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Can you lose your salvation??

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Sandman777, Jan 2, 2002.

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  1. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Kevin,

    What is your definition of disciple? Jesus simply said that many follow (play church) that are not saved (they do not really believe). We see that all the time. This scripture is about election BTW.

    Blessings
     
  2. 4thecross

    4thecross New Member

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    Greetings eldermike,

    No, twisting scripture means that it doesn't agree with what the scripture is obviously saying. Just like the following scripture:

    (Heb 6:4-6) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, (6) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

    I've heard this one explained away, too. When a man abides in Jesus, then no one can snatch him away, but every man will always have that choice. Everyday, I get up and count the cost of being a disciple, knowing how painful it is for my flesh to walk in the Light with sin, suffering in my body to be done with it.

    (1 John 1:7 NIV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

    (1 Pet 4:1) Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.

    So everyday, I make the choice to follow Jesus. I pray that tomorrow, I'll make the same decision.

    Much Grace,
    Kevin
     
  3. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Why did Jesus die on a cross? If I could just do some stuff and be saved by doing it, why did He die on a cross?

    Jesus died on a cross because of original sin, not your sin, Adams sin.
    It's our sin nature that had to be forgiven, not our sin.

    Sin will destroy you or me, but it will not keep you from Heaven. That is why He died.

    What is your thoughts on why He died?

    And,,btw, It's ok to disagree. We are Christian brothers. Having this right or wrong will not save us either.

    Blessings
     
  4. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Kevin,

    Every one of those scriptures has been gone through, over and over. I would suggest you find any thread on OSAS and just read it.

    Blessings
     
  5. 4thecross

    4thecross New Member

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    Greetings eldermike,

    My definition of disciple is from the words of Jesus:

    (Luke 14:26) "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."

    (Luke 14:27) "And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."

    (Luke 14:33 NIV) In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

    Again, twisting scripture is saying that election has something to do with John 6:60-66. They were disciples, not travelers, and they turned their backs on Jesus (which by the way, is the only way a person can lose their salvation).

    Love in Christ,
    Kevin
     
  6. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Kevin,

    I am gald, so glad that you posted Luke 14:33 as your definition of Disiple.
    So tell me, how much of your stuff have you given up?

    Why did Jesus die on a cross?

    Blessings
     
  7. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Kevin,

    What is your background? What denomination are you?

    I am Southern Baptist

    Blessings
     
  8. 4thecross

    4thecross New Member

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    Greetings eldermike,

    I totally agree that Jesus died for our sins. God's Grace would not be available to us to overcome sin if it were not for that.

    However, most people only want to obey a few scriptures, mainly that feed their flesh, while ignoring others. A Christian must obey all scriptures, even the ones that are uncomfortable.

    No offense intended, but if you (or anyone else who believes OSAS) discovered you were wrong, it would reveal your entire foundation was wrong. So much lies at the core of this doctrine.

    (Prov 27:17 NIV) As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

    Love in Christ,
    Kevin
     
  9. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Kevin,

    I am debating in this thread but I am going to stop here because I am a mod.

    I don't believe that there are any lies in the doctrine we are discussing. When I hear statements like that I move on.

    You have a good day.

    Be considerate and edifying in your posts to others.

    Blessings
     
  10. Claudia

    Claudia New Member

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    As far as the doctrine of "Election" and thinking that if we are the "elect" we cannot be lost goes... -you should read this, concerning the early Methodist movement...

    =========


    A systematic persecution was carried on against a people whose only fault was that of seeking to turn the feet of sinners from the path of destruction to the path of holiness.

