Canadian Health Care We So Envy Lies In Ruins, Its Architect Admits

Dale

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Jayem in post #42:
"It's been shown time and time again that he usual supply and demand calculus doesn't work in medicine. The more orthopedists in a city, the more hip and knee replacemements are done. The more MRI scanners in an area, the more MRIs are ordered. Even if the unit cost goes down, the total cost increases. Areas with more hospital beds almost always have higher hospitilization rates."

Yes, supply creates demand. In the Atlanta area there are three large hospitals on one corner. Do you think any of these hospitals is going to send a patient to the competition for a medical test just because it would be cheaper than buying expensive medical equipment?
 
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Interesting. I honestly think that maybe free health care for everyone isn't really the way to go but instead lowering health care costs and insurance costs is the way to go. Make it affordable for everyone. It is very sad that so many people can't even afford basic health care. :(
 
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Interesting. I honestly think that maybe free health care for everyone isn't really the way to go but instead lowering health care costs and insurance costs is the way to go. Make it affordable for everyone. It is very sad that so many people can't even afford basic health care. :(

Unfortunately, there are so many limitations on health insurance that there is lil' protection for a serious illness or injury.


= Illuminatus
Great links. It's also worth pointing out that medical costs account for roughly half of bankruptcies filed every year in the United States - around 750,000, affecting about 2 million people per year.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...tcy_study.html

= Illuminatus
Something else from that study that might interest some of the individuals in this thread:

= consumeraffairs link
Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by illness had health insurance. More than three-quarters were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. However, 38 percent had lost coverage at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy. [...] Today's health insurance policies -- with high deductibles, co-pays, and many exclusions -- offer little protection during a serious illness. Uncovered medical bills averaged $13,460 for those with private insurance at the start of their illness. People with cancer had average medical debts of $35,878.
 
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jsn112

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For doc appointments? Nuh-uh. Maybe you'd be waiting in line for an MRI, but not an appointment with your doc as you so strenuously asserted. You don't have the faintest clue what you're talking about. I live here. I use the Medical system. And if it was as broken as you say I'd be the first one condemning it. What about that don't you get?

Yeah there are wait lists. Same as in the US. The difference is the reason for placement on the wait list between our two countries. In Canada its triage-style - those most needing of help get it first. (my Dad in 2000 went to the hospital complaining of abdominal pain in 2000. He was diagnosed with a tumour in his large intestine, and was operated on 2 days later - if he'd gone in complaining of a hernia it could welll have been 6 weeks before an operation) In the US those most able to pay get it first. Yeah, sign me up for your system.
If the wait is the "same" as the US, funny how we only hear the Canadians complainning about it. Even your government has to send out an apology letter if you happen to die when waiting for too long. That's a fact.
And when did you take me off ignore? You made a big show of saying additions to your supposedly lengthy ignore list were permanent. ^_^
What are you talking about?! No one is on my ignore list. I don't keep an ignore list. If I haven't put CCGirl on the list, why would I put you on it?
 
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jsn112

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Did you read the pages posted? The average wait times are comparable to many middle-income families in developed nations, even in America, and in fact people who in America would not get treatment at all are able to get it or who must jump through red-tape hoops or insurance court battles would be able to get the treatment if they lived in Canada with a lot less hassle.

People with serious illnesses get first dibs, something that is pretty common pretty much everywhere, so yes, there can be waitlists for those with less serious ailments. If someone goes in to a hospital with stomach pain and it's appendicitis, they get treated right away. If someone goes in with stomach pain from indigestion, they get put on the waiting list to see a gastrenterologist, because the specialist has more serious cases to treat first.

From one of your own links:



From http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/82-575-XIE/82-575-XIE2006002.htm

Yes, wait times need to be reduced. But even the links you posted to show how dire the situation is shows that it isn't actually dire. It needs to be fixed, yes. But it's far from the idea that a person has to wait three months to see a family doctor when most can call up and get an appointment for that week, and specialists range from a few days to a few weeks.

