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Can you really get to heaven without works????

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by treesitter, Jun 20, 2007.

  1. Yes, you need to have good works to justify your faith

  2. No, the only thing you need to do is pray the sinners prayer

  3. It is a balance; you are saved by faith but your works justify your faith

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  1. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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    The solution is not to put off what you should do right away.

    If you are not sorry for each individual sin in and of itself alone, then you cannot be truly repentant, for you were never sorry.

    If you are not repetant for each individual sin in and of itself alone, then you cannot be truly confessatory, for you never repentant.

    If you are not confessatory for each individual sin in and of itself alone, then you cannot be truly penitent, for you never confessed.

    If you are not penitent for each individual sin in and of itself alone, then you cannot be truly absolved, for you were never penitent.

    You must be contrite that you sinned (truly sorry), repent (change your mind and have a stance to, if in the same situation again, don't make the same mistake), confess (admit that you sinned), and then do penance (if you stole, give it back; if you lied, tell the truth. Otherwise, not doing it again the next time is penance). Otherwise, you will not be forgiven).

    If you forget, that's your ego way out of control to the point that you are now in deep trouble: how can you earnest go through the process if you don't remember?

    The only solution is to simply be sorry for all your forgotten sins, promise not to do them again, confess that you had a sinful past, and live as much a holy life as you can. The only problem is, how can you really do all this if you don't remember? How can you be truly sorry for individual sins that you don't remember doing? Even harder is to change your mind and nigh impossible is to confess those individual sins. Penance isn't really approachable. You can however do what I suggested with an earnest heart, and God will probably (I would not dare say definitely) put away your sins and absolve you.

    This is why ego is such an issue. It is also why I reject the OSAS doctrine: sin is devalued and antinomianism is pretty much standard issue.

    The Bible literally says to work out your salvation in fear and trembling. Salvation is not easy. You must stay the road. There is no one-way ticket. God will not forgive those who are not sorry, repentant, confessatory, and penitent.

    These are hard words, but they are truth. Too many people have lulled themselves into thinking "I'm saved." That concept is only as old as the last century. If you were "saved," then you'd be like Elijah or Enoch and wisked away into heaven, or perhaps like the Blessed Virgin Mary upon her Dormition; ascending to heaven upon her death. That's the real sign of salvation: the experience of actual heaven. Until you experience heaven, then you cannot know if you are "saved."

    It is the ego that tells you that you are "saved." You want it now and you want it forever. Christianity teaches however that salvation is difficult. How many people left Jesus because the road became too hard? They believed in Him, they just couldn't follow through. They thought they were going to have it easy, but they were in for a rude shock.

    If you want easy salvation, you will not find it in Christianity. You will not find easy salvation in any religion, with the noted possible exception of the various Neopagan religions, although Gardner would probably flip his lid if he saw what Wicca is today (though I digress here).

    The point is this: there is a sure Way, but not a sure, easy Way. The Way of Christ which is the straight path to salvation is not easy. If you make it easy, then you know that it isn't the straight path. If someone tells you that it is easy in so many words, then ignore that person. His yoke is easy in that it will not burden us to the point that we cannot bear it, not that there is no yoke at all. You still must bear it, and it may even lead to your death, but if you don't, then you have strayed.
     
  2. ContentInHim

    ContentInHim Guest

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    Where's the "I don't know" choice? :)

    As to whether you can be saved without works, what about the thief on the cross? He was saved but had no time for works.

    That said, I believe that works are very important. They demonstrate our love for our neighbors!
     
  3. holo

    holo former Christian

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    This has nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with the gospel. It's not even a perversion of the gospel, because the gospel is nowhere in there.
     
  4. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    So, repentence is nowhere in the gospel???
     
  5. Uphill Battle

    Uphill Battle Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate that you took the time! Many don't.

    I cannot say that I agree that this passage is for just Clergy. I see from the passage Paul addressing the brothers (fellow Christians) and then condemns them for bickering over whom they will follow, Apollos, Paul, etc.

    He details that it isn't them to follow, but Christ, highlighting that the "clergy" IE apollos and Paul, only did the work apportioned to them.

    In verse twelve, Paul begins "IF ANY MAN." To me this suggests the universal application of the following material, in which one without good works is somehow still saved, yet without the reward of the one who DID do good works.

    Applying it to clergy only gives you a situation where Clergy can go ahead and build with straw, and be saved, but the laity are damned for the same. Something that I cannot fathom God doing.
     
  6. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    Agreed.

    Maybe you can be repentant or your sins without naming each and every one of them. I got to thinking about this today. What if I dont come to realize the truths about Christ until I'm 52? There is no way to name each and every sin. I dont think there is any way to know every time we sin. For example, Jesus taught that a sinful thought was also a sin. And while we may be able to catch most of them, I think sometimes we do something, such as having a sinful thought, that just doesnt register in our brains as a sin.


