Canada vaccine awareness programs

[Trogdor the Burninator]

That's why you quoted "hundreds of thousands of doctors and medical professionals and literally tens of millions of people" getting it wrong with the polio vaccine?

Nope - they didn't get it wrong, no matter how hard you might wish it. Vaccines were responsible for almost wiping out polio worldwide. Vitamin C injections and other homeopathy cons were not. End of story.

 

[JackRT]

Nope - they didn't get it wrong, no matter how hard you might wish it. Vaccines were responsible for almost wiping out polio worldwide. Vitamin C injections and other homeopathy cons were not. End of story.

From 1900 to 1977 an estimated 300 to 500 million people died of smallpox. It was defeated by a concerted vaccination campaign and nothing else. I am sure that there must have been a small number of people who suffered unwanted side effects of the vaccine but that is far better than the tens or hundreds of millions who would have died like this:

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Ouch!

Surely, you meant that as a joke, right? No need to reply.

...actually, it wasn't a joke, it was a valid assessment.

There is an ample amount of research proving vaccines are safe and effective. Anti-vaccine "information" is isolated to fake doctors (IE: homeopaths, chiropractors, and naturopaths) and "Natural Medicine" websites (that are little more than supplement affiliate marketing sites)

There's a reason that the view (and the people who espouse it) are unpopular is because what was one comedy fodder (like the flat earther crowd) is actually starting to convince people to do things that are detrimental to public health, and we're seeing results of that.

Whooping cough is a perfect example of that...

A disease that was all but eradicated in the 40's made a comeback in 2012 due to:
A) fewer people vaccinating their children (some out of laziness/lack of awareness, some due to influences of false anti-vaxxer info), and B) the vaccine makers kowtowing to the anti-vaxxers (to try to encourage them to get vaccinated) and making a weakened, "watered down" (figuratively speaking) version of the vaccine by getting rid of some of the things that helped make it more effective, but that the anti-vaxxers were afraid of for some reason...which didn't matter because they still thought up reasons to not get it.

So a disease that was all but eradicated 80 years ago, infected 40,000+ people in 2012 due to ignorance about vaccines.

...this is basically why I've stopped caring about the feelings of anti-vaxxers, and why I pull no punches when it comes to discussing charlatans like homeopaths and chiropractors.

The way I look at it: When what someone is doing is contributing to a potential public health crisis, they've waived their privilege of having me address them in a tactful manner. I wouldn't walk on eggshells to avoid upsetting a restaurant owner who was serving food that was making people sick (no matter how passionate and emotionally attached to their cooking they were), so the same applies here.

 

[Sam91]

...actually, it wasn't a joke, it was a valid assessment.

There is an ample amount of research proving vaccines are safe and effective. Anti-vaccine "information" is isolated to fake doctors (IE: homeopaths, chiropractors, and naturopaths) and "Natural Medicine" websites (that are little more than supplement affiliate marketing sites)

There's a reason that the view (and the people who espouse it) are unpopular is because what was one comedy fodder (like the flat earther crowd) is actually starting to convince people to do things that are detrimental to public health, and we're seeing results of that.

Whooping cough is a perfect example of that...

A disease that was all but eradicated in the 40's made a comeback in 2012 due to:
A) fewer people vaccinating their children (some out of laziness/lack of awareness, some due to influences of false anti-vaxxer info), and B) the vaccine makers kowtowing to the anti-vaxxers (to try to encourage them to get vaccinated) and making a weakened, "watered down" (figuratively speaking) version of the vaccine by getting rid of some of the things that helped make it more effective, but that the anti-vaxxers were afraid of for some reason...which didn't matter because they still thought up reasons to not get it.

So a disease that was all but eradicated 80 years ago, infected 40,000+ people in 2012 due to ignorance about vaccines.

...this is basically why I've stopped caring about the feelings of anti-vaxxers, and why I pull no punches when it comes to discussing charlatans like homeopaths and chiropractors.

The way I look at it: When what someone is doing is contributing to a potential public health crisis, they've waived their privilege of having me address them in a tactful manner. I wouldn't walk on eggshells to avoid upsetting a restaurant owner who was serving food that was making people sick (no matter how passionate and emotionally attached to their cooking they were), so the same applies here.