In fact, anyone can go to a local walk-in clinic any day and get treatment for minor emergencies, like a few stitches or for treatment of a broken wrist or any variety of services. Same-day treatment is so common it's not even talked about as an issue.

The term "diagnostic tests" also needs to be defined: for instance, a person with a broken wrist gets an x-ray when they go in that day; blood tests can be done any time labs are open, as most of them are walk-in and open 5-7 days a week.

Dogs may know the "fact" that Canadians have "long waits" for services, but dogs also know the "fact" that it's fun to roll around in smelly kitchen waste.

Canada's system isn't perfect, but it isn't "in ruins" by any stretch. Some of the problems - such as joint replacement waiting lists - have as much to do with population changes as anything else.
I thought the Canada's system was PERFECT. But it still didn't answer the question as to why more and more people are going to Canada's private clinics and the US. Privatization is supposed to be illegal up there, isn't it? Wouldn't it defeat the purpose if more and more people go to privatize clinics rather than your National health system?
 
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Illuminatus

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I thought the Canada's system was PERFECT.

No one here said that. The only way in which it could be perceived as perfect is in comparison to a system in which, say, people who have insurance end up with over $35,000 in debt if they get cancer.

But it still didn't answer the question as to why more and more people are going to Canada's private clinics and the US. Privatization is supposed to be illegal up there, isn't it? Wouldn't it defeat the purpose if more and more people go to privatize clinics rather than your National health system?

I thought we addressed this. Privatized services in Canada are mostly diagnostic in nature. Why has the number of people going to private services and the US gone up? Because the population is aging, more medical tests are being done in general, and common sense will tell you that that means the usage of private/OOC services will increase.

And I'm not sure where you got this idea that everyone and their neighbour are rushing to the United States to get treatment. I know no-one who has ever gone to the US for treatment. I, in fact, have never directly (eg. friend of a friend, family member of friend, etc.) heard about anyone who's gone to the US for treatment. Leaving the country to pay for your treatment is pretty rare.

If the wait is the "same" as the US, funny how we only hear the Canadians complainning about it.

It's an easy media sell. The funny thing comes when you delve deeper into surveys, and find that a lot of people believe that they should be able to see a doctor the same day they call, and that anything beyond that is waiting too long. What really matters is not whether people get to see a doctor when they think they should be able to, it's whether the people who need to see a doctor get to see a doctor. And as the statistics posted in this thread show, the Canadian healthcare system is pretty good at that.
 
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?! No one is on my ignore list. I don't keep an ignore list. If I haven't put CCGirl on the list, why would I put you on it?

My bad, I was thinking of another poster with a very similar name. I was also a littler rude than I would normally have been because I was mixing you up with him - he's a bit of a jackass. My apologies. :blush:
 
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SallyNow

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If the wait is the "same" as the US, funny how we only hear the Canadians complainning about it. Even your government has to send out an apology letter if you happen to die when waiting for too long. That's a fact.

Have you turned on the news lately? Then you've seen the stories regarding American waitlists.

It's also hard to complain of being on a waitlist when you are recieving no medical care at all, and there are millions of people in America without any healthcare coverage. That's a fact.

It's also a well-known fact that there are thousands and thousands of lawsuits each year in the USA against HMOs and insurance companies. That's a fact.

It's also a fact that over 500,000 people in America go bankrupted because of medical costs. Many of those people were insured.

The Canadian government can be polite, that's a fact. (except for the greatest of Canadian Prime Minsters, Pierre Trudeau he often cut right to the chase while still being a gentleman. Quite the accomplishment!)


I thought the Canada's system was PERFECT.

Who said that? What is this, a system is either perfect or in complete ruins? That would also mean America's system, and lack thereof, are in complete ruins; in fact, that most of the systems outside of central and northern Europe are in complete ruin.

But thankfully complicated systems are not judged on a PERFECT or COMPLETE RUIN scale. That would leave millions dying on the street. That's not happening in North America. Why? Because Canada's system, though flawed, is still good, still gets the job well done for everyone, and has excellent research. The USA's system gets the job done very well for the rich, well done for the middle-class, okay for the poor, but often neglects the working poor.