    Said John Wesley, referring to the charges against himself and his associates: "Some allege that the doctrines of these men are false, erroneous, and enthusiastic; that they are new and unheard-of till of late; that they are Quakerism, fanaticism, popery. This whole pretense has been already cut up by the roots, it having been shown at large that every branch of this doctrine is the plain doctrine of Scripture interpreted by our own church. Therefore it cannot be either false or erroneous, provided the Scripture be true." "Others allege, "Their doctrine is too strict; they make the way to heaven too narrow.' And this is in truth the original objection, (as it was almost the only one for some time,) and is secretly at the bottom of a thousand more, which appear in various forms. But do they make the way to heaven any narrower than our Lord and His apostles made it? Is their doctrine stricter than that of the Bible? Consider only a few plain texts: 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy mind, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength.' 'For every idle word which men shall speak, they shall give an account in the day of judgment.' 'Whether ye eat, or drink, or whatever ye do, do all to the glory of God.'
    "If their doctrine is stricter than this, they are to blame; but you know in your conscience it is not. And who can be one jot less strict without corrupting the word of God? Can any steward of the mysteries of God be found faithful if he change any part of that sacred depositum? No. He can abate nothing, he can soften nothing; he is constrained to declare to all men, 'I may not bring down the Scripture to your taste. You must come up to it, or perish forever.' This is the real ground of that other popular cry concerning 'the uncharitableness of these men.' Uncharitable, are they? In what respect? Do they not feed the hungry and clothe the naked? 'No; that is not the thing: they are not wanting in this: but they are so uncharitable in judging! they think none can be saved but those of their own way.'"-- Ibid., vol. 3, pp. 152, 153.

    The spiritual declension which had been manifest in England just before the time of Wesley was in great degree the result of antinomian teaching. Many affirmed that Christ had abolished the moral law and that Christians are therefore under no obligation to observe it; that a believer is freed from the "bondage of good works." Others, though admitting the perpetuity of the law, declared that it was unnecessary for ministers to exhort the people to obedience of its precepts, since those whom God had elected to salvation would, "by the irresistible impulse of divine grace, be led to the practice of piety and virtue," while those who were doomed to eternal reprobation "did not have power to obey the divine law."

    Others, also holding that "the elect cannot fall from grace nor forfeit the divine favor," arrived at the still more hideous conclusion that "the wicked actions they commit are not really sinful, nor to be considered as instances of their violation of the divine law, and that, consequently, they have no occasion either to confess their sins or to break them off by repentance."--McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia, art. "Antinomians." Therefore, they declared that even one of the vilest of sins, "considered universally an enormous violation of the divine law, is not a sin in the sight of God," if committed by one of the elect, "because it is one of the essential and distinctive characteristics of the elect, that they cannot do anything that is either displeasing to God or prohibited by the law."

    These monstrous doctrines are essentially the same as the later teaching of popular educators and theologians--that there is no unchangeable divine law as the standard of right, but that the standard of morality is indicated by society itself, and has constantly been subject to change. All these ideas are inspired by the same master spirit--by him who, even among the sinless inhabitants of heaven, began his work of seeking to break down the righteous restraints of the law of God.

    The doctrine of the divine decrees, unalterably fixing the character of men, had led many to a virtual rejection of the law of God. Wesley steadfastly opposed the errors of the antinomian teachers and showed that this doctrine which led to antinomianism was contrary to the Scriptures. "The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men ." "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all ." Titus 2:11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6. The Spirit of God is freely bestowed to enable every man to lay hold upon the means of salvation. Thus Christ, "the true Light," "lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9. Men fail of salvation through their own willful refusal of the gift of life.

    In answer to the claim that at the death of Christ the precepts of the Decalogue had been abolished with the ceremonial law, Wesley said: "The moral law, contained in the Ten Commandments and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away. It was not the design of His coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken, which 'stands fast as the faithful witness in heaven.' . . . This was from the beginning of the world, being 'written not on tables of stone,' but on the hearts of all the children of men, when they came out of the hands of the Creator. And however the letters once wrote by the finger of God are now in a great measure defaced by sin, yet can they not wholly be blotted out, while we have any consciousness of good and evil. Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God, and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other.

