Can you lose your salvation?

[alexsonofmatthew]

Can you lose your Salvation?
Please provide scripture to prove your position.

God bless you

 

[football5680]

Can you obtain it to the point where apostasy and the renunciation of God become irrelevant? I would say no.

"But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:33)

If the defense to this is that a true Christians wouldn't do this, then what does this belief really tell us? The only reason somebody would be a Christian is that they believe Christianity is true. This is true for all Christians but not everybody who is Christian at this point in time will remain that way until their death. We cannot see into the future so we have no idea what category we are in.

 

[Catherineanne]

Can you lose your Salvation?
Please provide scripture to prove your position.

God bless you

In theory yes, in practice after all this time, probably not.

http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-23.htm

 

[Catherineanne]

Can you obtain it to the point where apostasy and the renunciation of God become irrelevant? I would say no.

"But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:33)

If the defense to this is that a true Christians wouldn't do this, then what does this belief really tell us? The only reason somebody would be a Christian is that they believe Christianity is true. This is true for all Christians but not everybody who is Christian at this point in time will remain that way until their death. We cannot see into the future so we have no idea what category we are in.

This is true; we cannot know for certain. But we can have a pretty good idea, of some other people at least.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In fact, Paul made crystal clear that the gifts of God are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. And prior to that statement, he specifically defined exactly what he meant by "gift": spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and eternal life in 6:23. The very next time he mentioned "gifts" is 11:29 where he stated that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So, per context, we have to look at how Paul, not anyone else, defined what he meant by 'gifts'. And he clearly told us what he meant; spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life.

Arminians will go to great length to deny this truth and come up with what Paul "meant" by gifts in 11:29. Yet Paul defined what he meant so there is NO NEED for anyone else to come up with anything other than what Paul defined by the word 'gift'.

Jesus acknowledged that some will "believe for a while" and in time of temptation will fall away - Luke 8:13 per the second soil. Yet He made no comment about not being saved. In fact, soils 2-4 ALL sprouted plants in the soils, indicative of new life or regeneration. Only soil 1 didn't produce any plants, because soil 1 didn't believe (Luke 8:12). And Jesus made it perfectly clear about those who believe ARE saved - "lest they believe and be saved".

 

[alexsonofmatthew]

 

[AlfredKeith]

One of the key issues on the question of salvation is the issue of eternal security. This issue revolves around the question: “Can a Christian fall away from the faith?” Some advocate that there is no such thing as eternal security. Others advocate the view of “Once Saved, Always Saved.” This view argues that if a person is truly saved, he can never lose his salvation. When dealing with the issue of people who leave the church, this view responds with either: 1) that person was never truly saved, or 2) that person is just backslidden and will someday repent.

If You Remain

Scripture indicates a conditional nature to salvation. The key phrase in these verses is: “if you remain.” Remaining in the faith is not a guarantee.

John 8: 31Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed in him, “If you remain in my word, then you are my disciples indeed;”​

I Corinthians 15: 1Moreover, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which you have also received, and in which you stand; 2by which you also are saved if you hold on to what I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain.​

Colossians 1: 21And you once were alienated and enemies in your minds by evil works, 22but now you have been reconciled by his fleshly body through death to present you holy and unblemished and blameless in his presence, 23indeed if you remain in the faith, established and firm and not being removed from the hope of the good news which you heard being proclaimed in all creation under heaven;​

John 16: 1These things I have spoken to you so that you might not fall away.​

Hebrews 2: 1Therefore, we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things that we have heard, otherwise we might drift away.​

Hebrews 3: 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.​

Hebrews 3: 14For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;​

II Peter 1: 10Therefore, brothers give diligence all the more to make your calling and choosing sure; for if you do these things, you will never fall;​

I John 2: 24What you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, then you remain in the son and the father. 25And this is the promise that he promised to us: eternal life. 26I wrote this to you concerning those who would deceive you. 27And the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not have any need for anybody to teach you; but as his anointing teaches you concerning all things, and it is true and not false, just as it has taught you, remain in him. 28And now, children, remain in him so that when he is revealed, we can have confidence and not be disgraced from him at his coming.​

Revelation 3: 5The one who overcomes will be clothed in white clothes, and I will never wipe his name out of the Book of Life. I will declare his name in front of my father and in front of his angels.
- People must remain in the faith to remain as Christians​

The following verses describe people being cut off from God because they do not remain in the faith.

