Can you lose your salvation?

[FreeGrace2]

Actually, this helps clarify your earlier response to my questions back on page 1. For clarification, your view includes the following:

1. Salvation is separate from faith.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. EPH 2:8 says we are saved by grace THROUGH faith.

2. Once a person believes and becomes saved, he can never lose his salvation.
3. Even if he stops believing, his salvation is still intact.
4. His lack of faith only affects his eternal rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ, not his eternal salvation.

These are Biblical and correct.

Does this summation provide an accurate description of your view?

Except #1.

On a side note, I checked my exhaustive Greek lexicon, and your point about "loss of salvation" in scripture is absolutely correct. No verse anywhere in the New Testament explicitly states that "salvation" (Greek verb sozo & noun sotaria) can be lost.

Which is why I don't believe that salvation can be lost.

otoh, there are a number of pasages that teach eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You stated:

Whilst a person can loose his faith, he cannot loose their salvation, because the Bible never says so.

This is a faulty premise at best, because it is by faith we are called to Christ.

I don't see how your statement supports your notion. And the Bible does NOT warn that anyone can or has lost their salvation. Further, there are a number of passages on eternal security, just the opposite of loss of salvation.

If one doesn't abide in Christ, then he is not chosen by Christ.

Bad news for your view. It is not found in Scripture. Jesus tells us the result of not abiding in Him; no fruit production. Nothing about loss of salvation. John 15:5 - “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." How does that sound like salvation is based on abiding?

Many verses say that we are saved by believing. None say that we are saved by abiding.

Scripture is very loud and clear about being watchful/vigilant in faith, for you know not in what hour you Lord comes.

This refers to the Second Coming of Christ and being prepared in order to receive rewards. Rev 22:12.

If that servant who was once a believer is found by the Lord when he comes to have backslide, then he is going to award his portion with the hypocrites and there shall be gnashing of teeth.

Nothing here about loss of salvation. Regret, yes. But nothing about loss of salvation.

Rom 8:38-39 is completely taken out of context. This is evident because you are implying these versus to be unconditional, when ignoring the condition clearly stated in the previous verse.

Romans 8:37-39
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

How could a person who looses his faith in Christ be a conqueror.

How are we conquerors? By our position in Him. He conquered death. And we are conquerors through Him. It doesn't say, as it seems you think, that we have done any conquering. Just like 1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. It is not we who do the overcoming; it is our faith that has overcome the world.

Versus 38-39 are following the conditional premis in the previous verse 37, that IF WE stay IN CHRIST we will conquer through him only. Salvation is not unconditional as you incorrectly stated. It is conditionally based on faith and staying the course in Christ until death.

This is just a made up story. There is no "if" conditional clause, as you have claimed. v.37-39 is a direct promise to all who have believed.

A person that looses faith in Christ, therefore looses Christ and if loosing Christ he/she looses their salvation and will not receive eternal life after they die, but will be award their portion with the wicked.

The problem with this claim is that Scripture doesn't back any of this up. There is nothing about losing Christ if we lose faith.

Since Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life (Jn 5:24), how can they "not receive" it after they die? Not possible.

And eternal life, defined as a gift by Paul in Rom 6:23, is said to be irrevocable in Rom 11:29. And this is irrefutable.

 

[JustHisKid]

Can you lose your Salvation?
Please provide scripture to prove your position.

God bless you

Who saves you? Can He lose you?

John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2,

There is one thing I was wondering about last night. Your original argument from your first posts back on page 1 is that salvation is a gift from God, and the gifts of God can never be lost because they are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

But the Bible tells us that faith is also a gift from God (Rom 12:6, I Cor 12:9). How can somebody lose his faith if it is also a gift from God? Shouldn't faith be just as irrevocable as salvation?

Ok, fair question. I believe Eph 2:8 treats "faith" as a noun, a genetive singular, not a verb. As such, it refers to the "body of what we believe to be true", or the Bible as a whole. I'm sure you'd agree that God's Word is a gift to mankind. So "losing one's faith" is figurative for no longer beleving what once was believed. it's not really "lost". It rather ceases to exist.

However, since we're dealing with Rom 11:29 and gifts of God, let's look at how Paul defined gift IN THAT LETTER. That's how context works. It's not legitimate to try to find some other mention of a gift in another letter or book and try to pin that definition on what Paul meant in Romans 11:29. The context for Rom 11:29 is how he previously defined gift in that letter. Not any other letter. There is no context for that. His readers had already read 1:11, 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and 6:23, where Paul specifically defined 'gift'. So that becomes the context for the NEXT TIME he mentions 'gift'.

Therefore, the 'gift of faith', found in another letter, is not contextually relevant to Rom 11:29. None of his original readers would have thought of any other use of 'gift' outside of Romans. In fact, how do we know that Ephesians was written before Romans? Regardless, the Roman church would not have thought of what Paul had written (or would write) to the Ephesians.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you want me to keep answering all your obfuscation? Please don't keep objecting. I know you are objecting to works salvation, but we are not preaching works salvation.

I believe that is exactly what your view is. So, in order to clarify on your part, please answer these questions, so there'll be no doubts:

1. Please distinquish between having salvation and having eternal life.
2. Please explain how one obtains salvation and obtains eternal life.

 

[Berean777]

Always glad to help clear things up. No one wants to be misunderstood.


I disagree. The Greek for for "save" is sozo, with the basic meaning of rescue, deliver, save. I've never seen "salvage" in any lexicon. What source includes 'salvage' for sozo?


The word "chosen" is also translated "elected". Not salvaged. In what way is "chosen" related to being salvaged? I don't see that in Scripture.


Matt 7:21-23 isn't about loss of eternal life, but that crowd never had it to begin with. We know this by how they appealed to Jesus for entrance into the kingdom: based on their works. No mention of faith.


I don't see an answer in the question. Being faithful unto death isn't for salvation, but for rewards. 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

This isn't about final gaining or loss of salvation, but reward or loss of reward for what we've done.


Salvation is a gift, not "awarded" to anyone. this verse is about being rewarded for keeping the faith (being faithful).


If this is true, then Jesus was wrong when He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life. Present tense refutes your idea.


It is clearly NOT any part of Christianity. One is saved WHEN they believe. It is by grace through faith. "Not of works, lest anyone should boast".


What verse or passage teaches such a thing??


Jesus already refuted such an idea.

I'd love to see any verse that supports this claim.


You've provided no verses that say what you've claimed. I've provided what Jesus said about HAVING eternal life.

Jn 3:16, "whosoever believes on Him, WILL NOT PERISH, but HAVE ETERNAL LIFE". Seems some don't believe this promise of Jesus.

So, salvation is not about what we do in life. But is about what we believe. That's why it's called "saving faith".

Jn 20:31 - but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

To be chosen is to be saved and if the faithful servant knew in what time his master came, he would not have suffered his body to die then to find out that his Lord has given him a portion with the wicked.