But it still didn't answer the question as to why more and more people are going to Canada's private clinics and the US.

First off, you have no proof of the "more and more" part. Well, by definition there are more going to private clinics, because there now are now some user-pay clinics.

Second, your question has been answered many times in this very thread, but I'll sum the answers up:

SallyNow said:
Did you read the pages posted? The average wait times are comparable to many middle-income families in developed nations, even in America, and in fact people who in America would not get treatment at all are able to get it or who must jump through red-tape hoops or insurance court battles would be able to get the treatment if they lived in Canada with a lot less hassle.

People with serious illnesses get first dibs, something that is pretty common pretty much everywhere, so yes, there can be waitlists for those with less serious ailments. If someone goes in to a hospital with stomach pain and it's appendicitis, they get treated right away. If someone goes in with stomach pain from indigestion, they get put on the waiting list to see a gastrenterologist, because the specialist has more serious cases to treat first.

The waitlists to see a specialist range from a few days to a few weeks for those with non-life-threatening illnesses.

Illuminatus said:
It's an easy media sell. The funny thing comes when you delve deeper into surveys, and find that a lot of people believe that they should be able to see a doctor the same day they call, and that anything beyond that is waiting too long. What really matters is not whether people get to see a doctor when they think they should be able to, it's whether the people who need to see a doctor get to see a doctor. And as the statistics posted in this thread show, the Canadian healthcare system is pretty good at that.

And there are many other answers to your questions, totally debunking your thesis statements, throughout this thread. If you are not reading them the first or second time, why should I post them a third or fourth time?




jsn112 said:
Privatization is supposed to be illegal up there, isn't it?

This has been explained. Please read the posts that have already been posted.

Wouldn't it defeat the purpose if more and more people go to privatize clinics rather than your National health system?

National health system? Do you mean the NHS of Britian? Because they to cover everyone, but are not perfect, and are having to adjust to different population stats. I can't really comment more about the NHS because I don't know much more about the NHS.

Canada's system is a universal health care system. It's set up so provinces can be flexible to the changing needs of the population. However, having a huge, aging but active 50-90 year old demographic is creating some extra need for flexibility that is taking a few years to work out.

The main reason for user-pay clinics is for the diagnosis of minor health concerns that are irritating but not life-threatening or life-altering.

For instance, a doctor in a regular clinic will do all the blood tests and x-rays to see if the pain a person's neck is cancer. It turns out it's an old sports injury. The person can go to psysiotherapy right away for relief and treatment. However, if they want to get the exact nerve and muscle located, they will either have to wait a few weeks for a more advanced imaging system, because their problem is in no way life-threatening, or they can go to a user-pay clinic.
 
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IisJustMe

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Have you turned on the news lately? Then you've seen the stories regarding American waitlists.
Yes, and if you've read them, then you know it is not a matter of a shortage of doctors and facilities to do transplants, as is the case with Canada. Our waitlists are strictly transplant related. I can see a doctor today if I need to, and it's Saturday. As to transplants in the US, the waitlists are a matter of a shortage of organs. After a ten-year growth in organ donor sign-up, there was a shortfall of organ donors in 2007, when the wait list hit 97,760 on December 31. As of Monday this week, it was at 99,132. It is disingenuous of you to make a comparison of the two countries without explaining there are different reasons for waitlist growth, and they aren't even the same kind of waitlist.
It's also hard to complain of being on a waitlist when you are recieving no medical care at all, and there are millions of people in America without any healthcare coverage. That's a fact.
Also disingenuous. Catastrophic health care will be denied no one in this country. If someone has a terminal or life-threatening illness and is not getting health care, it is not because it has been denied. It is because they don't believe they can seek it without health insurance, Medicaide or Medicare. That simply isn't true. Every state in the US requires a certain amount of pro bono health care of every hospital and clinic it licenses. Health care is always available from the greatest health care system in the world, and that is the US, whether there are some who would deny that or choose to believe Michael Moore or not.
It's also a well-known fact that there are thousands and thousands of lawsuits each year in the USA against HMOs and insurance companies. That's a fact.
... which has nothing to do whatsoever with the level of health care available, only that which is provided those who are covered by HMOs or health insurance that are bean counters instead of health care providers. Left out of your statement is that there are literally hundreds of millions of claims handled fairly and without delay, and some by the very same companies that would be included in your list of lawsuits. Thousands of those claims you mention as being in litigation are bogus claims and will never see trial.
It's also a fact that over 500,000 people in America go bankrupted because of medical costs. Many of those people were insured.
Many of these people were poorly prepared for economic difficulty in their lives, too, as are most Americans. An analysis of the bankruptcies filed in 2001, for example, showed that 56% of the bankruptices were middle class families, meaning their income was between $50,000 to $100,000.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html