John 15: 5I am the vine, you are the branches; the one remaining in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without me you can do nothing. 6If a man does not remain in me, he is thrown out like a branch and withers; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

Romans 11: 22Therefore, look at the goodness and harshness of God: on them who fell, harshness; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.​

II Timothy 2: 11It is a faithful saying: for if we have died with him, we will also live with him; 12if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;​

I Thessalonians 3: 4For when we were with you, we forewarned you that we were about to suffer tribulation, just as it came to pass as you know. 5For this cause, when I could no longer bear it, I sent to know about your faith unless by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor had been in vain.​

Hebrews 10: 35Therefore, do not cast away your confidence, which has great recompense of reward. 36For you need patience so that after you have done the will of God, you can receive the promise. 37For yet a little while and he that is coming will come and will not delay. “38Now the righteous will live by faith [Hab 2:4],” but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of those who draw back to destruction; but of those that believe to the saving of the soul.​

- Scripture clearly indicates that people can fall away and be cut off from God

People Can Fall Away

This section provides further scriptural evidence that people can fall away from the faith.

Galatians 1: 6I marvel that you are so soon deserting the one that called you into the grace of Christ for another gospel;​

Galatians 5: 4You have been estranged from Christ whoever of you are made righteous by the law; you have fallen from grace.
- In Galatia, Jewish Christians were returning back to observing the Law of Moses​

I Timothy 3: 6He must not be a new convert so that he will not be filled with pride and fall into the devil’s judgment.
- This verse describes church deacons; recent converts are in danger of falling away​

I Timothy 1: 18This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on you, that by them you can fight the good fight; 19holding faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and concerning faith have shipwrecked;​

I Timothy 6: 10For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil; which some having coveted after have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.​

I Timothy 6: 20O Timothy, guard what is committed to your trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings and oppositions falsely called knowledge, 21which some professing have departed concerning the faith....​

II Timothy 2: 16But avoid profane and empty talk, for it will lead to more ungodliness. 17And their words will spread like gangrene, of whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18who concerning the truth have departed, saying that the resurrection has already come; and overturn the faith of some.​

II Peter 3: 17Therefore, beloved, being forewarned, guard yourselves so that you will not also be led away with the error of the wicked and fall from your steadfast position.​

II John: 9Whoever walks ahead and does not remain in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. The one remaining in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.​

The Greek word used in Matthew 5:29-30 (skandalizo) can be translated as “to stumble” or “to fall away.” The context implies that people “stumble” in their faith and are cast into hell.

Matthew 5: 29And if your right eye causes you to stumble [or fall away], pluck it out and cast it away from yourself; for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish so that your whole body will not be cast into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to stumble [or fall away], cut it off and cast it from yourself; for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish so that your whole body will not be cast into hell.​

The following verses describe people falling away from the faith in the End Times.

Matthew 24: 9Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted, and will kill you; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10And then many will fall away, and will betray one another, and will hate one another.​

I Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons;​

 

[Job8]

In order to answer that question in the title, one would need to ask the following questions:
1. What is salvation?
2. How does a person get saved?
3. How does God reverse the New Birth (if indeed He does)?
4. What (or more precisely Who) keeps one saved?
5. What is the ultimate purpose of being saved from Hell?

So the short answer is "No".

 

[FreeGrace2]

One of the key issues on the question of salvation is the issue of eternal security. This issue revolves around the question: “Can a Christian fall away from the faith?” Some advocate that there is no such thing as eternal security. Others advocate the view of “Once Saved, Always Saved.” This view argues that if a person is truly saved, he can never lose his salvation. When dealing with the issue of people who leave the church, this view responds with either: 1) that person was never truly saved, or 2) that person is just backslidden and will someday repent.

If You Remain

Scripture indicates a conditional nature to salvation. The key phrase in these verses is: “if you remain.” Remaining in the faith is not a guarantee.