No one is saved until you die whilst keeping the faith. All versus stipulate a condition of believing in the Lord in order to be saved. If a person no longer believes in the Lord and has lost his/her faith, then that person is lost. When that person dies they will be given their portion with the wicked.

Many are called and justified by Christ where his righteousness is imputed onto their accounts, however very few are sanctified that is rehabilitated to conform to the beatitudes of Christ and be made in his person.

Jesus said come and follow me IF you want eternal life. Stay in me and you shall live. How does one who does not follow Christ and does not stay faithful in Christ be saved?

Every versus you have quoted with salvation has a condition tied to it and that is believing in Christ, following Christ and staying true to him by being in him.

You cannot be saved if you are not Christ's sheep. If you stray from God's shepherd, then you will be lost.

 

[fatherjimparker]

<<How so? It seems to me to be perfectly logical to say that one whom Christ "never" knew in the first place is an inappropriate example to use for someone who "lost" their salvation.>>

That is true for the people who are the subjects of one and only verse in which that phrase is used. (Mat 7:23)

It is a common error to take one "proof text" out of it's context and attempt to apply it to anything but the specific topic of that context. That's what you have done.

It is not logical at all. It's as logical as saying, "All crows are black. All crows are birds. Therefore all birds are black."

And it requires that you completely ignore or purposely misinterpret every other verse that refutes your false conclusion. (Which being the consistent act of every person I have ever met who holds the "once-saved-always-saved" false doctrine.)


Do you know what the word "if" means?

It introduces a conditional circumstance and alerts the reader that there are more than one possible outcome.

Consider:

COL1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

Thus a person who has been reconciled (past perfect)to God and who has faith will be presented to God holy, blameless and above reproach in God's sight.

And there is a condition introduced by the word "if." He must continue in his faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

The unspoken alternative, that he does not continue in his faith, will result in the alternate outcome. HE will not be presented to God holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight.

HEB 3:14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

Again, the situation of being saved is presented. (To share in Christ is to be saved.)
And, again, a condition is introduced by the word "if." The condition is that "WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST."

And that condition also implies an alternative outcome: we will no longer share in Christ. That means that it is possible for a person to be saved and, because he does not HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST, that salvation is forfeited.


<< Speaking of refusing to believe the Bible because of ones theology being contrary to the words of scripture: "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven." Matthew 23:9 >>

What do you call your male parent? Is he your "father"? Then, apparently you are "refusing to believe the Bible because of ones theology being contrary to the words of scripture." Jesus also said not to call anyone "teacher." Does your church have Sunday School "teachers"? If so, why do you call them teachers in direct violation of what you believe Jesus said?

Again, you have taken that out of context and come up with a conclusion that scripture does not support. To properly understand the passage you need to read ALL of chapter 23, not just one of your favorite verses you use to show your friends "what's wrong with them dang KATH-licks."

Who were the people who wanted to be called "father" and "teacher?"

Who is an example of a real teacher who said that he was a father to believers?

Paul is: (1Co 4:15) For though you might have ten thousand teachers in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Here Paul says that he is the "father" of the Corinthian believers; he "begat" them.
He also says that there are other fathers.

Paul calls Timothy his son (1Ti 1:2; 2Ti 1:2, 2:1,) and Onesimus his son whom he had begotten. (Phm 1:10)

Paul also tells us that Christ gave the Church teachers. (Eph 4:11) So, why would Jesus tell us not to be called "teacher" and then turn around and place "teachers" in the Church?

See? When you don't read the WHOLE bible, you make silly mistakes.

 

[Berean777]

Justification is a gift but salvation is closely related to sanctification. Sanctification is by works and these works are the works of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. As it is written we can do nothing without Christ and these works are of the Holy Ghost who transforms us into a new creation in Christ, being conformed to all of his beatitudes and made into his personage.

Salvation is by sanctification and that is by the works of the Holy Ghost who purges our sins, by transforming us into his Holy vessels, where we become the Holy Temple of God.

Zechariah 13:9
This third (few) I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"

Sanctification is conditionally based on faith in Christ and salvation is by staying the course until death. If we say that because we are justified in Christ that we are saved, then read James, this is not the case for faith without works is dead (James 2:17). To be faithful, we must be in Christ, take up our crosses and to follow him to where ever the Holy Ghost takes us in our walk with God in our personal purification (sanctification). We are required to finish our race whist keeping the faith once given to the saints, then are we saved and not before.

 

[Marvin Knox]

<<How so? It seems to me to be perfectly logical to say that one whom Christ "never" knew in the first place is an inappropriate example to use for someone who "lost" their salvation.>>

That is true for the people who are the subjects of one and only verse in which that phrase is used. (Mat 7:23)

It is a common error to take one "proof text" out of it's context and attempt to apply it to anything but the specific topic of that context. That's what you have done.

It is not logical at all. It's as logical as saying, "All crows are black. All crows are birds. Therefore all birds are black."

Actually you are wrong in this. Others were taking the verse out of context and attempting to use it as a proof text for loss of salvation. I have been the one who has steadfastly pointed out that they are doing what they are doing. What they are doing is taking a verse that cannot logically apply to loss of salvation and attempting to use it for that purpose.

I have been observing FreeGrace2's arguments with others here and have noticed that no one is swayed at all by him. I may or may not be able to add to his arguments. But I refuse to be drawn aside into arguments about other verses when the people here will not simply admit that this verse used early on in the discussion was used incorrectly.

Rather than simply admit that they have been wrong in this one case - they have constantly attempted to simply change the subject to other verses. That shows me a lack of good faith in their reason for discussion.

The Lord told us not to cast our pearls before swine. That is exactly what I would be doing if I went for their head fakes and changed to arguing other verses without acknowledgment that this one was wrongly being used.

I would be arguing with people who have shown themselves dishonest in their dealings when it comes to fruitful discussion of scripture.

And it requires that you completely ignore or purposely misinterpret every other verse that refutes your false conclusion. (Which being the consistent act of every person I have ever met who holds the "once-saved-always-saved" false doctrine.)

Do you know what the word "if" means?

It introduces a conditional circumstance and alerts the reader that there are more than one possible outcome.

Consider:

COL1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

Thus a person who has been reconciled (past perfect)to God and who has faith will be presented to God holy, blameless and above reproach in God's sight.

And there is a condition introduced by the word "if." He must continue in his faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

The unspoken alternative, that he does not continue in his faith, will result in the alternate outcome. HE will not be presented to God holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight.

HEB 3:14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

Again, the situation of being saved is presented. (To share in Christ is to be saved.)
And, again, a condition is introduced by the word "if." The condition is that "WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST."

And that condition also implies an alternative outcome: we will no longer share in Christ. That means that it is possible for a person to be saved and, because he does not HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST, that salvation is forfeited.

Here you show yourself to be of the exact same nature as the others with whom I began this discussion.

