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Can you lose your salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by gradyll, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    A few words:

    I believe in eternal security. It is important however to understand that there is no such thing as truly being born again, only to reach some sort of place in your life where we truly say, "I no longer desire to go to heaven; I'd rather be in hell with my friends".

    Why do I believe the above is true?

    Have you ever been so convinced of a particular truth that nothing can turn you from that truth?

    I can only take what the Scripture tells me about the place called hell, and subsequently, the lake of fire, to determine what these two places hold for those who those who enter therein.

    I consider the text of Luke 16 when the rich man dies, and is so overcome with the reality of the truth of hell, that he begs Abraham to send warning back to his five brethren so they would not enter its gates.

    If the Holy Spirit (HS) has indeed impressed upon the heart of an individual the truth of the hell we each deserve, would not that same HS daily remind us of the great salvation we have in Christ Jesus?

    Much has been said in this thread about 'willful sin' after salvation, but truly, can we honestly say any of our sin is NOT willful? Do we not honestly think prior to telling lies, or committing any of the many sins we do daily ... whether they be inward, or outward visible sins?

    The text of Hebrews 6 has been presented as a proof text for "loosing faith" or some other term meaning we are no longer saved ... yet, the exact opposite is actually taught in the text.

    10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John

    When Jesus said, "and they shall never perish", was He speaking in ignorance of the willful sins that He knew people would commit?
     
  2. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Oh, you're saying you just made up a hypothetical scenario. Anyone can make up hypothetical scenarios which contradict scripture. Doesn't work in the real world.
     
  3. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Paul said of the Thessalonians, "we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you" 1Th 1:4 He then goes on to explain how he knows that. One such evidence is "in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit." 1Th 1:6 He also speaks of "your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ." 1Th 1:3

    Now there are those who, unlike the Thessalonians, are ones "who hear the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away." Mt 13:20,21 The joy that comes from believing the gospel of grace endures in the midst of opposition.

    Granted that colleges today challenge Christian faith. But the upsides are that they reveal those of genuine faith and distinguish them from those whose faith is not a deeply rooted conviction. And secondly for those with deeply root faith it provides a learning opportunity for them to develop their understanding of the faith and opportunities to communicate it in the midst of a hostile environment as the early Christians did. The testing of one's faith develops maturity.

    Genuine believers won't be lost to apostasy through trials of faith.
     
  4. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I can show great commentaries that teach apostacy doctrine. J Vernon magee radio program and commentary set through the bible on Hebrews six says one can forfeit salvation. I am just saying that the true evidence is in the actual Bible. Not someone's interpretation of the bible. To say that all the greats are Calvinistic and therefore Calvinism is correct is called the bandwagon fallacy. Evolutionists use this fallacy all the time to say the consensus of scientists believe in evolution therefore it is accurate. No, popular opinion does not make a particular subject true or false the facts do.
     
  5. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    Your conclusions don't match the actual scripture posted. You confess that one may receive the word gladly and not get rooted. But what you forgot to say was what the bible mentions about that verse. That they sprouted up. See if the gospel conceives in a soul they are saved. If there is a small sprout, even the size of a mustard seed, there is salvation. But the cares of the world choke it out and it never gets planted fully and the point is it never bears fruit. There is no indication from that actual passage in Matthew 13 that they were unsaved. Plants are alive, not dead. Never the less if fruit is not born he is chopped off by the vine dresser and cast in the fire.
     
  6. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    You seem to be confusing the parables.

    "The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away." Mt 13:20-21

    Moral of the story - a faith that is not rooted is not a faith that saves. Understand also in that parable the person is the soil, not the seed.
     
