Can your god lie?

[Grega]

Well your question was 'can your God lie' not can you prove it.
God has never proven untrustworthy through the years so if everything that He has said that can be tested has proven true, then may not be conclusive, but it it fair to say He does not lie. Its down to faith this one.





It makes sense though. Smaller issues like this people except because of bigger issues that have given them reason to believe.

Well your question was 'can your God lie' not can you prove it.
God has never proven untrustworthy through the years so if everything that He has said that can be tested has proven true, then may not be conclusive, but it it fair to say He does not lie.
Its funny you should say that because I keep a green sock on my door handle to keep the Australian red backed biting chimps away from my home in UK...so far it seems to have worked; and therefore what else can I conclude other than were it not for the green sock on my door handle I would have long since been terrorised by those chimps...I feel somewhat lucky I discovered that trick! (this response is in someway analagous to yours btw)

It makes sense though. Smaller issues like this people except because of bigger issues that have given them reason to believe.
It doesn't make sense to me!

 

[chosenpath]

This command was given by God:
Leviticus19:11
'You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another.

He also makes known through Isaiah:
Isaiah 55:6-9
Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. "For My thoughts [are] not your thoughts, Nor [are] your ways My ways," says the LORD. "For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.


Jesus is the word of God and he instructs:
Matthew 5:48
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

But if scripture doesn't work for you maybe your logic or common sense might.
Ask yourself, Why would someone need to lie if they had power over everything and didn't have the threat of anyone or anything conquering them or had any reason to be cynical not to mention at the command of their voice create or destroy.

Loved your question very though evoking.

 

[solarwave]

Well your question was 'can your God lie' not can you prove it.
God has never proven untrustworthy through the years so if everything that He has said that can be tested has proven true, then may not be conclusive, but it it fair to say He does not lie.
Its funny you should say that because I keep a green sock on my door handle to keep the Australian red backed biting chimps away from my home in UK...so far it seems to have worked; and therefore what else can I conclude other than were it not for the green sock on my door handle I would have long since been terrorised by those chimps...I feel somewhat lucky I discovered that trick! (this response is in someway analagous to yours btw)

I think there is a difference though. Your situation is a lack of something, which is pretty easy to happen, but when one thing is specified by God to happen and it does (also Gods promises are fulfilled, not a lack of something happening). You can see something happening, but not a lack of something happening, because your green sock stops alot of things happening. Anyway I do think there is a big difference between when someone says something will happen and it happens, to doing something to prevent/ make something happen. Personal compared to impersonal.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Just a simple question...do you believe your god is incapable of lying?

No. I don't think He's incapable of anything we can conceive of.

If so, what is the bound/force/mechanism/whatever that prevents this?

He's holy and perfect but, honestly, why would He need to?

 

[Grega]

No. I don't think He's incapable of anything we can conceive of.He's holy and perfect but, honestly, why would He need to?

.He's holy and perfect but, honestly, why would He need to?
Hmm...Holy and perfect don't mean much to me until they have been strictly defined without using your god as the reference point from which such attributes are measured...there is already a thread for the "perfect" bit
For your question however it may be the case as I've stated to someone else earlier that perhaps your god sees that telling you he can't lie is the most economical and efficient way of limiting the potential for humans to lie...since maybe if people knew god could lie then people might think..."well if god can do it, so can I"...this is at least one reason out of many!

 

[Grega]

This command was given by God:
Leviticus19:11
'You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another.

He also makes known through Isaiah:
Isaiah 55:6-9
Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. "For My thoughts [are] not your thoughts, Nor [are] your ways My ways," says the LORD. "For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.


Jesus is the word of God and he instructs:
Matthew 5:48
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

But if scripture doesn't work for you maybe your logic or common sense might.
Ask yourself, Why would someone need to lie if they had power over everything and didn't have the threat of anyone or anything conquering them or had any reason to be cynical not to mention at the command of their voice create or destroy.

Loved your question very though evoking.