John 8: 31Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed in him, “If you remain in my word, then you are my disciples indeed;”​

I Corinthians 15: 1Moreover, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which you have also received, and in which you stand; 2by which you also are saved if you hold on to what I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain.​

Colossians 1: 21And you once were alienated and enemies in your minds by evil works, 22but now you have been reconciled by his fleshly body through death to present you holy and unblemished and blameless in his presence, 23indeed if you remain in the faith, established and firm and not being removed from the hope of the good news which you heard being proclaimed in all creation under heaven;​

John 16: 1These things I have spoken to you so that you might not fall away.​

Hebrews 2: 1Therefore, we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things that we have heard, otherwise we might drift away.​

Hebrews 3: 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.​

Hebrews 3: 14For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;​

II Peter 1: 10Therefore, brothers give diligence all the more to make your calling and choosing sure; for if you do these things, you will never fall;​

I John 2: 24What you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, then you remain in the son and the father. 25And this is the promise that he promised to us: eternal life. 26I wrote this to you concerning those who would deceive you. 27And the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not have any need for anybody to teach you; but as his anointing teaches you concerning all things, and it is true and not false, just as it has taught you, remain in him. 28And now, children, remain in him so that when he is revealed, we can have confidence and not be disgraced from him at his coming.​

Revelation 3: 5The one who overcomes will be clothed in white clothes, and I will never wipe his name out of the Book of Life. I will declare his name in front of my father and in front of his angels.
- People must remain in the faith to remain as Christians​

The following verses describe people being cut off from God because they do not remain in the faith.

John 15: 5I am the vine, you are the branches; the one remaining in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without me you can do nothing. 6If a man does not remain in me, he is thrown out like a branch and withers; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

Romans 11: 22Therefore, look at the goodness and harshness of God: on them who fell, harshness; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.​

II Timothy 2: 11It is a faithful saying: for if we have died with him, we will also live with him; 12if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;​

I Thessalonians 3: 4For when we were with you, we forewarned you that we were about to suffer tribulation, just as it came to pass as you know. 5For this cause, when I could no longer bear it, I sent to know about your faith unless by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor had been in vain.​

Hebrews 10: 35Therefore, do not cast away your confidence, which has great recompense of reward. 36For you need patience so that after you have done the will of God, you can receive the promise. 37For yet a little while and he that is coming will come and will not delay. “38Now the righteous will live by faith [Hab 2:4],” but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of those who draw back to destruction; but of those that believe to the saving of the soul.​

- Scripture clearly indicates that people can fall away and be cut off from God

People Can Fall Away

This section provides further scriptural evidence that people can fall away from the faith.

Galatians 1: 6I marvel that you are so soon deserting the one that called you into the grace of Christ for another gospel;​

Galatians 5: 4You have been estranged from Christ whoever of you are made righteous by the law; you have fallen from grace.
- In Galatia, Jewish Christians were returning back to observing the Law of Moses​

I Timothy 3: 6He must not be a new convert so that he will not be filled with pride and fall into the devil’s judgment.
- This verse describes church deacons; recent converts are in danger of falling away​

I Timothy 1: 18This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on you, that by them you can fight the good fight; 19holding faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and concerning faith have shipwrecked;​

I Timothy 6: 10For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil; which some having coveted after have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.​

I Timothy 6: 20O Timothy, guard what is committed to your trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings and oppositions falsely called knowledge, 21which some professing have departed concerning the faith....​

II Timothy 2: 16But avoid profane and empty talk, for it will lead to more ungodliness. 17And their words will spread like gangrene, of whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18who concerning the truth have departed, saying that the resurrection has already come; and overturn the faith of some.​

II Peter 3: 17Therefore, beloved, being forewarned, guard yourselves so that you will not also be led away with the error of the wicked and fall from your steadfast position.​

II John: 9Whoever walks ahead and does not remain in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. The one remaining in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.​

The Greek word used in Matthew 5:29-30 (skandalizo) can be translated as “to stumble” or “to fall away.” The context implies that people “stumble” in their faith and are cast into hell.

Matthew 5: 29And if your right eye causes you to stumble [or fall away], pluck it out and cast it away from yourself; for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish so that your whole body will not be cast into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to stumble [or fall away], cut it off and cast it from yourself; for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish so that your whole body will not be cast into hell.​

The following verses describe people falling away from the faith in the End Times.