But their average uncovered medical costs were only $13,460. Anyone who has ever taken a family economics course knows there should be an emergency fund of at least three months' income available to cover those emergencies. That would be $12,500 to $25,000 for these families, which would significantly reduced those uncovered costs. People don't save. That's why there were two million bankruptcies filed in 2001. People live beyond their means and then wonder why they can't make ends meet. By the way, that article says half the bankruptcies filed that year were "medically related" which is much more than 50,000. However, most bankruptcies in this country are due to poor financial planning, not medical costs.
 
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Yes, and if you've read them, then you know it is not a matter of a shortage of doctors and facilities to do transplants, as is the case with Canada. Our waitlists are strictly transplant related. I can see a doctor today if I need to, and it's Saturday. As to transplants in the US, the waitlists are a matter of a shortage of organs. After a ten-year growth in organ donor sign-up, there was a shortfall of organ donors in 2007, when the wait list hit 97,760 on December 31. As of Monday this week, it was at 99,132. It is disingenuous of you to make a comparison of the two countries without explaining there are different reasons for waitlist growth, and they aren't even the same kind of waitlist.Also disingenuous. Catastrophic health care will be denied no one in this country. If someone has a terminal or life-threatening illness and is not getting health care, it is not because it has been denied. It is because they don't believe they can seek it without health insurance, Medicaide or Medicare. That simply isn't true. Every state in the US requires a certain amount of pro bono health care of every hospital and clinic it licenses. Health care is always available from the greatest health care system in the world, and that is the US, whether there are some who would deny that or choose to believe Michael Moore or not. ... which has nothing to do whatsoever with the level of health care available, only that which is provided those who are covered by HMOs or health insurance that are bean counters instead of health care providers. Left out of your statement is that there are literally hundreds of millions of claims handled fairly and without delay, and some by the very same companies that would be included in your list of lawsuits. Thousands of those claims you mention as being in litigation are bogus claims and will never see trial.Many of these people were poorly prepared for economic difficulty in their lives, too, as are most Americans. An analysis of the bankruptcies filed in 2001, for example, showed that 56% of the bankruptices were middle class families, meaning their income was between $50,000 to $100,000.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html

But their average uncovered medical costs were only $13,460. Anyone who has ever taken a family economics course knows there should be an emergency fund of at least three months' income available to cover those emergencies. That would be $12,500 to $25,000 for these families, which would significantly reduced those uncovered costs. People don't save. That's why there were two million bankruptcies filed in 2001. People live beyond their means and then wonder why they can't make ends meet. By the way, that article says half the bankruptcies filed that year were "medically related" which is much more than 50,000. However, most bankruptcies in this country are due to poor financial planning, not medical costs.

You could get in a dr today? That must be nice. I live in the us, and there is no way I would be able to make it in to see one today. Course, I guess hearing from all those canadians who could don't mean much.

As for your claim that critical health care will never be denied someone with a life threatening illness, that is plain false. I knew WinAce personally. He busted his *ass* off trying to get health care and was denied several times. My *mother* was denied several different forms of care as well when she was dieing and she WAS covered.
 