You refuse to even acknowledge that the verse in Matt. 7 was taken out of context while trying to prove that eternal security is a false doctrine.

I may or may not be able to argue successfully against the arguments you are switching to. But the fact is that I will not even try because you - like the others here - have shown yourself to be unwilling to discuss in good faith.

<< Speaking of refusing to believe the Bible because of ones theology being contrary to the words of scripture: "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven." Matthew 23:9 >>

What do you call your male parent? Is he your "father"? Then, apparently you are "refusing to believe the Bible because of ones theology being contrary to the words of scripture." Jesus also said not to call anyone "teacher." Does your church have Sunday School "teachers"? If so, why do you call them teachers in direct violation of what you believe Jesus said?

Again, you have taken that out of context and come up with a conclusion that scripture does not support. To properly understand the passage you need to read ALL of chapter 23, not just one of your favorite verses you use to show your friends "what's wrong with them dang KATH-licks."

Who were the people who wanted to be called "father" and "teacher?"

Who is an example of a real teacher who said that he was a father to believers?

Paul is: (1Co 4:15) For though you might have ten thousand teachers in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Here Paul says that he is the "father" of the Corinthian believers; he "begat" them.
He also says that there are other fathers.

Paul calls Timothy his son (1Ti 1:2; 2Ti 1:2, 2:1,) and Onesimus his son whom he had begotten. (Phm 1:10)

Paul also tells us that Christ gave the Church teachers. (Eph 4:11) So, why would Jesus tell us not to be called "teacher" and then turn around and place "teachers" in the Church?

See? When you don't read the WHOLE bible, you make silly mistakes.

The fact is that I do read the whole bible.

I am perfectly wiling to acknowledge that there are instances where it is appropriate to call people father.

Literal fathers are, of course, one.

Referring to the one who lead you to the Lord and teaches you about the Lord in discipleship could also be called father without going against what Christ obviously meant to warn against.

An example of the type of calling a man father that Christ was likely talking about is this quote from a well known Catholic theologian in his explaining why priests are called father.

"Catholics call their priests "Father" because in all matters pertaining to Christ's holy faith they perform the duties of a father, representing God. The priest is the agent of the Christian's supernatural birth and sustenance in the world."

I am more familiar with Catholic traditions than likely most protestants and this typified some of the reasons we protestants disagree so strongly with them.

In our opinions - Catholic priests do not represent God and do not perform duties that only can be performed by God Himself.

Catholic priests are not the agents of our supernatural birth. God alone is the agent of that supernatural birth.

When it comes to being the agent of "supernatural sustenance" they are equally falsely representing God's invisible on going works. They do not have the power to administer the finished work of Christ to us in the ongoing changing and serving of the eucharist or any other such mumbo jumbo.

Obviously you disagree with me and that will be fine.

But know that it is this Catholic misrepresentation of their priests as representatives of God and Christ by calling them "father" that is objected to and not the other ways someone might rightly call another father.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I believe that is exactly what your view is. So, in order to clarify on your part, please answer these questions, so there'll be no doubts:

1. Please distinquish between having salvation and having eternal life.
2. Please explain how one obtains salvation and obtains eternal life.

Salvation, justification is what happens when we believe and the Holy Spirit is given and He takes our spirit to be with Christ in high places. Believing is demonstrated by requesting baptism, hearing of our confession of error in following earthly treasure and agreeing with God that heavenly treasure is the real treasure. It's not a work because God bound Satan up so that we could freely leave Egypt, and destroyed his power under the waters of baptism.


Salvation, sanctification is what happens when we believe and the Holy Spirit is given and He cleanses us from unrighteousness. Sanctification is a result of faithfulness, which also results in being in grace, being in God's favor. Being in God's favor is sufficient, and being weak is good, because then God's power is revealed, which is what happens when we have eternal life.


Eternal life is the life lived in Christ, possible because we are in God's favor, because we have been faithful, obedient, by believing, by continuing in faith towards sanctification.


Believing is demonstrated by obeying Jesus's command to wash each other's feet, confession and absolution. We confess that the deeds of our body result in earthly profit not heavenly treasure, in death and not in life. In confessing, God is righteous and just to forgive and the blood of his Son cleanses us from those deeds of the body.


It's not a work because God said HE would fight for us, we only had to be still. Joshua destroyed Jericho, never to rise again, without lifting a sword. His trumpet sounds are analogous to our confession. So too will we enter into rest in Christ without using our own effort to destroy the deeds of the body, to sanctify our body, which the judaisers tried to do. They were justified by believing but tried to be sanctified by works.


Hope this answer helps to explain why, after justification, faith towards sanctification is required to enter rest, eternal life. Let's not be like Israel who would not face the Canaanites, the people of Jericho, the analogy of the enemy in our life, the deeds of the body, the obstacle to eternal life, and did not enter rest.

 

[FreeGrace2]

To be chosen is to be saved and if the faithful servant knew in what time his master came, he would not have suffered his body to die then to find out that his Lord has given him a portion with the wicked.

Where does one read in Scripture that "to be chosen is to be saved"? The Biblical doctrine of election is about privilege and service, not salvation.

Jesus was the Chosen One. Did he get saved? No The people of Israel were chosen. Were all of them saved? No Angels are chosen, per 1 Tim 5:21 and the Bible makes no mention of whether angels have been "saved" or not.

[/QUOET]No one is saved until you die whilst keeping the faith.[/QUOTE]
Jesus refutes that in John 5:24, where He noted that those who believe HAVE eternal life. Present tense. How can one be given eternal life and yet not be saved? That makes no sense.

All versus stipulate a condition of believing in the Lord in order to be saved.[/QUOE]
This is correct,

If a person no longer believes in the Lord and has lost his/her faith, then that person is lost.

There are NO verses that teach this. Also, this means that we are saved or maintained by our faith. That is incorrect. We are kept by God Himself, as Jesus clearly stated in John 10:28,29.

Jesus said come and follow me IF you want eternal life.

I would like to introduce you to some statements made by Jesus Himself:
Jn 3:15 - so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 - “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Jn 5:24 - 4“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Jn 6:40 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
Jn 6:47 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Every versus you have quoted with salvation has a condition tied to it and that is believing in Christ, following Christ and staying true to him by being in him.

This is a conflation of different verses. The condition for getting saved is faith in Christ. But there are NO verses that state that if one stops believing, they stop being saved. There are NO verses!

Further, the Bible guarantees our salvation by the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, who seals each believer for the day of redemption.

Jesus guarantees our salvation by noting that no one (meaning no person, including yourself) can remove a believer from the Father's hand. why? Because no one is stronger than God. It is God holding us, not the other way around, as your view insinuates.

While a believer can leave the faith, he is still being held by the Father.

There are no verses that support your claims.

You cannot be saved if you are not Christ's sheep. If you stray from God's shepherd, then you will be lost.

If there are any verses that state that a sheep can become a "not a sheep", or a sheep can become a goat, then I will consider your view. Otherwise, there is no reason to.