Matthew 24: 9Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted, and will kill you; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10And then many will fall away, and will betray one another, and will hate one another.​

I Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons;​

​

In fact, Paul made crystal clear that the gifts of God are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. And prior to that statement, he specifically defined exactly what he meant by "gift": spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and eternal life in 6:23. The very next time he mentioned "gifts" is 11:29 where he stated that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So, per context, we have to look at how Paul, not anyone else, defined what he meant by 'gifts'. And he clearly told us what he meant; spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life.

Arminians will go to great length to deny this truth and come up with what Paul "meant" by gifts in 11:29. Yet Paul defined what he meant so there is NO NEED for anyone else to come up with anything other than what Paul defined by the word 'gift'.

Jesus acknowledged that some will "believe for a while" and in time of temptation will fall away - Luke 8:13 per the second soil. Yet He made no comment about not being saved. In fact, soils 2-4 ALL sprouted plants in the soils, indicative of new life or regeneration. Only soil 1 didn't produce any plants, because soil 1 didn't believe (Luke 8:12). And Jesus made it perfectly clear about those who believe ARE saved - "lest they believe and be saved".

 

[AlfredKeith]

​

In fact, Paul made crystal clear that the gifts of God are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. And prior to that statement, he specifically defined exactly what he meant by "gift": spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and eternal life in 6:23. The very next time he mentioned "gifts" is 11:29 where he stated that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So, per context, we have to look at how Paul, not anyone else, defined what he meant by 'gifts'. And he clearly told us what he meant; spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life.

Arminians will go to great length to deny this truth and come up with what Paul "meant" by gifts in 11:29. Yet Paul defined what he meant so there is NO NEED for anyone else to come up with anything other than what Paul defined by the word 'gift'.

Jesus acknowledged that some will "believe for a while" and in time of temptation will fall away - Luke 8:13 per the second soil. Yet He made no comment about not being saved. In fact, soils 2-4 ALL sprouted plants in the soils, indicative of new life or regeneration. Only soil 1 didn't produce any plants, because soil 1 didn't believe (Luke 8:12). And Jesus made it perfectly clear about those who believe ARE saved - "lest they believe and be saved".

I am curious of your reference to Rom 11:29. Rom 11:28-29 tells us that Israel is still God's chosen people because of God's call to Abraham in Gen 12. God's "call" is irrevocable, so Israel is God's chosen nation. Yet the Bible also tells us that the majority of Israelites were never saved (Rom 9:27) even though they were "called" as God's chosen people. Are you sure this is the best argument for establishing that salvation can never be lost?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am curious of your reference to Rom 11:29. Rom 11:28-29 tells us that Israel is still God's chosen people because of God's call to Abraham in Gen 12. God's "call" is irrevocable, so Israel is God's chosen nation. Yet the Bible also tells us that the majority of Israelites were never saved (Rom 9:27) even though they were "called" as God's chosen people. Are you sure this is the best argument for establishing that salvation can never be lost?

Sure. For several reasons.

While the nation of Israel was chosen, that wasn't a choosing for salvation. And God's calling them as His chosen people was never revoked.

I'm not sure why you think my point about 11:29 isn't the "best argument" for eternal security.

Paul defined what he meant by 'gift' before he penned 11:29. It is those things that he defined that is what 11:29 is about. So, we know that spiritual gifts (1:11), justification (3:24, 5;15,16,17,) and eternal life (6:23) are the gifts that he was referring to in 11:29.

So, it IS the best argument for eternal security. No one can show that Paul meant anything else by 'gift' in 11:29 than what he already defined as gift previously.

Not only that, but no one can show that Paul specifically didn't mean eternal life and justification in 11:29.

So, yes, it is by FAR the best argument for eternal security.

 

[AlfredKeith]

Sure. For several reasons.

While the nation of Israel was chosen, that wasn't a choosing for salvation. And God's calling them as His chosen people was never revoked.

I'm not sure why you think my point about 11:29 isn't the "best argument" for eternal security.

Paul defined what he meant by 'gift' before he penned 11:29. It is those things that he defined that is what 11:29 is about. So, we know that spiritual gifts (1:11), justification (3:24, 5;15,16,17,) and eternal life (6:23) are the gifts that he was referring to in 11:29.

So, it IS the best argument for eternal security. No one can show that Paul meant anything else by 'gift' in 11:29 than what he already defined as gift previously.

Not only that, but no one can show that Paul specifically didn't mean eternal life and justification in 11:29.

