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Can you really get to heaven without works????

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by treesitter, Jun 20, 2007.

  1. Yes, you need to have good works to justify your faith

  2. No, the only thing you need to do is pray the sinners prayer

  3. It is a balance; you are saved by faith but your works justify your faith

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  1. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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    Which is why we should "approach" salvation with fear and trembling. Anything could happen and if often does.

    Yes, you will have condemned yourself each time you willfully sin. That one sin done contemplatively is enough to be Judged to experience hell. So you cannot just repent once: you must be contrite, repentant, confessatory, and penitent each time.

    12 Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

    St. Paul's Letter to the Christian Philippians, chapter 2, verse 12.

    I'll trust the Apostle's word, with all due respect.

    Some people I know have apostated, fallen into heresy, or refuse to be penitent. It happens all the time to many people. I hope and pray that they turn around and begin the process of reconciliation, for if they don't, they are in grave danger.

    The Holy Spirit is God, not "the power of God." Furthermore, while He

    Furthermore, we must cooperate with the Holy Spirit, or else nothing is done. We are not robots or atomatons.

    We are still sinners for we still sin both inadvertently and willfully. And yes, it is our nature to sin. Baptism may wipe original sin away, regenerate, and make us habitable for the Holy Spirit, but it does not fully restore us nor does it change our human nature or repair completely our broken souls. We may have a new identity, but it is as among those seeking reconciliation and have thusly been born from above. It doesn't mean an automatic free ticket out of hell.

    Is. You are still a sinner, as am I. To deny that is to willfully sin.

    That is Pelagianism, not Christianity. Pelagianism is not compatable and is condemned by Scripture, Tradition, and Reason.

    Knowledge? That is Gnostic. Salvation isn't a secret but available to even the most severely "retarded" of people.

    Sorry, but that too is Pelagian, not Christian.

    Again, Pelagianism.

    Pelagianism.

    I am not "good." I may have good intentions and deep within I have good desires, but I am not "good."

    Sounds okay, although could you please clarify what you mean by "works justify your faith"?
     
  2. suzie

    suzie Senior Member

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    I have been saved by grace through faith--it was a gift from God. I was sealed unto eternal life adopted heir to the kingdom--I have full rights of His family. Once you belong as adopted unto the family of God, it does not become undone. You are His forever.

    Nothing more can make you more saved.... no work....it is a gift and it is eternal.
     
  3. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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    You are mistaking Baptism for assured salvation.

    If you willfully sin just once, that is enough reason for God to Judge you to experience hell.

    There is no "Get Out of Hell Free" card.
     
  4. IamAdopted

    IamAdopted Well-Known Member

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    If you sin just once after becoming one of Gods family does not send you to hell. For if we sin we can go to God and confess our sin. He is just and able to forgive us of our sin and CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness. But those who are born again actually hate sin. :) It just goes against their new nature that was born of God.
     
  5. suzie

    suzie Senior Member

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    I certainly am not mistaking baptism for salvation. Baptism is an outward act of inner conversion. You can go to heaven and have salvation without being baptized. We are justified freely by grace through faith to all who believe. Justified--made not guilty. It is a one time act that lasts a lifetime!
    We all sin--we no longer live to sin. We are no longer bound to sin but free by God's grace through Jesus Christ. Our sin--past present and future are forgiven.
     
  6. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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    If you sin, you have condemned yourself.

    If you think it won't condemn you, that just makes it even worse.

    OSAS is not ancient and is contrary to what has always been tought.

    Ditto my above.
     
  7. IamAdopted

    IamAdopted Well-Known Member

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    I do not condemn myself for there is only one who condemns.. :) and He is for me and not against me.. For He forever lives to intercede for me. For there is therfore NO condemnation to me for I am in Christ Jesus. I hate sin. :) For I have been born again and have the Spirit of Christ in me. Jesus died for my past present and future sins but that does not mean that I go out and sin. But it does not mean I have not sinned. But if I do sin I have an advocate.
     
  8. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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    For someone who is so fond of sola scriptura, I'm surprised you ignore what the Holy Book says on the matter:

    "Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." -St. John 3:17

    "Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things." -Romans 2:1

    If you willingly sin, you are excommunicated yourself from Him.

    You will be condemned for every willing sin that you are not penitent of.

    And "hating sin" isn't an excuse. If anything, hating hate is contradictory.

    That means nothing if you sin and think nothing serious of it.

    Because if you do so willingly, you will have condemned yourself.

    He'll Advocate that you weren't penitent if you aren't penitent. And you will not like the consequences.
     
  9. suzie

    suzie Senior Member

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    Amen IamAdopted!!

    By His blood I am saved. Jesus died so that I might have eternal life. As Iam states, Jesus is my advocate. Through Him I live eternally. I am the "kings kid" In the ancient times, when someone such as a slave was adopted into a family, they were given full heritage as sons. They had all rights as a full blooded son would have. They could not ever be "kicked out" or disinherited. This would be the understanding when it states that we are adopted into the kingdom. It would be understood as an eternal seal.
     