So far, none of your claims has been supported by any Scripture. I only consider claims that are actually backed up with Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Salvation, justification is what happens when we believe and the Holy Spirit is given and He takes our spirit to be with Christ in high places. Believing is demonstrated by requesting baptism, hearing of our confession of error in following earthly treasure and agreeing with God that heavenly treasure is the real treasure. It's not a work because God bound Satan up so that we could freely leave Egypt, and destroyed his power under the waters of baptism.


Salvation, sanctification is what happens when we believe and the Holy Spirit is given and He cleanses us from unrighteousness. Sanctification is a result of faithfulness, which also results in being in grace, being in God's favor. Being in God's favor is sufficient, and being weak is good, because then God's power is revealed, which is what happens when we have eternal life.


Eternal life is the life lived in Christ, possible because we are in God's favor, because we have been faithful, obedient, by believing, by continuing in faith towards sanctification.


Believing is demonstrated by obeying Jesus's command to wash each other's feet, confession and absolution. We confess that the deeds of our body result in earthly profit not heavenly treasure, in death and not in life. In confessing, God is righteous and just to forgive and the blood of his Son cleanses us from those deeds of the body.


It's not a work because God said HE would fight for us, we only had to be still. Joshua destroyed Jericho, never to rise again, without lifting a sword. His trumpet sounds are analogous to our confession. So too will we enter into rest in Christ without using our own effort to destroy the deeds of the body, to sanctify our body, which the judaisers tried to do. They were justified by believing but tried to be sanctified by works.


Hope this answer helps to explain why, after justification, faith towards sanctification is required to enter rest, eternal life. Let's not be like Israel who would not face the Canaanites, the people of Jericho, the analogy of the enemy in our life, the deeds of the body, the obstacle to eternal life, and did not enter rest.

Thanks for your answer. Now I am more certain that your view is rather confused in a lot of areas. You said this: "Eternal life is the life lived in Christ,". Where do you get this? Eternal life is God's very life. He is eternal. He alone has the authority and right to give His life to others. On His terms. His term is to believe in His Son for it. Jn 6:40.

Being saved and having eternal life are synonymous. One who has eternal life IS saved. One who is saved HAS eternal life. They cannot be separated.

Sanctification has two concepts. One is progressive: our lives on this earth after we believe. We are commanded to grow up spiritually. That is progressive, just like physically growing up. There is also ultimate sanctification, which we will experience when we pass from this life to eternity.

btw, the word 'sanctification' basically means "set apart for holiness". All believers have been chosen for that, per Eph 1:4 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Thanks for your answer. Now I am more certain that your view is rather confused in a lot of areas. You said this: "Eternal life is the life lived in Christ,". Where do you get this? Eternal life is God's very life. He is eternal. He alone has the authority and right to give His life to others. On His terms. His term is to believe in His Son for it. Jn 6:40.

Being saved and having eternal life are synonymous. One who has eternal life IS saved. One who is saved HAS eternal life. They cannot be separated.

Sanctification has two concepts. One is progressive: our lives on this earth after we believe. We are commanded to grow up spiritually. That is progressive, just like physically growing up. There is also ultimate sanctification, which we will experience when we pass from this life to eternity.

btw, the word 'sanctification' basically means "set apart for holiness". All believers have been chosen for that, per Eph 1:4 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

Right, just blow the answer off, dismiss it with, "It ain't so!"


You are committing the error of anachronism. Belief in the ANE is not the belief in an ideology or dependence on a person of the 21st century. It is obedience. I have already given you evidence that the phrase was used in that sense in secular and biblical literature available in that time and place.


John 3:14As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.


Eternal life is only available IN Christ. You can only be in Christ if you are in God's grace. If you are out of grace, in His bad books, because Christ's words are not in you, you called Him Lord, but did not get involved in footwashing, then you cannot be IN Christ. If you are in Christ, ask anything you wish and it will be done. This then is eternal life. To be IN Him. To know Him as Joseph knew Mary.


John 17:3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only trueGod, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.


John 17:22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.


Romans 8:10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.


John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

.John 10:38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

BTW, what evidence do you have that you have passed into eternal life, have eternal life?

 

[fatherjimparker]

<<Actually you are wrong in this.>>

No. I got it right. You are using the verse to say something it doesn't say.

<< Others were taking the verse out of context and attempting to use it as a proof text for loss of salvation. >>

That's nice. I wasn't.

<< I have been the one who has steadfastly pointed out that they are doing what they are doing. What they are doing is taking a verse that cannot logically apply to loss of salvation and attempting to use it for that purpose.>>

Great! I wasn't doing that.

<< I have been observing FreeGrace2's arguments with others here and have noticed that no one is swayed at all by him. I may or may not be able to add to his arguments. But I refuse to be drawn aside into arguments about other verses when the people here will not simply admit that this verse used early on in the discussion was used incorrectly.>>

That's someone else's argument, not mine, and has nothing to do with what I posted concerning the false notion that one cannot lose their salvation.

<< Rather than simply admit that they have been wrong in this one case - they have constantly attempted to simply change the subject to other verses. That shows me a lack of good faith in their reason for discussion.>>

And the "once-saved-always-saved" crowd consistently either refuses to even consider any verses that specifically state salvation can be lost or attempts to invent meanings for those passages which have no connection to the words or context of the passage.

<< The Lord told us not to cast our pearls before swine. That is exactly what I would be doing if I went for their head fakes and changed to arguing other verses without acknowledgment that this one was wrongly being used.>>

Ah! So anyone who disagrees with you is a pig. That certainly encourages open and frank discussion!

<< I would be arguing with people who have shown themselves dishonest in their dealings when it comes to fruitful discussion of scripture.>>

Ok, people who don't agree with you are not only pigs but also liars. Got it.

<< Here you show yourself to be of the exact same nature as the others with whom I began this discussion. >>

Name calling isn't a very convincing argument.

<< You refuse to even acknowledge that the verse in Matt. 7 was taken out of context while trying to prove that eternal security is a false doctrine. >>

That's incorrect. I said that Mat 7:23 WAS taken out of context.

<< I may or may not be able to argue successfully against the arguments you are switching to.>>

So far you have avoided even considering what the rest of scripture says.

<< But the fact is that I will not even try because you - like the others here - have shown yourself to be unwilling to discuss in good faith.>>

Again with the ad hominem attacks. Is this how you usually conduct yourself when you are unable to refute an opposing view? You just revert to name calling like some 8-year-old kid on a playground?

<<The fact is that I do read the whole bible.>>

And you ignore anything you don't like.

<< I am perfectly wiling to acknowledge that there are instances where it is appropriate to call people father. >>

I'm sure the Almighty is greatly relieved and delighted to have your support.

<< Literal fathers are, of course, one.>>

Nice back-peddling. Does your inerrant and infallible translation of the sola scriptura say that or does it say, like mine does, "Call NO man "father."?