Well vaccines aren't as great as you make out. My 3 year old son had his 2nd mmr 5 weeks ago. Last week he had such a huge fever. At 15 months, he had his first MMR he ended up ill about three weeks later with a chest infection. I watched him have a febrile convulsion and turn blue, while I was shrieking on the phone to emergency services that he wasn't breathing. He needed two rounds of antibiotics to recover and steroids. Other than that he hadn't been to the doctors except for eczema that he has grown out of.

My daughter had the flu shot. A week or so later she had a temperature for 11 days. It soared as high as 41.2 C one day and was at 40 for 10 days. (That is very high. The highest I have seen) She also fainted more that year than other years.

Also, it was recommended that I shouldn't receive vaccines because of my mother's epilepsy. I had them because I nearly died of whooping cough. My children get vaccinated, but I do not like it. After watching the consistent effects of a weakened immune system following vaccines in three children I do not class them as safe. Neither does the US as you pretend, otherwise people would not win claims for vaccine injuries.

One could say that those saying that they are safe are doing a diservice to vulnerable babies rather than keeping the pressure on to make vaccination safe. I am glad that diseases such as smallpox and polio etc are not on my list of childhood ailments to worry about though.

 

[Sam91]

The flu vaccine screwed up my immune system too. Four months after having it I was very ill. My temperature was over 40°C and I coughed up blood. It may have been pneumonia. I was a fit 33year old who has never had flu in my life. I had the vaccine to protect my partner. I have never been as ill as I was and haven't been ill since with anything worse than a cold.

Also, what is with all these babies who have metabolic degenerative disorders who look and appear normal at birth? How can we be sure that something in a gene isn't switched on by vaccines. Immunotherapy tells us that viruses are a way to do that in cancers. I know they are still rare but it is only in the couple of few years that we hear about those, I also get it might be due to social media that we hear more stories. However, we are now happy to vaccinate pregnant mothers, where as before I don't think we would have unless necessary.

 

[FireDragon76]

What accounts for the high rate of non-vaccination in Canada?

 

[FireDragon76]

It's ironic because I just got a tetanus/diptheria shot and a flu shot yesterday. I'm feeling under the weather, but when you cut your finger deep and it's been over 12 years since your last booster, I think that's better than risking tetanus.

I've just been drinking detox tea and more water than usual, and resting.

 

[JackRT]

What accounts for the high rate of non-vaccination in Canada?

From the figures I've seen, the rate is not particularly high in Canada but it can stand improvement to improve the level of "herd immunity".

 

[expos4ever]

If you pro-vaxxers really believe in your vaccines, then why are you so scared of our kids? Lol.

O man, this is one hanging curveball. I will now see if anyone has jumped on it and taken it downtown.

 

[expos4ever]

O man, this is one hanging curveball. I will now see if anyone has jumped on it and taken it downtown.

Yup, someone did - Skreeper.

 

[DaisyDay]

Well vaccines aren't as great as you make out. My 3 year old son had his 2nd mmr 5 weeks ago. Last week he had such a huge fever. At 15 months, he had his first MMR he ended up ill about three weeks later with a chest infection. I watched him have a febrile convulsion and turn blue, while I was shrieking on the phone to emergency services that he wasn't breathing. He needed two rounds of antibiotics to recover and steroids. Other than that he hadn't been to the doctors except for eczema that he has grown out of.

Three weeks later? Why would the MMR be responsible for what sounds like a strep infection? Antibiotics are for bacterial infections - the MMR are vaccines against viruses - 2 different creatures and the time lapse is significant.

My daughter had the flu shot. A week or so later she had a temperature for 11 days. It soared as high as 41.2 C one day and was at 40 for 10 days. (That is very high. The highest I have seen) She also fainted more that year than other years.

While vaccines can cause fevers, why would it take a week?

Also, it was recommended that I shouldn't receive vaccines because of my mother's epilepsy. I had them because I nearly died of whooping cough. My children get vaccinated, but I do not like it. After watching the consistent effects of a weakened immune system following vaccines in three children I do not class them as safe. Neither does the US as you pretend, otherwise people would not win claims for vaccine injuries.