Ask yourself, Why would someone need to lie if they had power over everything and didn't have the threat of anyone or anything conquering them or had any reason to be cynical not to mention at the command of their voice create or destroy.
As I have suggested to others...economy/efficiency

 

[Grega]

I think there is a difference though. Your situation is a lack of something, which is pretty easy to happen, but when one thing is specified by God to happen and it does (also Gods promises are fulfilled, not a lack of something happening). You can see something happening, but not a lack of something happening, because your green sock stops alot of things happening. Anyway I do think there is a big difference between when someone says something will happen and it happens, to doing something to prevent/ make something happen. Personal compared to impersonal.

I think there is a difference though. Your situation is a lack of something, which is pretty easy to happen, but when one thing is specified by God to happen and it does (also Gods promises are fulfilled, not a lack of something happening). You can see something happening, but not a lack of something happening, because your green sock stops alot of things happening. Anyway I do think there is a big difference between when someone says something will happen and it happens, to doing something to prevent/ make something happen. Personal compared to impersonal.
But your situation is the lack of observation that god has lied...I say there is little difference

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Hmm...Holy and perfect don't mean much to me until they have been strictly defined without using your god as the reference point from which such attributes are measured...

Fair enough

For your question however it may be the case as I've stated to someone else earlier that perhaps your god sees that telling you he can't lie is the most economical and efficient way of limiting the potential for humans to lie...since maybe if people knew god could lie then people might think..."well if god can do it, so can I"...this is at least one reason out of many!

Does God tell us He can't lie? I'm not convinced He's ever said that.

At any rate, I believe God *can* lie, but that He doesn't. I also know that regardless of what God can or can't do, we're eminently capable of it. So I don't understand your theory, at all. Could you give me one of the other many reasons instead, please? Cos, am honestly not understanding your reasoning at the moment.

 

[chosenpath]

As I have suggested to others...economy/efficiency [/quote]

Interesting that you would bring this up. Your response in post 19 where you expound on the economy/efficiency reminds me of a creature that approached Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 3:3-5
but of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' " Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

John 8:44
You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources], for he is a liar and the father of it.

Sorry my friend I'm not biting of the fruit you are offering. Lesson was learned from times long past.

 

[GoodNewsJim]

chosenpath has it right, and she even used the scriptures that popped into my head when I was thinking about the situation.

Jesus is truth.

Satan is father of lies.

Its as opposite as good and evil.

 

[Grega]

Fair enough

Does God tell us He can't lie? I'm not convinced He's ever said that.

At any rate, I believe God *can* lie, but that He doesn't. I also know that regardless of what God can or can't do, we're eminently capable of it. So I don't understand your theory, at all. Could you give me one of the other many reasons instead, please? Cos, am honestly not understanding your reasoning at the moment.

Does God tell us He can't lie? I'm not convinced He's ever said that.
I think AV gave me some scripture before that implies he can't...but regadrless of what is written this does not prevent him from lying and so I suppose it is a trivial matter I care to expand upon only for those who demonstrate via scripture that he can't(?)

At any rate, I believe God *can* lie, but that He doesn't. I also know that regardless of what God can or can't do, we're eminently capable of it. So I don't understand your theory, at all...
See, I used the phrase "limiting the potential for humans to lie" because though I'm well aware that we lie anyway, I say that perhaps more people who believe that lying is a sin would think it slightly less a sin if they thought god too tells lies"

... Could you give me one of the other many reasons instead, please? Cos, am honestly not understanding your reasoning at the moment.
Giving his reason for lying as being the most efficient/economical means of limiting the number of lies thrown about was the least blasphemous reason I could give you for why your god might choose to lies...other reasons (whilst trying to be very careful what I say) might be that he wants to test your faith...ie: do you trust him enough to be convinced he doesn't lie even though that may not be the case?...I can think of others but I'd rather not be pressed to give you them, suffice it to say that I am free to explore the sort of possibilities that would be uncomfortable for a Christian such as yourself and I would be treading very thin ground where I to repeat them here.