<< Referring to the one who lead you to the Lord and teaches you about the Lord in discipleship could also be called father without going against what Christ obviously meant to warn against.>>

Christ was saying not to imitate the hypocrites who demand the respect appropriate to one who has led others to the Lord and then nurtured them toward maturity in the Lord but who have not done the work to deserve the respect. It is the worker who deserves respect for his good work, not someone who holds a position because of wealth or personal connections but who does not have a love for those of whom he want's to be called "father."

<<An example of the type of calling a man father that Christ was likely talking about is this quote from a well known Catholic theologian in his explaining why priests are called father.

"Catholics call their priests "Father" because in all matters pertaining to Christ's holy faith they perform the duties of a father, representing God. The priest is the agent of the Christian's supernatural birth and sustenance in the world.">>

That quote describes precisely what a true "father" should be and that is the vocation of a priest or minister or whatever other name you might use to avoid actually saying the word "father."

By the way, when you quote someone, it is appropriate to name the person you are quoting and where that quote may be found.

<< I am more familiar with Catholic traditions than likely most protestants and this typified some of the reasons we protestants disagree so strongly with them. >>

Then you are not so very familiar with "Catholic traditions" as you imagine. You are apparently familiar with the standard talking points of anti-Catholic, religious bigots which provide false arguments on a bumper-sticker intellectual level.

It is quite apparent that what you think you know is the distortions of Catholic tradition which unwary Protestants are fed by anti-Chtist, ear-tickling, preachers who wish to keep the kingdom of God divided by sustaining hatred of Christians for other Christians so that it will not stand against the onslaught of enemy of our souls. Nice work! That's one reason America is going down the toilet. Some Protestant "believers" are more focused on "what's wrong with them dang KAAATH-licks" then on Jesus' command to love one another.

<< In our opinions - Catholic priests do not represent God and do not perform duties that only can be performed by God Himself.>>

That quote did not suggest that priests performed "duties that only can be performed by God Himself."

<< Catholic priests are not the agents of our supernatural birth. God alone is the agent of that supernatural birth. >>

They why do Catholic-basher Protestants bother to preach the Gospel? That would be acting as an "agent" of God.

Maybe your copy of the infallible, inspired, sola scripture is missing the verse that tells us ALL believers are ambassadors of Christ. (2Co 5:20) And and ambassador is, in fact, an agent of the King.

<< When it comes to being the agent of "supernatural sustenance" they are equally falsely representing God's invisible on going works. They do not have the power to administer the finished work of Christ to us in the ongoing changing and serving of the eucharist or any other such mumbo jumbo. >>

I thought you said you were familiar with Catholic traditions. Obviously you are mistaken. What you are familiar with if the standard, ignorant, anti-Catholic, religious bigotry that some Protestants apparently find satisfies their need to have someone to hate. (Especially since Jews and Blacks are no longer considered politically correct targets of such mindless hatred.)

<< Obviously you disagree with me and that will be fine. >>

Oh! Will it really be fine? Oh, Thankyouthankyouthankyou!!!! And be still my heart!

<< But know that it is this Catholic misrepresentation of their priests as representatives of God and Christ by calling them "father" that is objected to and not the other ways someone might rightly call another father. >>

Yes, it is objected to by Catholic-bashing, ignorant, religious bigots possibly because of their subconscious need to rationalize their rebellion against and departure from the Church which Jesus personally established in order to reform HIS Church into something more comfortable for them and so they could propagate another Gospel that doesn't require any work on the part of the believer. Just get elected and it's a done deal! And such a deal it is!

You should steer clear of such folk. They will teach you to hate your neighbor by calling them pigs and liars and cause you to lose your salvation by refusing to obey Jesus' command to love your neighbor.

Have a wonderful day! God loves you!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Right, just blow the answer off, dismiss it with, "It ain't so!"

I'm sorry if the truth hurts. But truth is truth. I've "blown off" nothing.

You are committing the error of anachronism. Belief in the ANE is not the belief in an ideology or dependence on a person of the 21st century. It is obedience. I have already given you evidence that the phrase was used in that sense in secular and biblical literature available in that time and place.

OK, get me up to speed on what ANE means. Sorry. However, the Bible says frequently in the NT that salvation and eternal life is based on believing (placing your trust in) Jesus Christ. That IS dependence on a person.

John 3:14As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

Right.

Eternal life is only available IN Christ.

Right.

You can only be in Christ if you are in God's grace

This isn't biblical. Those who believe in Christ are sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit.
Eph 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

If you are out of grace, in His bad books, because Christ's words are not in you, you called Him Lord, but did not get involved in footwashing, then you cannot be IN Christ. If you are in Christ, ask anything you wish and it will be done. This then is eternal life. To be IN Him.

Where is any of this supported by Scripture?

To know Him as Joseph knew Mary.

Do you really understand what you're saying? Joseph knew Mary sexually. What in the world is your point?

John 17:3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only trueGod, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This doesn't relate to Joseph knowing Mary. Nor any other point you've made.

John 17:22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

How does any of this support your claims?

Romans 8:10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

How does one become "righteous"? Through faith in Christ.

Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Rom 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith


Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),

Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Phil 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

BTW, what evidence do you have that you have passed into eternal life, have eternal life?

Glad you asked. The Bible tells me that I have eternal life in these verses.

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The ONLY reason anyone has eternal life is because they have placed their full trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for it.

Those who think they can work for it do NOT have it. Jesus said as much here: You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me Jn 5:39

Those who do not have eternal life are not in the "book of life" and at the Great White Throne judgment in Rom 20:11-15 will be cast into the lake of fire, also called the second death, for eternity.

It would be wise indeed to know what the Scriptures say about whether one has eternal life or not. Our eternity depends on it.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I see you completely rewrote your "enjoy your mumbo jumbo" reply in post number 154. That makes it difficult to respond.

I'll respond anyway.

Your first contact with me in this forum was to accuse me of childish babble and brand me as a person who refused to believe the scriptures because my theology is contrary to those scriptures.

That is the "circular logic" (actually, "illogic") that is consistently employed by people who refuse to believe the words on the pages of the Bible because their theology is contrary to those words.
It is childish babble.

I gave you an example of what you do that shows you to be that person and not me IMO.

The scriptures tell us that we have but one Father and we are not to set others up in the position that only rightfully belongs to God.

Your theology sets up an entire system of “fathers” ranging from the lowliest parish priest to the “Holy Father” in Rome. They, according to Catholic doctrine, stand in the place of God on earth. They “administer” activities rightfully only belonging to God according to scripture.

You set up the “Holy Father” as the “Vicar” of Christ. “Vicar"—in the broadest sense means someone who is authorized to act as a substitute for a superior. That superior is God. The position of vicar in this age only belongs to the Holy Spirit of God.

Contrary to the scriptures which declare that the Lord was crucified once for all – you set up an ordination that allows certain people to crucify Him daily in the blasphemy of the Mass.