  10. IamAdopted

    IamAdopted Well-Known Member

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    Okay lets look at Romans a little deeper shall we..
    Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
    Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
    Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
    Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
    Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
    Rom 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
    Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
    Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
    [QUOTE]If you willingly sin, you are excommunicated yourself from Him.
    [/QUOTE] Jesus lives in me by His Spirit How can I possible do what you say here.?
    Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
    Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
    Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
    Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
    Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
    Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

     
  11. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Yes you can but it will be as by fire:

    If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor 3:14, 15) ​

    Justification is by grace through faith:

    But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:... Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:21-22, 27, 28)​

    Surely you will quote the passage in James that says faith without works is dead. The irony of that statement is that he is rebuking Jewish Christians who were still still being lured by a false sense of security from deeds of the law (i.e. works). The fact is you are saved (not can be, but are) by faith apart from works. The thing is it's a miserable way to make it into heaven because the reward you receive which are the works of grace last forever. The things you pursue in this life that you do instead of letting the grace within you do it's work just get burned up. Those carnal believers who arrive with only their hope are still saved but only themselves while those who labor as disciples and become disciple makers shine with the brightness of the sun.

    And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. (Danial 12:3)​

    By the way, did you know that justification and righteousness are two forms of the same word? You are saved (justified) by faith for good works (righteousness deeds) not by them.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  12. "We confess faith alone, but not a faith that is alone." -Calvin

    Faith alone justifies the sinner before God, but good works are the innevitable and nigh-immediate result of that blessed regeneration.

    Luther, Calvin, Melanchton, Chemnitz, Beza, and Knox though so. And who am I to disagree with the great reformational giants when they actually agree on something?
     
  13. holo

    holo former Christian

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    No, even if our own hearts condemn us, He is greater. There IS NO condemnation for me.

    As will I. Read the rest of Paul's letters. Se how he describes salvation and victory and faith as GIFTS.

    How do you cooperate with the Spirit? What is it the Spirit can't do, that He needs you to do?

    How many times are the believers called sinners? There is ONE instance of Paul referring to himself as "the greatest sinner," and I'll bet any day that he was talking about his past. But even if he didn't, the NT refers to the believer as a SAINT 63 times.

    You were a sinner by nature, you were born a sinner. But haven't you been born again? Would God give birth to a new sinner?

    Speak for yourself. It's not MY nature to sin :)

    IMO baptism doesn't wipe anything. Paul said he was GLAD he didn't baptise people. It was sort of a sign, like circumcision. Water doesn't change how God sees us.

    God wouldn't send his own children to hell.

    Well, GOD doesn't call me a sinner, so... :)

    I wouldn't know. I don't know what pelagianism is.

    Paul often referred to the gospel as a "secret" or a "mystery" - God's plan was hidden from men until Jesus had died and rose from the dead and gave us His own Spirit.

    Sucks to be you then :)
     
  14. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    Your post to IAA made no sense whatsoever PaladinValer. Your post to her appeared like a diliberate attempt to disagree just because you wanted to. There was nothing invalid in her post and nothing valid against what she posted.

    I never saw anything quite like that.


    Fireinfolding
     
  15. IamAdopted

    IamAdopted Well-Known Member

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    Says on what matter?
    Paul is talking about judging others if you are doing the same thing. Kind of like the Pot and kettle. :)
    now that would be impossible to do for since He lives in me. :) He has promised to never leave nor forsake me. It says no where if. :)
    :scratch:
    Who is willfully sinning?
    This makes no sense. For it is His death and ressurection that I have my rightousness. Not in anything I do. He is my advocate. He is my hope. :)
     
  16. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    What if you sin but forgot that you did? For example: If I sinned on a Monday morning 2 weeks ago, but forgot that I did it, what happens then?

    I think what I'm saying is what if I willfully sinned but didnt realize it?
     
  17. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

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    He's talking about how any sin you do condemns yourself.

    He doesn't in those who are not penitent.

    He will always receive people once again, for Baptism and Chrism are indeed forever, but if you turn, you are squandered it.

    I never accused anyone.

    Hewill Advocate you are not worthy if you live in unpenitent sin.

    That certainly is a problem, isn't it?

    That is called "ego."
     
  18. IamAdopted

    IamAdopted Well-Known Member

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    Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
    Rom 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
    Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

    He sure does. This is what born again means. When we come to Christ He dwells with in us. We have turned from our sin and turned to Christ. :)


    He never leaves them. Once we come to Christ we are His. Sealed with the Holy Spirit. We have a new nature. :) He spoke and said I am with you Always. He did not speak and say I am with you until you sin then I leave but I will come back once you are pennit. This cannot be found in scripture.
    I wasn't worthy in the first place and neither is anyone else. :) This is why Christ came. For it is not in what I do but in What HE has done.
     
  19. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    That wasn't much help. I was looking for a solution.
     
  20. IamAdopted

    IamAdopted Well-Known Member

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    Christ and His life, death and ressurection.. :)
     
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