Vaccines strengthen the immune system.

One could say that those saying that they are safe are doing a diservice to vulnerable babies rather than keeping the pressure on to make vaccination safe. I am glad that diseases such as smallpox and polio etc are not on my list of childhood ailments to worry about though.

Even placebos, which are noneffective, often have side effects. No medicine that is effective is 100% safe, but vaccines are far, far safer than the diseases they protect against.

 

[Sam91]

Three weeks later? Why would the MMR be responsible for what sounds like a strep infection? Antibiotics are for bacterial infections - the MMR are vaccines against viruses - 2 different creatures and the time lapse is significant.

While vaccines can cause fevers, why would it take a week?

Vaccines strengthen the immune system.

Even placebos, which are noneffective, often have side effects. No medicine that is effective is 100% safe, but vaccines are far, far safer than the diseases they protect against.

Being able to diagnose over the internet? My own doctor couldn't hazard a guess.

I didn't even mention antibiotics. But seeing as you did... I avoid those. They destroy the immune system. And they do! You see inside our body are millions of bacteria. These bacteria play a part in actually preventing illness. Oh I did mention antibiotics, the chest infection my baby had but why I had to be told extremely basic information about the difference between visuses and bacteria I don't understand.

Vaccines do cause fevers. Fever is an immune response produced by the body and because the immune system is fighting the vaccine you get a fever. But not the fevers I was referring to with my children. These are responses to illnesses picked up that I do not think would have been severe without having had a vaccine beforehand.

Genetic Predisposition for Adverse Events after Vaccination | The Journal of Infectious Diseases | Oxford Academic

If you read this article you will see that fever is a common reaction to that specific vaccine (and many others, that is why we are warned about it and told to medicate a post viral fever in children). But you will also see how in studies, if you read them, and in this one that they do not attribute the severe adverse events to the vaccine. This article mentions the heart inflammation as a concern.

Access to this study is restricted unless you have good credentials to read it. Which is disappointing because I would like to read this one. https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?start=20&q=vaccines+altering+human+genes&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&as_vis=1#d=gs_qabs&p=&u=#p=KJZjsuHBqSIJ

Please do not attack me on the basis that I look at studies. I look at studies about many issues and have barely looked into vaccine studies, due to needing to vaccinate my children. If I was informed I would probably struggle to allow it in my children. I struggle just based on seeing the pattern. It is saddening that anti vaxxers are treated so appallingly. In my opinion it is more scandalous that Christians attack people for loving their child enough to show due care to protect their children from harm in the way they see best. It is not loving others more than themselves to attack people. It is sinning and they try to rationalise it and think it is deserved. That is acting like a judge and then dishing out the punishment.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

My daughter had the flu shot. A week or so later she had a temperature for 11 days. It soared as high as 41.2 C one day and was at 40 for 10 days. (That is very high. The highest I have seen) She also fainted more that year than other years.

If your child has a legitimate allergy to something in the vaccines, that's a valid reason.

However, a quick look at the number will clearly indicate that that's not the norm and those particular allergies are something they can be pretested for (like most other allergies)

Only 1.3 out of every million have a serious adverse allergic reaction to flue vaccines. Compare that to the numbers for the actual flu... 200,000 hospitalizations and 5-30k deaths per year (depending on the pervasive strain and the year), mostly among kids and elderly. Even if we're to believe the anecdotes (and there are always several on this topic) getting the flu shot is still be best option for risk/harm reduction.

...in many of these cases, when people report "oh, I got the flu shot later and 3 days later, I got the flu", it shows a serious misunderstanding of how the vaccines actually work.

1) The flu shot can't give you the flu, all of them are either made with an inactivated version of the virus (meaning it's impossible for them to be infectious), or in the case of the recombinant vaccine, they don't even use the flu virus to make it.

2) It takes 10-15 days for it to be fully effective as that's the time it takes post-vaccines for the antibodies to fully build up in your system and protect you.