The scriptures tell us that we are seated even now with Christ in the Heavenlies. You set up a system whereby people must burn in purgatory for perhaps thousands of years of purification to reach that goal.

The scriptures tell us that we are saved by simple faith on a personal level with God and without association with any earthy organization. Your “church” pronounces a curse on anyone preaching that simple gospel of faith.

The scriptures declare that there is only one mediator between God and man. You set up a system where Mary the human mother of our Lord is declared “mediatrix.”

I’ll let anyone who cares to understand truth explore these things on their own. We now (no thanks to Catholicism) have the scriptures in our own language.

Here is an example of my “mumbo jumbo” and “childish babble.”

Jesus Christ died once for all according to the scriptures.

Personally trust in that fact “one on one” with God and you will be saved eternally and never come again into condemnation.

If you receive the Holy Spirit of God – He is the only teacher or councilor you will ever need. You will be sanctified in this life as you work out your salvation with fear and trembling knowing that it is He who is working in you for His own glory.

Having begun this good work in you – He will complete it – period – end of discussion concerning loss of salvation.

If that’s childish babble – I’m guilty as charged.

If I am a Catholic "basher" it is only because curses pronounced on me by that organization along with thousands of murders of my brothers and sisters over the years tends to bring out the worst in me.

By the way - Christ used the metaphor of pearls before swine. To say that I called you a pig when I used His metaphor to explain why I would not respond to those who had shown themselves unwilling to admit error is not accurate. I did not do that.

And I did not introduce Matt. 7. Others did that. I was refuting their use of it to prove loss of salvation when you injected yourself into the discussion referring specifically to my objection to their so doing. You called my reasoning "circular" and chided me for it - calling it childish babble.

You then went on to list other "proofs" of loss of salvation just as they had done. That is why I lumped you in with them.

I have reread your posts to me. They seem pretty clear. But if I had you wrong in that - I apologize. Misunderstandings like that are a big problem on these threads.

Long after that original inflammatory post to me - you said this to me.

No. I got it right. You are using the verse to say something it doesn't say.

Perhaps if you tell me how I used Matt. 7:23 to say something it doesn't say - it will clear things up for me. That is what I was saying about the others way of using it when you called my accusations childish babble and circular reasoning.

 

[fatherjimparker]

<< I see you completely rewrote your "enjoy your mumbo jumbo" reply in post number 154. That makes it difficult to respond.

I'll respond anyway.>>

OH! Goody, goody, gumdrops!. I can hardly wait!

<< Your first contact with me in this forum was to accuse me of childish babble and brand me as a person who refused to believe the scriptures because my theology is contrary to those scriptures. >>

That must have been when you sere childishly babbling and using circular logic.

<< I gave you an example of what you do that shows you to be that person and not me IMO. >>

Well, everybody has an opinion. Some of them are actually worth reading. (yawn)

<< The scriptures tell us that we have but one Father and we are not to set others up in the position that only rightfully belongs to God.>>

Totally agree. And nobody does that when they call their male parent "father" or when a Catholic priest is addressed as "father."

<< Your theology sets up an entire system of “fathers” ranging from the lowliest parish priest to the “Holy Father” in Rome. They, according to Catholic doctrine, stand in the place of God on earth. They “administer” activities rightfully only belonging to God according to scripture. >>

You're babbling again.
1. I'm not a Roman Catholic and you don't have a grasp of my theology.
2. They don't "stand in the place of God" any differently than does any Protestant pastor or than you do when you pray for someone.
3. You'll have to identify exactly what "activities" you imagine they "minister" which "rightfully belong only to God." (See? When you don't get around to saying what you're talking about, that's "babbling.")

<< You set up the “Holy Father” as the “Vicar” of Christ. “Vicar"—in the broadest sense means someone who is authorized to act as a substitute or agent for a superior. That superior is God. The position of vicar in this age only belongs to the Holy Spirit of God. >>

So you're not a member of the holy priesthood of believers or an ambassador of Christ? I had just assumed you were a Christian.

<< Contrary to the scriptures which declare that the Lord was crucified once for all – you set up an ordination that allows certain people to crucify Him daily in the blasphemy of the Mass. >>

Ok, so you have absolutely no idea what the Eucharist is about but are delighted to babble your memorized bumper-sticker hate memes from your copy of The KAATH-lick-Basher's Religious Bigotry Handbook of Really Dumb Things to Say.

<< The scriptures tell us that we are seated even now with Christ in the Heavenlies. You set up a system whereby people must burn in purgatory for perhaps thousands of years of purification to reach that goal. >>

No I don't. That's Roman thing. I believe it is based on 1 Cor 3.

<< The scriptures tell us that we are saved by simple faith on a personal level with God and without association with any earthy organization. >>

Ah, another opinion! The Church is not an "earthly organization"; it is the presence of the Kingdom of God on earth. A Kingdom is an organization. There aren't any "lone ranger" Christians.

Can you cite a verse that says something about that "faith on a personal level"?

<< Your “church” pronounces a curse on anyone preaching that simple gospel of faith. >>

Who told you that? It's 100% baloney. You really shouldn't repeat lies no matter how much joy it gives you to do so.

<< The scriptures declare that there is only one mediator between God and man. You set up a system where Mary the human mother of our Lord is declared “mediatrix.” >>

So you should never ask anyone to pray for you and you should never pray for anyone who asks for prayer. If you did, you'd be a "mediatrix."

<< I’ll let anyone who cares to understand truth explore these things on their own. >>

Great! Any grammar-school dropout with an abridged King James Bible, written in Jacobean English, (and he isn't even fluent in modern English) can come up with his own theology. Wonderful! Maybe that's why there are tens of thousands of "Protestant" sects, denominations, and schisms all reading from the same inspired, inerrant, Sola Scriptura and all coming up with different conclusions and, according to you, they're all correct!

<< We now (no thanks to Catholicism) have the scriptures in our own language.>>

If you don't like what the RCC did then don't read that Bible thingy. The KJV is based on the work of the ROMAN CATHOLIC scholar, Erasmus.

<< Here is an example of my “mumbo jumbo” and “childish babble.”>>

Jesus Christ died once for all according to the scriptures.

That's what it says.

<< Personally trust in that fact “one on one” with God and you will be saved eternally and never come again into condemnation.>>

Here's some of the "Sola Scripture" you insist on ignoring in order to imagine you know what you're talking about.

COL1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

2PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”


<< If you receive the Holy Spirit of God – He is the only teacher or councilor you will ever need. >>

Please! That's what every crackpot and ignoramus spouts whenever he's embarrassed by his abject ignorance. "The Holy Ghost TOLD me!"

If all we need for a teacher is the Holy Ghost then why do the denominations establish Bible Colleges and Seminaries to train their ministers? Why don't they just say, "Ask the Holy Spirit whenever you have a question."? Why would anyone go through all that work to be trained is all that is needed is the Holy Spirit?

