Can you lose your salvation?

[ClementofA]

If you take the mark of the beast, do you lose your salvation? That should answer it.

What would OSAS teachers say? A true believer could not take the mark of the beast?

 

[eleos1954]

Not really. I was just curious on people's opinions. I guess in a way it matters. Because if you can lose your salvation than Jesus lied.

One can lose their salvation. One can change their mind and totally turn away from God, see it all the time. They can repent and be forgiven, but if not then they will be lost.

We are to repent and receive forgiveness, but we are also to abide in Him ... and He will abide in us.

John 15:6

If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

1 Corinthians 15:2

And by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Technically yes and technically no. Its kind of a mystery. Just like how God has promised us Eternal life. Yet even commiting one sin can cause us to die again. What's stopping another fall from happening? What's to stop us from deciding to sin when we have our new bodies? It happened to Adam and Eve and they were created perfect too. So in the same sense yes we will have the free will to choose to sin (or leave the faith) but we won't because we will know the consequence of sin and the consequences of leaving the faith. Plus its the job of the Holy Spirit (who God has promised will live within us for forever) to keep us from sinning or leaving the faith. Am I making sense?

It is quite a mystery. I believe it is synergetic. That we much choose to
abide and He will give us the ability to overcome temptation and endure to the end. However I also believe if someone wishes to turn away from God He will allow that also. I believe this because I believe God wants our love and fellowship. These are things that can’t be taken by force but must be given freely of our own will and desire.

 

[mark kennedy]

Isn't that why Jesus said that it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born (Matt 26:24). If Judas was never a true believer, then why would Jesus say that? Judas along with the rest of the disciples was one of the elect as he along with the rest of these men were given by the Father to Jesus as stated in Jn 17:6,9,11,12. There is no difference between Judas and the other disciples as described in Jn 17:6-12 except for the fact that he betrayed Jesus and was lost.
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. v.12
Despite being kept in Jesus' name, Judas by his sin of greed and betrayal apostatized from the faith and was lost.

One of you is a devil, Judas was already a child of perdition when called. Jesus was revealing something, certain people will never recieve the grace and peace of Christ. Judas seems confused the night he betrayed Christ, it's been my experience they always are.

 

[Oldmantook]

What would OSAS teachers say? A true believer could not take the mark of the beast?

Yes they always say that because they have a crystal ball (sarcasm). The verse says "Anyone...who worships the beast and takes the mark." Anyone means everyone which refers to both unbelievers and believers. Again, they ignore the word If which indicates choice and means that is possible for a believer to take the mark. They believe that the elect will never deny Christ and always persevere. However Peter denied Christ (was forgiven/restored). Judas betrayed Christ and was lost. No Calvinist that I have questioned has stated that he/she would take the mark because they know the consequences of such a choice. It directly contradicts their doctrine. Instead they reply that they would never take it under any circumstances to avoid answering the question.

 

[Not David]

That and John 10:27-29 are among my favorite verses in the Bible. Because in them they teach that not only will God never turn away a person who truly wants salvation but he will also eternally keep that person and that person will NEVER be lost. I was wondering when someone would bring up those verses.

God also wills to save everyone. (1 Tim. 2:3-6). Why aren't you an universalist then?

 

[Oldmantook]

One of you is a devil, Judas was already a child of perdition when called. Jesus was revealing something, certain people will never recieve the grace and peace of Christ. Judas seems confused the night he betrayed Christ, it's been my experience they always are.

You did not deal with the John 17:6-12 passage which goes against your held belief. We both know that all scripture must be reconciled with our doctrine particularly those that appear to go against what we believe. Are you able to offer your counter argument to Jn 17:6-12?
I offer my counter argument that Judas was already a child of perdition. My answer is of course he was. As I stated earlier, Judas was given by the Father to Jesus, which is only descriptive of the elect. Although of the elect, Judas harbored the sin of greed as he made a practice of stealing from the moneybag of which he was in charge (Jn 12:6). 1 Jn 3:8 states "The one practicing sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning."
Thus there is no contradiction here. Judas was of the devil because he practiced stealing.
Though of the elect, he was no longer a child of God, but of the devil. He was betraying Christ all along by his habitual sin. And he ultimately became a son of perdition when he betrayed Christ to the captors.
That is why the Apostle Paul warned the brethren in Rome in Rom 8:13 that if they live according to the flesh, they will die. Eternal life is not unconditional but is dependent on believing (Jn 3:16) and obeying (Heb 5:9). Judas did not obey, did he?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, I mean, Judas did miracles. So, he did believe, and was able to do miracles by the power issued to him through his belief.