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IisJustMe

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You could get in a dr today? That must be nice. I live in the us, and there is no way I would be able to make it in to see one today. Course, I guess hearing from all those canadians who could don't mean much. You must be living in an alternate universe. There are no Canadians saying they can get in to see a doctor today. Unless you're talking about the ones who are patients of a doctor in private, unsubsidized practice. Those people can see their doctor today. I can see mine, or his on-call partner anytime, or I can go to a walk-in urgent care clinic. You can, too, if you try.
 
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You could get in a dr today? That must be nice. I live in the us, and there is no way I would be able to make it in to see one today. Course, I guess hearing from all those canadians who could don't mean much. You must be living in an alternate universe. There are no Canadians saying they can get in to see a doctor today. Unless you're talking about the ones who are patients of a doctor in private, unsubsidized practice. Those people can see their doctor today. I can see mine, or his on-call partner anytime, or I can go to a walk-in urgent care clinic. You can, too, if you try.

I get in the same day every time.

A specialist takes longer, unless it's an emergency.

What people in the US hear about Canadian health care are the horror stories. You've got them too. People who recieved awful treatment, long delays, substandard care. But they are the 1 in 10,000 story. Just like it is in the US.

If we had such an awful health care system we'd turf the government out on there ear and elect one who would provide a good health care system. That doesn't happen. Why? It's not an issue with the voters because we are quite happy with our health care system.

Heck, the average life span in Canada is 2 years more than in the US, we must be doing something right.
 
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SallyNow

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You could get in a dr today? That must be nice. I live in the us, and there is no way I would be able to make it in to see one today. Course, I guess hearing from all those canadians who could don't mean much. You must be living in an alternate universe. There are no Canadians saying they can get in to see a doctor today. Unless you're talking about the ones who are patients of a doctor in private, unsubsidized practice. Those people can see their doctor today. I can see mine, or his on-call partner anytime, or I can go to a walk-in urgent care clinic. You can, too, if you try.


Have you read this thread? Everyone in this thread could go see a doctor today. Every single one. And, no one would have to worry about paying for the visit, either. There are public walk-in clinics all day every day, there are public urgent-care clinics every day all day, and of course, E.R.s that are open 24/7.

The waitlists are for people with non-life-threatening illnesses to see specialists.

Let me say this again: If person walked into the ER in Canada with a pain in their stomach, they would be see a doctor in anywhere between a few minutes and a few hours, depending on the seriousness of the pain. If the pain was serious, say, appendicitis, they would get opperated on immediatly and not have to worry about the bill, ever.

If the blood tests revealed something strange, they'd get diagnostic scans immediatly.

If it turns out it was acid reflux they'd be sent home with a prescription and the number of a gastroenterologist, whereby they may have to wait two three weeks to see. Of course, they could also just see their family doctor the next day.

In simple, plain, easy-to-understand terms,

Canadians can see a publicly-funded, high-quality family doctor anytime they want. No waitlists. No bills. Period.

The issue at hand is that when someone has something minor, they may have to wait on a waitlist to see a specialist.

Clear enough now?
 
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That makes it pretty clear! :thumbsup:

Have you read this thread? Everyone in this thread could go see a doctor today. Every single one. And, no one would have to worry about paying for the visit, either. There are public walk-in clinics all day every day, there are public urgent-care clinics every day all day, and of course, E.R.s that are open 24/7.

The waitlists are for people with non-life-threatening illnesses to see specialists.

Let me say this again: If person walked into the ER in Canada with a pain in their stomach, they would be see a doctor in anywhere between a few minutes and a few hours, depending on the seriousness of the pain. If the pain was serious, say, appendicitis, they would get opperated on immediatly and not have to worry about the bill, ever.

If the blood tests revealed something strange, they'd get diagnostic scans immediatly.

If it turns out it was acid reflux they'd be sent home with a prescription and the number of a gastroenterologist, whereby they may have to wait two three weeks to see. Of course, they could also just see their family doctor the next day.

In simple, plain, easy-to-understand terms,

Canadians can see a publicly-funded, high-quality family doctor anytime they want. No waitlists. No bills. Period.

The issue at hand is that when someone has something minor, they may have to wait on a waitlist to see a specialist.

Clear enough now?
 
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