<< Having begun this good work in you – He will complete it – period – end of discussion concerning loss of salvation.>>

Ok. End of discussion. We'll just ignore every verse of God's word that refutes your personal opinion. We'll get a black Sharpie and black out every one of the very many verses that refute your nonsense and pretend that the apostles never wrote them FOR YOUR INFORMATION.

<< If that’s childish babble – I’m guilty as charged. >>

There you are!.

<< If I am a Catholic "basher" it is only because curses pronounced on me by that organization along with thousands of murders of my brothers and sisters over the years tends to bring out the worst in me. >>

Ooooh! Poor BABY! Does that include the persecution and murder of everyone who was not a Puritan by Oliver Cromwell? Does that include 400 years of virtual enslavement of the Irish by those good Church of England Christians? Does it include the several million Germans killed in the wars of the Protest Reformation that wen on for over a century while Protest Princes used religion as an excuse to go to war against their political enemies and to gain political power? Does that include the Protestant teachers that said Blacks could not be members of their lily white churches just like it says "right the in the BUY-bull"? How about those good Protestant Christians who gave us the Slave trade, the Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee, and the KKK?

<< By the way - Christ used the metaphor of pearls before swine. To say that I called you a pig when I used His metaphor to explain why I would not respond to those who had shown themselves unwilling to admit error is not accurate. I did not do that. >>

Nice back-peddle. Calling them swine and dishonest is exactly what you did to anyone who did not agree with your personal opinion.

<< You then went on to list other "proofs" of loss of salvation just as they had done. That is why I lumped you in with them. >>

Yes you lumped me in with all the people you call lying swine because they quote the SCRIPTURES to you which contradict your personal opinion.

 

[fatherjimparker]

<< I see you completely rewrote your "enjoy your mumbo jumbo" reply in post number 154. That makes it difficult to respond.

I'll respond anyway.>>

OH! Goody, goody, gumdrops!. I can hardly wait!

<< Your first contact with me in this forum was to accuse me of childish babble and brand me as a person who refused to believe the scriptures because my theology is contrary to those scriptures. >>

That must have been when you sere childishly babbling and using circular logic.

<< I gave you an example of what you do that shows you to be that person and not me IMO. >>

Well, everybody has an opinion. Some of them are actually worth reading. (yawn)

<< The scriptures tell us that we have but one Father and we are not to set others up in the position that only rightfully belongs to God.>>

Totally agree. And nobody does that when they call their male parent "father" or when a Catholic priest is addressed as "father."

<< Your theology sets up an entire system of “fathers” ranging from the lowliest parish priest to the “Holy Father” in Rome. They, according to Catholic doctrine, stand in the place of God on earth. They “administer” activities rightfully only belonging to God according to scripture. >>

You're babbling again.
1. I'm not a Roman Catholic and you don't have a grasp of my theology.
2. They don't "stand in the place of God" any differently than does any Protestant pastor or than you do when you pray for someone.
3. You'll have to identify exactly what "activities" you imagine they "minister" which "rightfully belong only to God." (See? When you don't get around to saying what you're talking about, that's "babbling.")

<< You set up the “Holy Father” as the “Vicar” of Christ. “Vicar"—in the broadest sense means someone who is authorized to act as a substitute or agent for a superior. That superior is God. The position of vicar in this age only belongs to the Holy Spirit of God. >>

So you're not a member of the holy priesthood of believers or an ambassador of Christ? I had just assumed you were a Christian.

<< Contrary to the scriptures which declare that the Lord was crucified once for all – you set up an ordination that allows certain people to crucify Him daily in the blasphemy of the Mass. >>

Ok, so you have absolutely no idea what the Eucharist is about but are delighted to babble your memorized bumper-sticker hate memes from your copy of The KAATH-lick-Basher's Religious Bigotry Handbook of Really Dumb Things to Say.

<< The scriptures tell us that we are seated even now with Christ in the Heavenlies. You set up a system whereby people must burn in purgatory for perhaps thousands of years of purification to reach that goal. >>

No I don't. That's Roman thing. I believe it is based on 1 Cor 3.

<< The scriptures tell us that we are saved by simple faith on a personal level with God and without association with any earthy organization. >>

Ah, another opinion! The Church is not an "earthly organization"; it is the presence of the Kingdom of God on earth. A Kingdom is an organization. There aren't any "lone ranger" Christians.

Can you cite a verse that says something about that "faith on a personal level"?

<< Your “church” pronounces a curse on anyone preaching that simple gospel of faith. >>

Who told you that? It's 100% baloney. You really shouldn't repeat lies no matter how much joy it gives you to do so.

<< The scriptures declare that there is only one mediator between God and man. You set up a system where Mary the human mother of our Lord is declared “mediatrix.” >>

So you should never ask anyone to pray for you and you should never pray for anyone who asks for prayer. If you did, you'd be a "mediatrix."

<< I’ll let anyone who cares to understand truth explore these things on their own. >>

Great! Any grammar-school dropout with an abridged King James Bible, written in Jacobean English, (and he isn't even fluent in modern English) can come up with his own theology. Wonderful! Maybe that's why there are tens of thousands of "Protestant" sects, denominations, and schisms all reading from the same inspired, inerrant, Sola Scriptura and all coming up with different conclusions and, according to you, they're all correct!

<< We now (no thanks to Catholicism) have the scriptures in our own language.>>

If you don't like what the RCC did then don't read that Bible thingy. The KJV is based on the work of the ROMAN CATHOLIC scholar, Erasmus.

<< Here is an example of my “mumbo jumbo” and “childish babble.”>>

Jesus Christ died once for all according to the scriptures.

That's what it says.

<< Personally trust in that fact “one on one” with God and you will be saved eternally and never come again into condemnation.>>

Here's some of the "Sola Scripture" you insist on ignoring in order to imagine you know what you're talking about.

COL1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

2PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”


<< If you receive the Holy Spirit of God – He is the only teacher or councilor you will ever need. >>

Please! That's what every crackpot and ignoramus spouts whenever he's embarrassed by his abject ignorance. "The Holy Ghost TOLD me!"

If all we need for a teacher is the Holy Ghost then why do the denominations establish Bible Colleges and Seminaries to train their ministers? Why don't they just say, "Ask the Holy Spirit whenever you have a question."? Why would anyone go through all that work to be trained is all that is needed is the Holy Spirit?

<< Having begun this good work in you – He will complete it – period – end of discussion concerning loss of salvation.>>

Ok. End of discussion. We'll just ignore every verse of God's word that refutes your personal opinion. We'll get a black Sharpie and black out every one of the very many verses that refute your nonsense and pretend that the apostles never wrote them FOR YOUR INFORMATION.

<< If that’s childish babble – I’m guilty as charged. >>

There you are!.