    I think that you can be repentant, confessatory, and penitent for being a sinner, but as I said above, I think it's impossible to catch 100% of our sins throughout our whole lives. And it's not just my ego. I'm a really forgetful person.


    Let's say I wrong someone without realizing it. I can still apologize and be truly sorry even if I cant remember doing something to them.

    This is probably a good solution.

    I accept the OSAS doctrine because anything else says that Christs death wasnt enough. Anything else says, you must crucify him over and over again inorder to receive forgiveness.

    I think you are on to something here. Repentence is crucial and it probably isn't emphasized enough. When I realize that I'm a sinner, I also realize that that makes me an enemy of God and pits me against Him. And when I realize that I have been in rebellion against the God of creation, I know I'm in a really tight spot. But I do trust that next to God's justice is also mercy and grace. And since I believe what Jesus said, I do trust that Jesus death was enough for me to receive forgiveness, for all my sins. If we can't trust this, then I then God help us all.



    One example (I'm going to ry to find some others tonight at home) from the Bible would be the theif on the cross. There was no way for him to name every sin (and he sure wasn't baptised), but he was saved.

    Look foward to talking again Paladin.
     
  7. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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    Your Pelagianism is astounding...:sigh:
     
  8. holo

    holo former Christian

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    Repentance is something a man does. The gospel, on the other hand, is God's power to salvation.

    The gospel is GOD's power.
    God's POWER.

    The gospel has NOTHING to do with your emotions, your ability to remember, or anything like that. It has nothing to do with "making up" for any sin, because the punishment was laid on HIM.

    If you're still trying to save yourself by feeling this or doing that, you need to repent. Turn FROM yourself TO Christ.

    Salvation is by GRACE, which means it's a gift. Religious people will try to make you pay for it as if it was something you could buy or achieve. They will say that the righteousness and holiness of God is so LOW that you can actually attain it by feeling in a certain way and doing some sort of work.
     
  9. Uphill Battle

    Uphill Battle Well-Known Member

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    How to argue theologically:

    Take Theological terms.

    Sprinkle liberally.

    Declare victory.

    You aren't even using an accurate term for what he is stating.
     
  10. holo

    holo former Christian

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    So is your pre-tribelunastic acclostinathusiasm. In fact, it's so Clobinastive it almost looks like ehtopoluminism. You have oblastuvinated.
     
  11. Uphill Battle

    Uphill Battle Well-Known Member

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    :D :D
     
  12. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    ^_^ That was cute lol
     
  13. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Indeed and I have never been comfortable with a forensic justification that does not begin the sanctification process. It makes no sense Scripturally since the Holy Spirit is comes and dwells with the believer.

    The question remains, can you go to heaven without good works. I guess that would depend on the works wouldn't it. Take for instance the thief on the cross, there can be no real question that he repented earnestly. Can we say his confession is a work of righteousness?

    Paul labored in the ministry fields of Asia Minor and the Gospel spread across the Mediterranean basin like wildfire. Still, Paul never made it a point of doctrine that any part of our salvation is by our own efforts. Even the works of righteousness are by grace .

    That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (Eph 3:6-9) ​

    Indeed justification is never alone but even the works of righteousness that are the fruits of the Gospel are by grace, through faith in the one who loved us and gave himself for us.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  14. suzie

    suzie Senior Member

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    If you are not freed from sins grip then you are still bound to it.....

    I took the gift! Signed sealed ----delivered----I am HIS
     
  15. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    Do you believe that in the end everyone will be saved? Making a decision to follow Christ is something that we do, but it is necessary that we do it.

    Didn't you just say repenting is something man does?
     
  16. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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    Yes, I have actually. Care to prove me wrong?

    Why don't you look the word up instead of resulting to childish remarks?

    Honestly, I don't know if he even knows what he believes.
     
  17. Uphill Battle

    Uphill Battle Well-Known Member

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    If I must, although I'm sure you have a pat answer stored up.

    Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius. It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature (which, being created from God, was divine), and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid. Thus, Adam's sin was "to set a bad example" for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin. Pelagianism views the role of Jesus as "setting a good example" for the rest of humanity (thus counteracting Adam's bad example). In short, humanity has full control, and thus full responsibility, for its own salvation in addition to full responsibility for every sin (the latter insisted upon by both proponents and opponents of Pelagianism). According to Pelagian doctrine, since humanity is no longer in need of any of God's graces beyond the creation of will,[1] Jesus' sacrifice is devoid of its redemptive quality.


    That has little to do with what has been said in this thread.
     
  18. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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    No repentence is Pelagianism, Uphill.
     
  19. Uphill Battle

    Uphill Battle Well-Known Member

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    did you bother to read the definition of Pelagianism?
     
  20. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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    Yup
     
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