Can you support Palestine and Hamas

Can you support Hamas and Palestine


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Aldebaran

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do Palestinian lives matter?

Yes, but just like black lives, mattering does not mean excusing their violent behavior, be it burning down businesses or firing thousands of rockets into residential areas.
 
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wing2000

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I'm sure a good amount of that does go to the Israeli military so they can defend themselves from being attacked.

It better -- that's exactly what the military aid is intended to do. The point is, our aid could free up other money to carry out Israeli policies that are not in the US interest. The same is true of US aid sent to the Palestinians.
 
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wing2000

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Yes, but just like black lives, mattering does not mean excusing their violent behavior, be it burning down businesses or firing thousands of rockets into residential areas.

....and in both instances, most of the people are not doing those activities.

I understand, though, it's simpler to paint with a very broad brush. Good guys - vs bad guys...
 
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Aldebaran

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....and in both instances, most of the people are not doing those activities.

I understand, though, it's simpler to paint with a very broad brush. Good guys - vs bad guys...

Then why did you ask, "do Palestinian lives matter?" Your question painted them with just as broad of a brush.
 
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gaara4158

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Let's see. Israelis give eviction notices where they shouldn't have. Hama send 1000 missiles over the Israeli border.

What is the "power to end the violence"? Does that mean disarming Hamas? Sure Israel could do that.
If that’s the extent of your familiarity with this conflict I’ll ask you to sit quietly in the corner.
 
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mark46

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If that’s the extent of your familiarity with this conflict I’ll ask you to sit quietly in the corner.

I have followed this conflict all my life and from the time Israel was a state (a slight exaggeration since I was under 2 years of age at the time). Obviously, we also spent lots of time discussing the 1948 war and the events leading up to it.

When is school during the Six Days War in the 60's, I discussed these issues at length with Arabs from various countries, and with Palestinians and Israelis.

I understand that it is possible that you have more knowledge than I have been exposed to about this issue over the last 70 years. But then again, maybe not.
 
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hislegacy

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Palestinians have chosen to live under the rule of Hamas' . Hamas runs Palestine with support from the Palestinian people.

....or so you would like to believe. Your statement is simply false.

so, cite your proof.
If you don’t or can’t, it just just your opinion.
 
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gaara4158

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I have followed this conflict all my life and from the time Israel was a state (a slight exaggeration since I was under 2 years of age at the time). Obviously, we also spent lots of time discussing the 1948 war and the events leading up to it.

When is school during the Six Days War in the 60's, I discussed these issues at length with Arabs from various countries, and with Palestinians and Israelis.

I understand that it is possible that you have more knowledge than I have been exposed to about this issue over the last 70 years. But then again, maybe not.
Then it is doubly shameful that you feel the conflict can be boiled down to “Palestinians responded to impolite evictions with rockets.” Palestinians have nowhere to go, the Zionists want them gone but the state of Israel has checkpoints at all major arteries of travel preventing them from leaving, and yet they’re being forcibly evicted from their homes. What are they supposed to do when a world superpower is effectively holding them inside an open-air prison? Of course they’re going to accept the help of terrorist organizations! You’re lying to yourself if you think you wouldn’t do the same. Israel is bombing innocent men, women, and children with state-of-the-art weaponry in Gaza while they cower in their homes praying that the bombs strike true so their deaths are quick and together. It’s one thing for Israel’s international allies to stand by and do nothing while Israel attempts genocide in order to preserve their strategic relationship with them, but it’s inexcusable for an individual American to stand morally behind Israel in all this.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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I do know the answer, but it doesn't matter.

Yes, Israel was attacked by its neighbors.
Yes, Israel won the war.
Yes, israel occupied the Palestinian lands when the war was over.

Just because you were attacked doesn't mean you can keep your enemies land. That's the point.
I think that if someone is trying to destroy your existence and fend them off and take ground in the process, you don't owe them squat. So yes, it does matter.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I think that if someone is trying to destroy your existence and fend them off and take ground in the process, you don't owe them squat. So yes, it does matter.

In the '67 war, Israel was attacked by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. At the end of the war, Israel occupied territories of two of the [three --] the Sinai from Egypt and the Golan Heights from Syria. They have since returned the Sinai. Israel also occupied two other territories that had been the other part (the Arab) part of the partition of Mandate Palestine at the time when the Jewish part became the State of Israel. The Gaza strip was under the military control of Egypt before the war and Jordan had annexed the West Bank with minimal international recognition. There wasn't a Palestinian Arab state when the '67 war started, so the Palestinians *couldn't* attack Israel.

[It is a separate question whether in general, it is just to keep the territory of an enemy that attacks you if you capture it in war.]
 
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morningstar2651

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Then why did you ask, "do Palestinian lives matter?" Your question painted them with just as broad of a brush.
This is a simple question: Do you believe their lives matter or do you believe it's okay to exterminate them?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Oh, When did the Embassy for Israel open in Egypt?​


They have exchanged ambassadors since the peace accords.