So, yes, it is by FAR the best argument for eternal security.

You make a reasonable enough argument here regarding salvation being an irrevocable gift of God, but the Arminian view is: God will never take salvation away from you, but what if you turn your back on him?

I am curious about your exegesis of the following verses from my previous list.

I Corinthians 15: 1Moreover, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which you have also received, and in which you stand; 2by which you also are saved if you hold on to what I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain.
- Specifically, how can we believe in vain?

Colossians 1: 21And you once were alienated and enemies in your minds by evil works, 22but now you have been reconciled by his fleshly body through death to present you holy and unblemished and blameless in his presence, 23indeed if you remain in the faith, established and firm and not being removed from the hope of the good news which you heard being proclaimed in all creation under heaven;
- What about the phrase "indeed if you remain in the faith...not being removed from the hope...?"

Romans 11: 22Therefore, look at the goodness and harshness of God: on them who fell, harshness; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
- What does it mean to be cut off?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You make a reasonable enough argument here regarding salvation being an irrevocable gift of God, but the Arminian view is: God will never take salvation away from you, but what if you turn your back on him?

I believe the fact that eternal life is irrevocable removes any notion that one can turn their back on it, or give it back or away, etc. Further, where does Scripture tell us that one can actually remove (turn their back on) salvation?

I am curious about your exegesis of the following verses from my previous list.

I Corinthians 15: 1Moreover, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which you have also received, and in which you stand; 2by which you also are saved if you hold on to what I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain.
- Specifically, how can we believe in vain?

My Greek lexicon says this about "in vain", which is one word in the Greek:

eikē
1) inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause
2) in vain
2a) without success or effort
Part of Speech: adverb

Since 2a doesn't seem applicable, it appears that the word in 1 Cor 15:3 carries the idea of "without purpose". So, what does that mean? I believe the answer is that all faith must have a purpose; or the reason one puts faith in something or someone. And the reason we are to believe in Christ is for eternal life. So, Paul is making the point that we must believe in Him for eternal life/salvation in order to be saved.

iow, if one thinks that believing in Christ for a "better life", also known as the prosperity gospel, they are wrong and not saved.

Colossians 1: 21And you once were alienated and enemies in your minds by evil works, 22but now you have been reconciled by his fleshly body through death to present you holy and unblemished and blameless in his presence, 23indeed if you remain in the faith, established and firm and not being removed from the hope of the good news which you heard being proclaimed in all creation under heaven;
- What about the phrase "indeed if you remain in the faith...not being removed from the hope…?"

The end of v.22 links directly to the "if" condition of v.23a. It looks like this: you have been reconciled by His death TO PRESENT (purpose) you holy and unblemished and blameless (same purpose of election in Eph 1:4)…..IF indeed you remain in the faith.

So, the condition of being presented holy and blameless is to remain in the faith. How would that be possible IF one didn't remain in the faith? It isn't. Which is the point. And, btw, remaining in the faith says nothing about "remaining saved", as if the opposite were possible. To remain in the faith is to live out the Christain life according to Scripture. Many believers don't and they cannot be "presented holy and blameless in His presence".

The phrase "not being removed from the hope" speaks of not losing one's confidence in Christ.

Here is the Greek word and meaning for 'hope':

elpis
1) expectation of evil, fear
2) expectation of good, hope
2a) in the Christian sense
2a1) joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation
3) on hope, in hope, having hope
3a) the author of hope, or he who is its foundation
3b) the thing hoped for

The problem is that the word 'hope' today has a different meaning and use. Today, we use 'hope' more as a wishful thought than a confident expectation. This speaks of confidence and the word should be understood that way; not as a wishful thought as in "I hope so", but rather, "I KNOW so".

Romans 11: 22Therefore, look at the goodness and harshness of God: on them who fell, harshness; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
- What does it mean to be cut off?

This text is an agricultural metaphor. Nothing literal here. To be cut off in that economy would be understood as being unuseful to the farmer and therefore cut off and cast away or burned. This is no way refers to hell, which is the immediate Arminian default. Again, it was an agricultural metaphor and should be understood in that light.