  7. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I had the hardest time in the past with the logistics of apostacy. I believed OSAS. Once saved always saved. Until someone gave me a message by Jon courson on Hebrews 6. In 1997 I listened to it. I dove into the Greek all night. He was correct. There was nothing in the Greek that could save my view of OSAS. I was forever changed. See I got saved in a Calvinistic church and that is why I believed OSAS, not because of the Bible. See article below, this is a congressional candidate that says he is a pedophile. Now if this guy was saved at your church, led to Christ by you, so you knew it was genuine. Repented of sex outside of marriage when he was saved. Prayed regularly and evangelized for over ten years Converting sinners. Did a small group bible study. Later had a family, and became a pastor of a non denomination. But still had a problem with kiddy porn. This small sin, leavened the whole loaf. He llost his marriage and his pastoriate, he molested his kids, the judge gave custody to the wife so he could never see his kids. He started a website, "pedophiles who believe in Jesus." He started a new church in san franscisco of pedophiles in castro district, he wrote a book to promote christian pedophilia. You would assume he was never saved because of your theological bias, because no christian would do such a thing. Yet it happens every day. An evangelist that travelled with Billy Graham rejected the faith after decades of being saved. Anyway back to the other guy..... But "things that accompany salvation" were in his life. He sprouted and brought many into the kingdom. Hundreds of genuine repentant converts. Yet he had a small addictive sin that leavened the whole loaf. He was addicted to child pornography, and rather than dealing with it, getting counseling and accountability partners he decided to open a church of christian pedophiles. Now i know you would normally believe he was never save but because you led him to christ, and seen him evangelize for ten years, you knew he understood and accepted Jesus and the gospel fully. But sin leavened the whole loaf. It was not that his sin was unforgivable l, it was that he no longer was ashamed of his sin, became proud of it, taught it publically. That one sin caused him to doubt his faith and the accuracy of the bible. Why would Jesus forbid him from loving a child in this way? He starts to hate Jesus, and loathe christianity, again all because of one sin. Note the themes doubting drifting, departing, all critical subsection headings of hebrews chapters 1-5 leading up to apostacy of hebrews chapter 6.That is a sign of an unregenerate. Here is the article. This story is not far fetched: Congressional Candidate In Virginia Admits He’s A Pedophile
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
  8. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    Sir again, read the passage carefully. The Same One YOU Just quoted. Sorry for caps, I am on a phone. It says he received it gladly in joy. Joy is a fruit of the spirit, especially in salvation. What is more joyous that receiving initial salvation? Let's move on to what else it says. It say he sprouted up quickly. He started evangelizing the lost, lifting hands in worship, praying for healing for everybody, including his pet hamster. He had a child like faith. His faith was small but he sprouted quickly. Unfortunately he didn't get rooted in a church fellowship, eventually skeptics in his class at college convinced him because of evil and suffering in the world that chilristianity is wrong. Why would God send peopLe to eternal hell for doing a temporary sin? He starts to loathe Jesus, and christianity. All because his inputs were skeptics and not believers when he was initially saved and no one invited him to church after being saved. That is an important lesson on follow up after a crusade. We can get saved but if we are not rooted in the church, we won't get planted deep enough, and the sun of a trial, scorched our small faith, the loss of a loved one, makes us doubt God's love, and the gospel message. Our end is worse than the beginning. We become twice the son of hell, than we ever were. We come to CF as an athiest and sharing how our christianity did not work, and how there is no God.
     
  9. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    Sir I missed your post. It is vary easy for a simplistic theologian to say that no one leaves salvation, that once saved God forever changes outlr heart so that we never doubt him again, but life tells us different. Here is an executive in the Billy Graham association, one of the guys who hired billy graham and travelled with him, he wrote a book about how he left the faith. Farewell to God

    Again, it's simpler to say OSAS, but the bible simply doesn't teach OSAS, it teaches eternal security, but not OSAS. Sometimes the truth is not the most simplest interpretation. But to be honest as a Calvinistic I always had problems with people leaving the church and becoming skeptics. Out of about 5 of my original college group friends three of the five are now athiest or agnostic. But once I realized the truth of apostasy, I no longer felt bad about all those leaving the faith. I realized that we can never do enough to make sure every soul is planeed perfectly deep in fertile soil. Often we shelter the new converts from storms and sunlight, yet water and light is what causes plants to grow. Again it is easy to say they were never saved in arrogance. But the truth is we don't know their state. They could have left the faith.
     