 

[Grega]

As I have suggested to others...economy/efficiency

Interesting that you would bring this up. Your response in post 19 where you expound on the economy/efficiency reminds me of a creature that approached Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 3:3-5
but of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' " Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

John 8:44
You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources], for he is a liar and the father of it.

Sorry my friend I'm not biting of the fruit you are offering. Lesson was learned from times long past.
[/quote]

Hmm..see, it is difficult to accurately respond to this post given that you assume plausible the notion of talking serpents, and trees of knowledge of good & evil where I do not!
However I do say that I see no reason why your god should be always truthful and also that the book from which you derive your conclusion that he is truthful is of little use here since the proposition that your god can lie, if true, quietly implies that anything written by or inspired by your god stating he cannot lie are false.

 

[GoodNewsJim]

Hmm..see, it is difficult to accurately respond to this post given that you assume plausible the notion of talking serpents, and trees of knowledge of good & evil where I do not!

I think you have made it adequately clear that you don't believe in God.
So I propose a question to you:

"If you don't believe God exists, why are you trying so hard to call him a liar?"

 

[Grega]

I think you have made it adequately clear that you don't believe in God.
So I propose a question to you:

"If you don't believe God exists, why are you trying so hard to call him a liar?"

I think you have made it adequately clear that you don't believe in God.
So I propose a question to you:

"If you don't believe God exists, why are you trying so hard to call him a liar?"
There is a subtlety in my position you have not considered...Yes you are correct in that I don't believe in your OT god, to a(n ever so slightly) lesser degree I don't believe in other people's gods...To be accurate, I find it most unlikely (ludicrous even) if there exists a supernatural entity that it would fit any descriptions you or I assign to it... However I'm not the strong atheist I assume you think I am. The existence of an entity beyond my perception, ability to detect/measure etc...is an undecidable proposition, it can neither be proved nor disproved. (though I proceed onwards in life under the assumption that such an entity existing is unlikely to be true)
and so, suspending my conviction on such matters as the validity of a defined god I'm giving Christianity the benefit of the doubt in being the one of many religions that is "more right" than the others such that I may at the very least ask more accurate questions now or in the future. (Though I usually try to distance my questions/responses from the specific OT fundamentalist views held by yourself as I say that they are hopelessly misguided.)

In this thread I want to know from you folks that are unmoveable in your conviction that your god cannot lie one simple answer...why? (I want that answer to be valid in such that you do not use the premise that god does not lie to justify it - as many including yourself make the mistake of doing)

 

[GoodNewsJim]

in your conviction that your god cannot lie one simple answer...why?

Scripture.

Also it takes faith to understand anything about God.

 

[Grega]

Scripture.

Hmm...it seems that conversation between myself and you will proceed as follows:

• You will make a circular argument, using scripture you claim your god wrote/inspired to justify the statement that your god cannot lie
• I will point out that if your god lied when he wrote/inspired your scripture then your argument fails...I will then press you for a valid reason
• You will make a circular argument, using scripture you claim your god wrote/inspired to justify the statement that your god cannot lie
• I will point out again more carefully that if your god lied when he wrote/inspired your scripture then your argument fails...I will then press you for a valid reason
• You will make a circular argument, using scripture you claim your god wrote/inspired to justify the statement that your god cannot lie
• and so on...

Thankyou for your input JamesSager 3

 

[GoodNewsJim]

I wish I could also declare victory in this thread, but you're still a lost soul that doesn't understand that God is real.

And while what I think may be of no consequence to you, I hope to reach out to those who are seeking.

 

[Grega]

I wish I could also declare victory in this thread, but you're still a lost soul that doesn't understand that God is real.

And while what I think may be of no consequence to you, I hope to reach out to those who are seeking.

Are you really seeking God, or are you just trying to poke around the brains of Christians?

I wish to determine what statements are feasible, and what statements cannot be true about the god you expect me to seek.

My position is far more comprimising than it was nearly 2 years ago but I refuse to believe that something is true via appeal to supposed authority...If I can ask questions on these boards for which an answer is provided that I had not anticipated/prepared for I am willing to evaluate it on its merits.