragon. Save the girl. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Yes, I told you what I believe. Your twisting of of what I believe is the straw man. If I say that I disagree with your understanding of what I believe, it would be good to take my word for it.
     
  16. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Right... you think that I wrote the Scriptures below (that you ignored).
    You made a false statement... I provided MANY SCRIPTURES that
    contradicted your false statement and you then PRETEND
    that you are correcting me (instead of Scripture).
    That is some "strong delusion" buddy.
    Here are the Scriptures again...
    do you "correct" Scripture?


    I cannot imagine how strong your delusion is to actually PRETEND
    the SCRIPTURES below are my words instead of the Words of God.



    ----------------- From the original post ------------------


    Once again you open your mouth and demonstrate for all to see
    that you don't understand Scripture. You expose you do not have
    "ears to hear". You don't really KNOW what the Bible teaches,
    you only know what you WANT the Bible to teach. It takes
    less than 1 minute to prove this:


    Mat 13:8-9
    But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit,
    some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
    Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


    Mat 7:17-19
    Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit;
    but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
    and cast into the fire.


    Mat 12:33
    Either make the tree good, and his fruit good;
    or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt:
    for the tree is known by his fruit.


    John15:5
    I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me,
    and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:
    for without me ye can do nothing.


    John 15:8
    Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit;
    so shall ye be my disciples


    John15:16
    Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,
    and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
    and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask
    of the Father in my name, he may give it you.



    Now that you have embarrassed yourself (again) with your
    arrogant behavior ("fruit") while NOT knowing what the Bible
    teaches ("fruit") you may want to do some research on the
    subject before exposing your lack of Biblical understanding.
    If you were only to use a concordance to look-up every time
    the Scriptures use the word "fruit" you would see there are
    about 50 verses in which "fruit" applies to the believers...
    in direct contradiction to your (false) doctrine.


    Jim
     
  17. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    No... that is what you WANT to "see"... but that is not
    what I said. Again you are diminished into constructing
    strawmen in order to save face. Very sad.


    Jim
     
  18. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    So you admit that:

    (1) Saving faith comes from God alone and

    (2) Regeneration is THROUGH that Faith that God gives


    Jim
     
  19. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    And what Scripture (chapter and verse) teaches that?

    Jim
     
  20. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Eph 1:4-5
    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
    of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before
    him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
    by Jesus Christ to himself
    , according to the good pleasure of his will,


    Now... that was not so hard, was it?


    Jim
     
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