  10. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Heb 6:4-6 Falling Away
    Many Christians ask themselves the question as to whether they have at some time in the past fallen away in the sense of which Hebrews speaks of in this section. But if they are presently believers in Christ and are walking in a repentant lifestyle, then according to this section they never had fallen away. For if they had fallen away it would have been impossible to have renewed them to repentance. But since they repented they could not have fallen away in the sense spoken of here.

    What does it mean by "falling away" here? It means to recrucify Christ after having followed Christ, having been enlightened and given sufficient evidence of the truth of His Word. It is a rejection of Christ himself, as the Jews had rejected him at calvary.

    Does this section mean a Christian could lose his salvation? Although that is a possible interpretation if one reads just this section alone, it seems inconsistent with overs verses. 1John 2:19, for example, indicates that true believers do not even "fall away". However, there are also many verses that indicate that not everyone who calls themselves a "Christian" actually is a believer (Matt 7:21). And if one is a real believer, then there should be some inevitable "fruit" as external evidence of their belief (Matt 7:19-20). Heb 6:7,8 indicates that this person is not such a believer, but merely a nominal Christian.

    The situation described in this section may be likened to the time when Israel came out of Egypt, through the desert to the Jordan River, and despite all that they experienced of God's power, they refused to enter the promise land. So God sent them back into the desert to die.

    This section describes a person who has been enlightened to understand the gospel. But understanding it doesn't make one saved. They have had a taste of the heavenly gift, possibly referring to the Holy Spirit which Peter calls a gift in Acts 2:38. In which case, "tasted" and "shared in" both refer to their experience with the Holy Spirit. The Greek word for "shared in" (metochos) is literally "became partners with". It is first used in the New Testament in Lu 5:7 "And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink." This is the type of relationship that the Holy Spirit has with those He is helping to come to Christ. Such people do have an experience with the Holy Spirit even though they don't have the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit promises to believers as in Eph 1:13,14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

    They also experienced how good the Word of God is, although had yet to really put their faith in it. They also experience miracles, which made them even more accountable in God's sight just as Jesus had said: "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you." Matt 11:21,22

    A person who has such knowledge and experience, and rejects Christ will be permanently lost. Having reject what the Holy Spirit had been revealing to him, he has sinned against the Holy Spirit, and as Jesus says, "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation." Mr 3:29 Having led the person to the point of salvation, having given him sufficient evidence to make a decision, and having been rejected, the Holy Spirit breaks His partnership with the unbeliever and never returns. For "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."Heb 6:8

    Kenneth Wuest
    (A Translator of the NASB)
    on Heb 6:4

    Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, (NIV)
    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (AV)

    "Partakers of the Holy Ghost"
    We must be careful to note that the Greek word translated "partakers" does not mean "possessors," in the sense that these Hebrews possessed the Holy Spirit as an indwelling Person who had come to take up His permanent abode in their hearts. The word is a compound of the Greek verb "to have or hold", and a preposition meaning "with" thus "to hold with." It is used in Luke 5:7 where it is translated "partners," signifying one who co-operates with another in a common task or undertaking. It is used in Hebrews 1:9 where the angels are "fellows" of our Lord, partners or associates with Him in the work of salvation. It is used in Hebrews 3:1 where the recipients of this letter are called participators in the heavenly calling. That is, they participated together in the heavenly calling. These Hebrews had left the earthly calling of the nation Israel, and had identified themselves with the Church which has a heavenly calling. It is used in Hebrews 3:14, where it speaks of those who participate together in the Lord Jesus.