Was the election of the nation of Israel about being useful to God? Sure. Did they fulfill that purpose? They sure didn't. They failed again and again. And that is part of the context in Rom 11. God called Israel to serve Him (election). God's calling is irrevocable (11:29). Same for the gifts specifically defined by Paul in 3:24 (justification) and 6:23 (eternal life). They are irrevocable.

If God allowed any of His children to give back the gift of eternal life, how is that materially different than God simply revoking the gift of eternal life? I see none. So the argument is fallacious.

 

[bling]

I'm not sure why you think my point about 11:29 isn't the "best argument" for eternal security.

Paul defined what he meant by 'gift' before he penned 11:29. It is those things that he defined that is what 11:29 is about. So, we know that spiritual gifts (1:11), justification (3:24, 5;15,16,17,) and eternal life (6:23) are the gifts that he was referring to in 11:29.

So, it IS the best argument for eternal security. No one can show that Paul meant anything else by 'gift' in 11:29 than what he already defined as gift previously.
.

I think you are missing one very important aspect to a gift. It is not only “irrevocable”, mean God will not take it back, but the ownership of the gift has changed hands, from the giver to the receiver of the gift. That gift is now in the control of the receiver and no one can take it from him, including the fact that God will not take it back.

But as the Hebrew writer points out in Heb. 12: 16 “See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son” the gift of eternal life is like a birthright (we have an irrevocable right to it) but you can sell it or give it away since it is truly yours. Paul explains this in Gal. 6: 8…from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. We can give up or sell our eternal life with God in heaven.

You cannot reverse the transaction but you can give your gift to satan.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I think you are missing one very important aspect to a gift. It is not only “irrevocable”, mean God will not take it back, but the ownership of the gift has changed hands, from the giver to the receiver of the gift. That gift is now in the control of the receiver and no one can take it from him, including the fact that God will not take it back.

But as the Hebrew writer points out in Heb. 12: 16 “See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son” the gift of eternal life is like a birthright (we have an irrevocable right to it) but you can sell it or give it away since it is truly yours. Paul explains this in Gal. 6: 8…from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. We can give up or sell our eternal life with God in heaven.

You cannot reverse the transaction but you can give your gift to satan.

People from all persuasions agree that you can live your life for yourself, Satan or God.

But since the new life within you is an irrevocable gift from God, the source of all life - one that He refuses to take back again - one cannot "lose" or "give away" your salvation in the "Heaven vs. Hell" sense.

You can suffer great loss as compared to what would have been gained by living for God only. These things are spelled out plainly in the doctrines of the Judgment Seat of Christ, crowns, wood hay and stubble, etc.

But eternal life is by definition "ETERNAL".

One simply cannot die again spiritually. He has passed from death to life.

If people understood the grace of God that is the source of their salvation, they would not doubt their security IMO.

They may and should however examine themselves to be sure that they have indeed passed from death to life and are now in the faith lest they run the race in vain.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think you are missing one very important aspect to a gift. It is not only “irrevocable”, mean God will not take it back, but the ownership of the gift has changed hands, from the giver to the receiver of the gift.

Please quit treating or considering the gift to be some object. It's NOT. It's eternal life. If words mean things, and the DO, eternal life is, well, eternal. It cannot die. And there is NO Scripture that says that the one possessing eternal life has any POWER to give it away, which is just a fallacy.

That gift is now in the control of the receiver and no one can take it from him, including the fact that God will not take it back.

How does one "control" their eternal life? Sure, one can commit suicide and end their physical life. But, so what? That isn't possible with eternal life. Why? Because it's, well, eternal. So your point is moot.

But as the Hebrew writer points out in Heb. 12: 16 “See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son” the gift of eternal life is like a birthright (we have an irrevocable right to it) but you can sell it or give it away since it is truly yours.

Nice try, but no dice. No one can give away their eternal life. And no Scripture says so.

Paul explains this in Gal. 6: 8…from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. We can give up or sell our eternal life with God in heaven.

Nope. No way that "if we do not give up" refers to giving up eternal life. It refers to giving up our efforts to receive eternal reward. That's what "reap a harvest" means. The verse has nothing to do with gaining salvation or giving it up.

So, which verse does support your notion that eternal life can be sold or given up?

You cannot reverse the transaction but you can give your gift to satan.

Until someone quotes a verse that actually says this, there is no reason at all to believe it. What in the world would Satan do with that gift?

In fact, Satan has nothing to do with our salvation. Once a person believes in Christ, they become children of God.