So, how these stories usually go...a person is around other people who they notice are sick or who've said they have/had the flu recently (meaning still contagious). That reminds them to go get the flu shot (but they've already been exposed at that point, and symptoms begin 2-5 days after exposure), so they go, and then 3 days later they "get the flu" (they already had it because they were already exposed, the symptoms just hadn't showed up yet)...so they falsely attribute that to the vaccine and think that the shot gave them the flu.

 

[DaisyDay]

I didn't even mention antibiotics.

Yeah, you did. You wrote, and I quoted before and will again:

He needed two rounds of antibiotics to recover and steroids.

 

[Sam91]

Yeah, you did. You wrote, and I quoted before and will again:

If you read the the next sentence. Btw isn't your post against the flaming rules?

Maybe if you had read carefully you might have understood that I didn't think he was ill with something he was injected with but rather the vaccine had made him prone to picking up other infections and his immune system had trouble to fight it off. 4 weeks later they gave steroids and a second set of antibiotics because he was still not getting better. After the steroids he improved.

 

[dgiharris]

Over the last while I have been pondering a phenomenon that has actually been going for a very long time. I am referring to Denialists and Conspiracy Theorists. While they might seem to be different behaviours, I think they have a commonality in the sort of mind that subscribes to them. What also struck me as curious is the number of them that are centered around science, technology and medicine. Let me list a few.

>> the link between tobacco and cancer, particularly lung cancer

>> the fluoridation of water supplies to prevent tooth decay

>> the role of chlorofluorinated hydrocarbons in the deterioration of the ozone layer

>> the build up of DDT in the food chain and its effect on both reproduction success in birds and human health.

>> the link between HIV and AIDS

>> the role of vaccination in causing other health issues

>> the historicity of the moon landings

>>UFOs and aliens

>>flat earth

>> chemtrails

>> the human role in CO2 production and climate change

This is hardly an exhaustive list and it is easy to also point out others that have very little, if any, linkage to science, technology or medicine. For example, the historicity of the Holocaust, of the Twin Towers, of the assassination of President Kennedy and of both President Obama's birth place and religion.

What most puzzles me most is the state of mind of both those who advocate these theories and those who so readily subscribe to them. I will throw out a few random thoughts here in the hope that they will generate some discussion.

>> fear and powerlessness --- people feel overwhelmed by events that are beyond their control and require a scapegoat on which to pin their frustration and their anger.

>> fear and ignorance --- people are frightened by their own lack of understanding of the concepts and issues involved and suggest that 'the intellectuals' are trying to put one over on them.

>> the 'little guy syndrome' --- people fear big organizations, big government in particular, and feel the need to lash out at them by suggesting that the little guy is being somehow exploited.

>>contrarianism --- some people love to be different just for the sake of it

>>special knowledge syndrome --- a form of elitism where people like to feel they have some special or secret knowledge that makes them feel smarter and/or better informed than the rest, even if it doesn't have much practical application.

>> religion and political ideologies --- in at least a few cases the culprit is viewed as challenging religious and/or political beliefs.

To illustrate this last point we could look at two examples.

Political --- the fluoridation of water supplies to prevent tooth decay was opposed as a tactic by communists to poison the whole nation. This was particularly effective in the days of the 'red menace' but has a modern counterpart in the paranoia surrounding international terrorism.

Religious --- new technologies are viewed as challenging religious understandings. This goes back a long way in history. Two hundred years ago Timothy Dwight, Presbyterian minister and president of Yale University wrote “If God had decreed from all eternity that a certain person should die of smallpox, it would be a frightful sin to avoid and annul that decree by the trick of vaccination.” Today we see an echo of that religious fear in the debate surrounding stem cell research.

My final observation is that it seems to me that denialists, conspiracy theorists, and biblical fundamentalists / creationists are often the same people.

I think there is a lot of truth to the quoted argument. If I were to add to it, I also feel that the engine behind the above fallacies and mistaken beliefs are a fundamental lack of understanding of basic principles of logic.

• If A = B, and B = C, then A = C.
• If Q > X, and X > Y, then Q > Y
• if D = 95% and E = 5%, then you can't equate the two as being equal simply because you found one example or case of E happening instead of D --i.e. anecdotes are NOT data)

Anti-vaxxers, Flat Earthers, Fake Moon Landing People, etc simply do not comprehend the above. They require a ridiculous burden of proof for X (mainstream beliefs) however they do NOT extend that same burden of proof for Y-- the quackery they believe in.