    The word (metochos) was so used in secular Greek. Moulton and Milligan give examples of its usage in the following phrases: "We, Dionysius son of Socrates and the associate collectors;" Pikos son of Pamonthes and his colleagues," "the Joint-owner of a holding," "I am unable to take part in the cultivation," "Some do so because they are partners in their misdeeds." Thus the word signifies one who participates with another in a common activity or possession. It is so used here. These Hebrews became participators in the Holy Spirit insofar as an unsaved person can do so, namely, in the sense that they willingly co-operated with Him in receiving His pre-salvation ministry, that of leading them on step by step toward the act of faith. He had led them into the act of repentance. The next step would be that of faith. Here they were in danger of turning their backs upon the Spirit and returning to the sacrifices. Peter in his first epistle (1:2) in the words, "through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience," speaks of this work of the Holy Spirit on the unsaved, setting them apart from unbelief to faith. This word in its context does not at all imply that these Hebrews had been born of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, anointed with the Spirit, baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ, or filled with the Spirit. This work of the Holy Spirit in leading them on towards faith was a once-for-all work, so thoroughly done that it needed never to be repeated. However, there was nothing permanent of itself in this work, for the work was only a means to an end. This is shown by the aorist participle used, referring to the mere fact, not a perfect, speaking of a finished act having present results. The fact that the writer did not use the perfect tense here, which is a specialized tense, but rather the aorist, which is the maid of all work, points to the incompleteness of the work of the Spirit in the case of these Hebrews. So far as the work had been done, it was perfect, thorough. But it would not be complete until the Hebrews accepted the proffered faith from the Spirit. The incompleteness of the work would be due, therefore, not to the Spirit, but to their willingness to go on as a partner or cooperator with the Spirit.
     
  11. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Seems you're basing your conviction primarily on anecdotal evidence.
     
  12. bathelter01

    bathelter01 New Member

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    So for someone who has inadvertently fallen into this state and does not want to be there, what then is their next step?
     
  13. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    again I can quote many commentaries that believe for and against apostacy doctrines. So posting them here is ok, but not conclusive.

    with all of the above I only seen one verse indicating that a believer cannot fall away.

    1 john 2:19

    "they went out from us because they were not of us, but if they were of us they would not have gone out"

    or something like that.

    I have answered this verse already.

    and if this is the only verse indicating that one may not lose salvation, I included half a dozen verses in mark 13, and another two or three in hebrews six.

    if you wish to debate those, I would love it.

    commentaries are great, but they are ultimately human and are not God's word.

    no more than a pastor can be imperfect as well.

    So again, it's harder to adress long posts, but if you would simply post just the scripture itself, we can adress that.

    so lets tackle 1 john 2:19

    They went out of us because they were not of us.

    here I can replace "went out" with "apostacy" and here is what it reads.

    they fell away because they were not of us, but if they were of us they would not have fallen away.

    does that make sense?

    it does not defeat apostacy, but supports it.

    ultimately it's saying they were not elect because they fell away.

    and I agree they weren't.

    I believe if they died while they were saved they may in fact have been elect.

    but election is based on foreknowledge, we know in romans.

    so in essence God sees if we will stay the path and elects us based on foreknowledge we won't fall away.

    I hope that makes sense. If there is fruit of the spirit, joy , love peace patience, that is fruit of a saved individual.

    if one is still in bondage to sin, struggling with sin, yes there is grace and mercy, as long as you don't stay in the sin.

    repentance every now and again, keeps our hearts pliable. And the more frequent the repentance, the humbler we are and the more God can use us.
     
  14. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    yes sir, addiction is a big problem. If it is pornography, i made another post in another thread, I will post it here:

    Am I truly saved?
     
  15. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    Ok so here you have catholic priests raping children. Ok, I am not saying they are apostates, as there may be some type of bondage to sin here, and addiction of sort. But if there is no shame, and if the pope says that it is ok, and good, then you have a problem. I didn't read the whole article, but I presume they are saying if a priest has a problem that they can get help and they don't lose their job right away. I would question that ethic personally, I would think that they should not be around children at all. In california if you are a predator, you have it on your record and you are actually on a sexual predator map in the city. You cannot get a job around children, and I don't think you can live a quarter mile from any parks or schools. and I agree with all of that stuff. So I am a bit saddened over the pope's view of this. Why should the unsaved be protecting our kids more than the church?

    U.N. Report: Vatican Policies Allowed Priests To Rape Children
     
  16. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I use other scripture to address these arguments.