Do you have the Bible verses that show Judas was able to perform miracles because of his belief?

I thought Jesus/God gave them the power to perform miracles.

 

[Not David]

Do you have the Bible verses that show Judas was able to perform miracles because of his belief?

I thought Jesus/God gave them the power to perform miracles.

Nobody can perform miracles by themselves.

 

[mark kennedy]

You did not deal with the John 17:6-12 passage which goes against your held belief. We both know that all scripture must be reconciled with our doctrine particularly those that appear to go against what we believe. Are you able to offer your counter argument to Jn 17:6-12?
I offer my counter argument that Judas was already a child of perdition. My answer is of course he was. As I stated earlier, Judas was given by the Father to Jesus, which is only descriptive of the elect. Although of the elect, Judas harbored the sin of greed as he made a practice of stealing from the moneybag of which he was in charge (Jn 12:6). 1 Jn 3:8 states "The one practicing sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning."
Thus there is no contradiction here. Judas was of the devil because he practiced stealing.
Though of the elect, he was no longer a child of God, but of the devil. He was betraying Christ all along by his habitual sin. And he ultimately became a son of perdition when he betrayed Christ to the captors.
That is why the Apostle Paul warned the brethren in Rome in Rom 8:13 that if they live according to the flesh, they will die. Eternal life is not unconditional but is dependent on believing (Jn 3:16) and obeying (Heb 5:9). Judas did not obey, did he?

John 17:6-12 tells us that Judas was a son of perdition and Jesus tells us one of you is a devil, I don't see a problem. Judas in John 6 was already devil and during the last night did what devils do. You want to make this about habitual sin, it's obscene, you've twisted these verses to your own devices, shame on you.

 

[ToBeLoved]

One of you is a devil, Judas was already a child of perdition when called. Jesus was revealing something, certain people will never recieve the grace and peace of Christ. Judas seems confused the night he betrayed Christ, it's been my experience they always are.

Exactly! Jesus both man and God, being God would never have been fooled or mislead by Judas.

Jesus saw (as God) into the heart. Each of His disciples hearts.

As I believe Collassians said, Jesus lost none the Father gave Him but the son of perdition so scripture could be fulfilled.

 

[mark kennedy]

Do you have the Bible verses that show Judas was able to perform miracles because of his belief?

I thought Jesus/God gave them the power to perform miracles.

Lord Lord they will cry, did we not do mighty works in your name and he will respond, depart from me, I never knew you. Do all the miracles you want, it makes little difference if you do not know Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Nobody can perform miracles by themselves.

I didn’t say they could.

What I questioned was the explanation given by the poster I replied to as to where that power was received from.

Did you read the post I was replying to?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Lord Lord they will cry, did we not do mighty works in your name and he will respond, depart from me, I never knew you. Do all the miracles you want, it makes little difference if you do not know Christ.

Good verse. Would definitely apply to Judas.

 

[mark kennedy]

Exactly! Jesus both man and God, being God would never have been fooled or mislead by Judas.

Jesus saw (as God) into the heart. Each of His disciples hearts.

As I believe Collassians said, Jesus lost none the Father gave Him but the son of perdition so scripture could be fulfilled.

That's John 17:6-12, the Upper Room Discourse. Jesus picked a child of perdition to be on the ministry team of the Apostles because no ministry is immune to one of them creeping in unawares. The day would come when they had to deal with these children of perdition, Jesus was showing them how it's done.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That's John 17:6-12, the Upper Room Discourse. Jesus picked a child of perdition to be on the ministry team of the Apostles because no ministry is immune to one of them creeping in unawares. The day would come when they had to deal with these children of perdition, Jesus was showing them how it's done.

Your right. John.

 

[Danthemailman]

Lord Lord they will cry, did we not do mighty works in your name and he will respond, depart from me, I never knew you. Do all the miracles you want, it makes little difference if you do not know Christ.

Amen! In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Judas Iscariot was one of the 12 disciples, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him! (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12).

 

[mark kennedy]

Your right. John.

The point is Jesus knew Judas was a child of perdition, it was a lesson and a fulfillment of prophecy. We all deal with them, Jesus wanted to show us exactly what we were dealing with. Jesus washed this man's feet, and he got up and sold him out. People interested in going into the ministry should take note.

 

[ToBeLoved]

We are to repent and receive forgiveness, but we are also to abide in Him ... and He will abide in us.

John 15:6

If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

1 Corinthians 15:2

And by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Abiding in Christ and Him in you could also be fellowship and spiritual growth.

Please show how your verses specifically address salvation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Amen! In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him! (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12).

Great addition.

Unbelieving, unclean devil. I guess that proves Judas did not believe.