 

[Job8]

Something which the naysayers seem to forget is that Christ Himself is the Christian's eternal life -- CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY. Christians by definition are "IN CHRIST" and Christ is "WITHIN THE BELIEVER". Thus is it impossible to *lose* salvation.

At the same time, Christians who persist in sin must face the consequences. But those do not entail the loss of eternal life. Study the Scriptures.

 

[bling]

People from all persuasions agree that you can live your life for yourself, Satan or God.

But since the new life within you is an irrevocable gift from God, the source of all life - one that He refuses to take back again - one cannot "lose" or "give away" your salvation in the "Heaven vs. Hell" sense.

You can suffer great loss as compared to what would have been gained by living for God only. These things are spelled out plainly in the doctrines of the Judgment Seat of Christ, crowns, wood hay and stubble, etc.

But eternal life is by definition "ETERNAL".

One simply cannot die again spiritually. He has passed from death to life.

If people understood the grace of God that is the source of their salvation, they would not doubt their security IMO.

They may and should however examine themselves to be sure that they have indeed passed from death to life and are now in the faith lest they run the race in vain.

“Irrevocable” gift of eternal life “yes”, but since the receiver of the gift now owns the gift; he can pass it on to satan.

Where does scripture ever suggest a gift given to you cannot be given away by you?

 

[bling]

Please quit treating or considering the gift to be some object. It's NOT. It's eternal life. If words mean things, and the DO, eternal life is, well, eternal. It cannot die..

The “birthright” (the example the Hebrew writer uses) was not some object either, yet it could be sold or given away.

And there is NO Scripture that says that the one possessing eternal life has any POWER to give it away, which is just a fallacy..

You are not reading the scriptures I gave you, Paul says in Gal. 6: 8…from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

The harvest of eternal life is contingent on the individual not giving up.

How does one "control" their eternal life? Sure, one can commit suicide and end their physical life. But, so what? That isn't possible with eternal life. Why? Because it's, well, eternal. So your point is moot..

The same way one can “control” his birthright which has no “end point” in this life either, in that they can give their eternal life with God to satan.

Nice try, but no dice. No one can give away their eternal life. And no Scripture says so. .

Gal 6:7-9

Nope. No way that "if we do not give up" refers to giving up eternal life. It refers to giving up our efforts to receive eternal reward. That's what "reap a harvest" means. The verse has nothing to do with gaining salvation or giving it up..

Paul specifically says: “whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” Then goes on to say: “…for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”

It says what it says.

In fact, Satan has nothing to do with our salvation. Once a person believes in Christ, they become children of God.

You can leave the family of God to join the family of satan the way the prodigal son left.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The “birthright” (the example the Hebrew writer uses) was not some object either, yet it could be sold or given away.

Doesn't matter. There are NO verses that teach or even suggest that one who has eternal life has the authority to "give it away". One can kill their own body. But no one can kill ETERNAL life. And it can't be given away because one cannot give away their physical life, or spiritual life.

You are not reading the scriptures I gave you, Paul says in Gal. 6: 8…from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

I explained what "do not give up" means. Was it ignored??

The harvest of eternal life is contingent on the individual not giving up.

No verse says that.

The same way one can “control” his birthright which has no “end point” in this life either, in that they can give their eternal life with God to satan.

Which verse tells us that we can give our gift of eternal life to Satan?

Gal 6:7-9

Really? So, let's see about that:
"7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For theone who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary."

Just as I thought: no mention of Satan, no mention of "giving away" one's eternal life. So, it's obvious that the notion of being able to "give away one's eternal life" is just a made up story.

Paul specifically says: “whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” Then goes on to say: “…for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”

Apparently there is no understanding here as to what your point actually is. If your "interpretation" is correct, one is saved by "pleasing the Spirit" then. So, Paul directly lied to the jailer who wanted to know how to be saved. Paul sure didn't tell him to please the Spirit. Your view completely destroys the doctrine of soteriology, which is salvation by grace THROUGH FAITH.

It says what it says.

That it does. And many seem to completely misunderstand what it says.

You can leave the family of God to join the family of satan the way the prodigal son left.

Is this a suggestion that the prodigal son joined Satan's family?? Where do you get your ideas?? None of them are supported by Scripture.