Similarly, they use anecdotes as equivalent to data. Tell one of these people that vaccines reduce the infection rate of X disease by 98% they counter you with a story about their cousin's wife's sister's child who got a vaccine and got sick anyway therefore vaccines are bad...

Ultimately, the conspiracy theorists' erroneous beliefs are a combination of two factors:

• #1) The emotional / psychological factor for why they are contrarian (JackRT addressed this)
• #2) A lack of understanding of the most basic rudimentary principles of logic and reasoning

 

[Sam91]

I think there is a lot of truth to the quoted argument. If I were to add to it, I also feel that the engine behind the above fallacies and mistaken beliefs are a fundamental lack of understanding of basic principles of logic.

• If A = B, and B = C, then A = C.
• If Q > X, and X > Y, then Q > Y
• if D = 95% and E = 5%, then you can't equate the two as being equal simply because you found one example or case of E happening instead of D --i.e. anecdotes are NOT data)

Anti-vaxxers, Flat Earthers, Fake Moon Landing People, etc simply do not comprehend the above. They require a ridiculous burden of proof for X (mainstream beliefs) however they do NOT extend that same burden of proof for Y-- the quackery they believe in.

Similarly, they use anecdotes as equivalent to data. Tell one of these people that vaccines reduce the infection rate of X disease by 98% they counter you with a story about their cousin's wife's sister's child who got a vaccine and got sick anyway therefore vaccines are bad...

Ultimately, the conspiracy theorists' erroneous beliefs are a combination of two factors:

• #1) The emotional / psychological factor for why they are contrarian (JackRT addressed this)
• #2) A lack of understanding of the most basic rudimentary principles of logic and reasoning

Amongst that minority are the critical thinkers. The ones likely to change the world. There are a lot of sheep in the majority. It also isn't very kind to write whole groups of people off. It is often, if not mostly, closed minded and unhelpful.

William Wilberforce only abolished slavery through persistence. The government had things to gain at the time and it took 20 motions, I think, to get the motion passed.

 

[DaisyDay]

If you read the the next sentence. Btw isn't your post against the flaming rules?

How in the world is quoting you "flaming"? You claimed that you said nothing about antibiotics("I didn't even mention antibiotics" (click here to see your post again)), so I bolded and highlighted in red the part where you clearly did. You claimed that it was I who brought up antibiotics ("But seeing as you did" (ibid.)), so quoting your post to show that it was, in fact, you who did, is not flaming. I'm truly puzzled as to why you think pointing out your own words is "flaming". If you are this thin-skinned that a contradiction and a quote of your own words in red is offensive to you, perhaps debate forums aren't for you?

Maybe if you had read carefully you might have understood that I didn't think he was ill with something he was injected with but rather the vaccine had made him prone to picking up other infections and his immune system had trouble to fight it off. 4 weeks later they gave steroids and a second set of antibiotics because he was still not getting better. After the steroids he improved.

I find it best to state clearly what I want to be understood.

• 

 

[DaisyDay]

Amongst that minority are the critical thinkers. The ones likely to change the world.

Hm, you think critical thinkers are the ones with an inability to understand and apply logic and math? I would have put it the other way around.

There are a lot of sheep in the majority. It also isn't very kind to write whole groups of people off. It is often, if not mostly, closed minded and unhelpful.

Is it kind to call people sheep?

William Wilberforce only abolished slavery through persistence. The government had things to gain at the time and it took 20 motions, I think, to get the motion passed.

And?

 

[keith99]

Vaccinations are poisons. Here, lets just get the same vaccinations that our great grandparents got. Oh, wait, they did not get them at all. You all need to pray right now to Jesus the Son of God, and ask for discernment on vaccinations. Seek with your heart, would you reallllly want to know if they are good or bad? Then you will get the knowledge you need.

Yes and in the generation of my great grand parents everyone had a friend who had lost a sibling and it was common to have over a half dozen children to be reasonably sure that one would reach adulthood.