Last time I was in Egypt (2019), There was no embassy - there was no travel between the two countries.
***I wanted to go to Israel since I was so close - the only way was to travel to a neutral country first and then Israel***

You can fly direct from Cairo to Tel Aviv. (Well, not at this exact moment since the airspace is busy.)
 
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atpollard

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Israel is better for women and sexual minorities, so let’s overlook the cultural apartheid that they keep the Palestinians in?
The Palestinians are in “cultural apartheid” because the other Muslim cultures closed their borders to them. Israel is not their only neighbor, just the only neighbor they refuse to acknowledge has a right to live. That was the reason past treaties have failed. Hamas is philosophically committed to the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews.
 
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atpollard

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Just because you were attacked doesn't mean you can keep your enemies land. That's the point.
So the US should give the Southern States back to the Confederacy?

What about Poland? It lost land after both World Wars.

I thought keeping conquered land was historically EXACTLY how war worked.
 
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Hans Blaster

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So the US should give the Southern States back to the Confederacy?

What about Poland? It lost land after both World Wars.

I thought keeping conquered land was historically EXACTLY how war worked.

1. The "confederate" states were in rebellion and they were "corrected".

2. Poland didn't even exist before for the end of WW I. It was reconstituted after WWI from lands that had once been Poland before the 18th century partitioning.

3. WW II started in Sept. 1939 when Poland was unilaterally invaded and quickly conquered by Germany and the USSR. By the time the war ended, the USSR was fighting against Germany and in the war settlement they kept the eastern portion of Poland (a country that had done them *no* harm) and Poland was "compensated" by taking land from Germany that was to the west of Poland. Again I ask "Is this just?" as Poland did *nothing* to provoke war and had its territory drastically reconfigured.

4. After WW II, the international community decided that "no, that's not how wars work any more."
 
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atpollard

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After WW II, the international community decided that "no, that's not how wars work any more."

Evolution of Territorial Conquest

“Conquest is not gone, but it has changed. The International Relations field continues to grapple with the question of why interstate war, particularly high-intensity war and great power war, declined after 1945. This study does not settle that fundamental question. Whatever the reasons, these forces extended into the territorial realm and gradually transformed the nature of territorial conquest. As the fait accompli became the predominant strategy of conquest, the most war-prone form of conquest (entire states) declined first, immediately after 1945. Then the intermediate form (populated territories, garrisoned territories) declined around the 1980s. The least war-prone form of conquest (unpopulated territories, undefended territories) persisted. Territorial conquests have not gone away, but rather they have become smaller, more targeted, and less violent.

Small territorial seizures that usually do not lead to war matter more than it may at first appear. Conquest remained the primary initiating event for wars after 1945 and even after 1975. There is tension but not a contradiction between a behavior usually not leading to war and that same behavior instigating most wars. War is rare and becoming rarer. Non-territorial interstate war has never been common. Consequently, despite the increasingly war-averse nature of conquest attempts, they remain central to the causes of most interstate wars. Consider, for instance, the nightmare scenario of nuclear war. To date, a pair of nuclear powers have fought each other with significant casualties on two occasions: China and the Soviet Union over Damansky Island in 1969 and India and Pakistan over Kargil in 1999. Both conflicts began with a military deployment to seize a small, unpopulated border territory.

Looking to the future, the most plausible scenarios that culminate in armed conflict between China and Japan begin with the disputed Senkaku Islands, which remain unpopulated and undefended. China’s disputes with the Philippines, Vietnam, and Malaysia over the Spratly Islands raise similar fears despite the small garrisons stationed there. Although the potential for a Chinese invasion of Taiwan continues to loom, a more limited Chinese seizure of Taiwanese islands like Kinmen, Mazu, and Itu Aba better fits the mold of modern conquest. Similarly, enduring disputes surrounding China’s border with India – often over remote unpopulated areas – linger as a potential source of conflict. The 2017 Doklam crisis could be illustrative of events to come. Elsewhere, the specter of future Russian territorial advances in Ukraine, Georgia, Estonia, and beyond now compete with terrorism at the top of the European security landscape. Territorial conflicts remain common in regions with newer borders, including the Middle East and Africa.”​
 
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Aldebaran

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This is a simple question: Do you believe their lives matter or do you believe it's okay to exterminate them?

I answered the question already and was then accused of "painting them with a broad brush".
 
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atpollard

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This is a simple question: Do you believe their lives matter or do you believe it's okay to exterminate them?
Okay to exterminate.

When a population group elects a government that chooses to locate missile launch sites by schools and crowded markets to use civilians as a human shield as they launch rocket attacks on enemy civilians .... that population has to accept that there will be massive civilian casualties from military retaliations against military targets strategically located to maximize civilian casualties.


Metaphor:
To expect a soldier to allow you to shoot him without shooting back because you are using your wife as a human shield, and then blame the soldier if she gets shot as you hide behind her shows a mental deficiency on your part rather than a lack of humanity on the part of the soldier.
 
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wing2000

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so, cite your proof.
If you don’t or can’t, it just just your opinion.

It's my opinion. You can't prove your statement any more than I can.
Neither of us speak for the Palestinian people.
 
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