    1. Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

    Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

    Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

    As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

    2. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).



    Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.



    The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

    Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.


    The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.



    We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.



    Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us everything up front with the exception of dwelling in heaven right now, but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have given it away (satan wants it).
     
  17. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I am adding this to the OP. See I believe christians should not live in sin, but in the case of addictive sin I believe grace covers and mercy is in place. For this believer who is under conviction of Holy spirit, is contrite and has shame, there is grace. They get couseling, read books on victory, and get accountability partners. To those who are proud of sin, a homosexual who attends gay pride rallies, and opened a blog homosexuals for christ. To those the bible has warnings of apostacy. See you have grace to the humble and the law to the proud. To different ends to two different people. Now Calvinism has a problem see I was thinking today while driving that is someone has an addictive sin, a Calvinist will simply say they were never saved because they didnt adhere to the perseverance of holiness, which is a calvinist doctrine. So there is a problem of assurety here. Now someone may adopt a similar view that we have here, but that is not in calvinism classically speaking. So under calvinism one is saved because they have fruit of the spirit, and they persevere their entire life in holiness, and only at the end of their life if they persevered in holiness, can they say they were in fact elect. If they stumbled with homosexuality for a year like I did, then they were never saved. So at any point in their life if they go through a trial and stumble, they were never saved. So there is no eternal security there. I was never proud of my homosexuality when I was in it, I was addicted to it, due to some anxiety in my life from losing a job and stress, but when my anxiety was treated and I got a good union job, as well as having counseling, medication management, and lots of prayer, I was healed 100% of my homosexuality. I tried to repent, but every time I feared for my job the thoughts came back. It was a fear of insecurity over my male coworkers, and that fear turned into desire. Again, once my anxiety was treated and God provided a good stable job, those temptations went away 100%. What if I ran into a calvinist during that year I was gay? They would have said I did not persevere in holiness and was not saved, was never saved. That would have destroyed me. I loved Jesus so much. I was teaching evangelism for the previous three years. I think there was plenty of fruit in my life, but I had a small addictive sin. So until I could fully be free from that I was not fully filled with the spirit, but i was certainly saved. So again in conclusion it's simplistic to say catholic priests who molest children were never saved. Sometimes they need counseling, and prayer. But for sure I believe they should lose their place of authority over children, and be placed on a predator list. It's nit the children's fault that these grown men have issues. Protect the children. But I would not say they were never saved or not saved. Now if they are proud over sin, and have given up the fight long ago and are comfortable in sin, then there is law to the proud. And if they are humble and broken over it, there is grace to the humble. I hope this makes sense. This topic is very personal and powerful, the gospel was never meant to simply save us but to turn us into amazing witnesses to Gods power. Since my victory over homosexuality, God has given victory over pornography and self gratification, and even over eating. God has turned and blessed my life abundantly in the past six years and even more so in the last year, where I started praying and reading His word regularly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  18. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    But can't the same be said of your own interpretation of scripture?
    Feel free to comment on verses in Mark 13 and Heb 6 and I can share my comments on those passages, I've already done so regarding Heb 6.
    Again you fail to note the hypothetical situation John speaks of in the middle of that verse
    If they had been of us (ONCE SAVED)
    They would have remained with us (ALWAYS SAVED)

    The reason why that's the case is summarized in 1John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." Those who have been born of God are incapable of continuing in sin because of the nature of the rebirth. And as such they cannot sin by leaving the faith - which would be a permanent thing.
    [/QUOTE]
     
  19. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Concerning your salvation-by-works interpretation whereby one does not have eternal life until some time in the future after one has worked for it, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 John says, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life" 1John 5:13 Believers already have eternal life at the present moment. So your interpretation is flawed.

    What Paul is talking about is what Jesus was talking about in John 4 "Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest! And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together." John 4:35,36 He's talking about gaining eternal life for OTHER PEOPLE, by sharing the gospel with them.
     
  20. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    Not someone's interpretation of the bible....??? What do you think you're presenting?
     
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