<< If I am a Catholic "basher" it is only because curses pronounced on me by that organization along with thousands of murders of my brothers and sisters over the years tends to bring out the worst in me. >>

Ooooh! Poor BABY! Does that include the persecution and murder of everyone who was not a Puritan by Oliver Cromwell? Does that include 400 years of virtual enslavement of the Irish by those good Church of England Protestants? Does it include the several million Germans killed in the wars of the Protest Reformation that went on for over a century while Protest Princes, barons and kings used religion as an excuse to go to war against their political enemies in order to gain land and political power? Does that include the Protestant teachers that said Blacks could not be members of their lily white churches because it says so "right the in the BUY-bull"? How about those good Protestant Christians who gave us the Slave trade, the Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee, and the KKK?

<< By the way - Christ used the metaphor of pearls before swine. To say that I called you a pig when I used His metaphor to explain why I would not respond to those who had shown themselves unwilling to admit error is not accurate. I did not do that. >>

Yeah, you did. Nice back-peddle. Calling people swine and dishonest is exactly what you did to anyone who did not agree with your personal opinion.

<< You then went on to list other "proofs" of loss of salvation just as they had done. That is why I lumped you in with them. >>

Yes you lumped me in with all the people you call lying swine because they quote the SCRIPTURES to you which contradict your personal opinion. You can't defend your opinion with scripture, exegesis, and logic so you fall back on ad hominem attacks.

But you're still my brother. Bless your heart!

 

[Wordkeeper]

I'm sorry if the truth hurts. But truth is truth. I've "blown off" nothing.

People spend time forming detailed tee,so it's natural to feel hurt when it is disposed of by saying "You're wrong", without addressing the points.

OK, get me up to speed on what ANE means. Sorry. However, the Bible says frequently in the NT that salvation and eternal life is based on believing (placing your trust in) Jesus Christ. That IS dependence on a person.

ANE aka Ancient Near East. In his book Antiquities, Josephus describes how he advised the Maccabean revolutionaries to "believe in him", follow his commands, not go their own way, to have victory over the Roman Army. He wasn't telling them to depend on him to defeat the enemy single handed.

Right.

The text says that eternal life is available to those who are IN Christ, not to those who depend on Christ. Being IN Christ requires that we have his words in us, obey His words. What you believe is tantamount to teaching that a person can ignore Jesus's command (to walk in the light, immerse ourselves in the moral teachings of scripture, confess our sins to each other, WHEN cleansing from all unrighteousness takes place), and he will still be IN Christ!



This is what Jesus says after instructing the disciples to confess their sins to one another:


John 13:34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Right.

So it isn't as you claim, that eternal life is given to those who depend on Christ. It is given to those who are IN Christ. And we are in Christ if we obey Him:

1 John 2:4The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;


1 John 3:24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

This isn't biblical. Those who believe in Christ are sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

The operative words are HAVING ALSO BELIEVED, having also obeyed...In this case, the confession of baptism.

Where is any of this supported by Scripture?

John 15:10"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Do you really understand what you're saying? Joseph knew Mary sexually. What in the world is your point?

Ephesians 5:31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

This doesn't relate to Joseph knowing Mary. Nor any other point you've made.

See above.

How does any of this support your claims?

Christ desired the disciples have the union in Him that he had with the Father

How does one become "righteous"? Through faith in Christ.Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:Rom 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faithRom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.Phil 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

In contrasting faith with works, we have to remember that faith is doing nothing to contribute to the result. Did Joshua contribute to the result by blowing trumpets? NO! So what he did was not works, but a demonstration of his faith. Was Abraham contributing to the result of his seed becoming a blessing to the world by stepping out to sacrifice Isaac? Similarly, NO! It was a manifestation of his faith. Are we contributing to our salvation by the confession of baptism? NO! It was a manifestation of our faith, which switched on justification.

Glad you asked. The Bible tells me that I have eternal life in these verses.John 3:15-1615 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Those are not evidences. I am asking for results, not causes. Suppose you buy a light which will illuminate your entire garden. If someone asks you if it works, would you say I know it works because I switched it on. That is the cause, not the result. Faith results in eternal life. Faith is the switch that lights up eternal life. What is the evidence? Is the evidence not that you love your brothers?

The ONLY reason anyone has eternal life is because they have placed their full trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for it.Those who think they can work for it do NOT have it. Jesus said as much here: You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me Jn 5:39Those who do not have eternal life are not in the "book of life" and at the Great White Throne judgment in Rom 20:11-15 will be cast into the lake of fire, also called the second death, for eternity.It would be wise indeed to know what the Scriptures say about whether one has eternal life or not. Our eternity depends on it.

Well you better have evidence that your faith resulted in eternal life, because if it didn't, it's the incinerator for you...

 

[FreeGrace2]

ANE aka Ancient Near East. In his book Antiquities, Josephus describes how he advised the Maccabean revolutionaries to "believe in him", follow his commands, not go their own way, to have victory over the Roman Army. He wasn't telling them to depend on him to defeat the enemy single handed.

What's the connection between revolutionaries saying "believe in him" and Paul telling a jailer to believe in Jesus?

The text says that eternal life is available to those who are IN Christ, not to those who depend on Christ.

Seems someone here isn't paying close attention. How many times must I cite John 5:24 and the FACT that those who believe in Christ HAVE eternal life. In the present tense. Eternal life is available to everyone. But only those who believe in Him HAVE it.

Being IN Christ requires that we have his words in us, obey His words.

How many times must i cite Eph 1:13 regarding HOW one is placed IN CHRIST? The Holy Spirit does it. The requirement is to believe in Him. Your claims have no support from Scripture.

What you believe is tantamount to teaching that a person can ignore Jesus's command (to walk in the light, immerse ourselves in the moral teachings of scripture, confess our sins to each other, WHEN cleansing from all unrighteousness takes place), and he will still be IN Christ!

Apparently Eph 1:13,14 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 don't mean much to some. Your view is ignorant of "positional truth", in which ALL believers ARE in Christ.

This is what Jesus says after instructing the disciples to confess their sins to one another: John 13:34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

So it isn't as you claim, that eternal life is given to those who depend on Christ.[/QUOTE]
First, where in these 2 verses does the phrase "eternal life" appear? I'm not seeing them. Jesus gave His disciples a command, but it was NOT for eternal life. It was so that "all men will know that they were His disciples". The text is clear. Your understanding is not.

It is given to those who are IN Christ. And we are in Christ if we obey Him:

Once again, I cite Eph 1:13 as proof that we are IN Christ WHEN we believe in Him.

1 John 2:4The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 3:24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Being "in Christ" and "abiding in Christ" are 2 different things. But I guess that's just not very well known to some. The word "abiding" differentiates the phrases, which should be clear to all. Abiding has to do with fellowship. Being IN CHRIST has to do with relationship.

Please explain the difference between relationship and fellowship.

Well you better have evidence that your faith resulted in eternal life, because if it didn't, it's the incinerator for you...

Please quote whatever verse you think says that.

btw, I've already proved HOW one receives eternal life by quoting Jesus directly. But go ahead and try to refute His words, if possible.