    "'I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.' . . . Without question, His meaning in this place is (consistently with all that goes before and follows after),--I am come to establish it in its fullness, in spite of all the glosses of men: I am come to place in a full and clear view whatsoever was dark or obscure therein: I am come to declare the true and full import of every part of it; to show the length and breadth, the entire extent, of every commandment contained therein, and the height and depth, the inconceivable purity and spirituality of it in all its branches."--Wesley, sermon 25.
    Wesley declared the perfect harmony of the law and the gospel. "There is, therefore, the closest connection that can be conceived, between the law and the gospel. On the one hand, the law continually makes way for, and points us to, the gospel; on the other, the gospel continually leads us to a more exact fulfilling of the law. The law, for instance, requires us to love God, to love our neighbor, to be meek, humble, or holy. We feel that we are not sufficient for these things; yea, that 'with man this is impossible;' but we see a promise of God to give us that love, and to make us humble, meek, and holy: we lay hold of this gospel, of these glad tidings; it is done unto us according to our faith; and 'the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us,' through faith which is in Christ Jesus. . . .

    "In the highest rank of the enemies of the gospel of Christ," said Wesley, "are they who openly and explicitly 'judge the law' itself, and 'speak evil of the law;' who teach men to break (to dissolve, to loose, to untie the obligation of) not one only, whether of the least or of the greatest, but all the commandments at a stroke. . . . The most surprising of all the circumstances that attend this strong delusion, is that they who are given up to it, really believe that they honor Christ by overthrowing His law, and that they are magnifying His office while they are destroying His doctrine! Yea, they honor Him just as Judas did when he said, 'Hail, Master, and kissed Him.' And He may as justly say to every one of them, 'Betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss? It is no other than betraying Him with a kiss, to talk of His blood, and take away His crown; to set light by any part of His law, under pretense of advancing His gospel. Nor indeed can anyone escape this charge, who preaches faith in any such a manner as either directly or indirectly tends to set aside any branch of obedience: who preaches Christ so as to disannul, or weaken in any wise, the least of the commandments of God."-- Ibid .


    To those who urged that "the preaching of the gospel answers all the ends of the law," Wesley replied: "This we utterly deny. It does not answer the very first end of the law, namely, the convincing men of sin, the awakening those who are still asleep on the brink of hell." The apostle Paul declares that "by the law is the knowledge of sin;" "and not until man is convicted of sin, will he truly feel his need of the atoning blood of Christ. . . . 'They that be whole,' as our Lord Himself observes, 'need not a physician, but they that are sick.' It is absurd, therefore, to offer a physician to them that are whole, or that at least imagine themselves so to be. You are first to convince them that they are sick; otherwise they will not thank you for your labor. It is equally absurd to offer Christ to them whose heart is whole, having never yet been broken."-- Ibid., sermon 35.

    Thus while preaching the gospel of the grace of God, Wesley, like his Master, sought to "magnify the law, and make it honorable."
     
  11. 4thecross

    4thecross New Member

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    Greetings again,

    I used to be Presbyterian, then Methodist, then nothing, then Charismatic. I couldn't be settled because there was always something missing in their doctrine. I am now non-denominational, and I attend a church called Sound Doctrine (for more information: http://www.sdoctrine.org/pages/main/beliefs.htm).

    As far as how much stuff have I given up? I can only say I have given up my life. Not very glorious-sounding. :) But God has given me His Grace to allow me to leave my love of money, my laziness, and a huge list of sins. Of course, the Lord had me leave my huge house, my high-paying job, and my home town to begin this process. Essentially, I left everything.

    But the joy I have found is unspeakable.

    Love in Christ,
    Kevin
     
  12. 4thecross

    4thecross New Member

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    Greeting eldermike,

    If you will re-read my post, I did not say "lies" as in "not true", but rather "lies" as in "is laying down"

    Much Grace,
    Kevin
     
  13. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    I did re-read your post, you are correct, I read it wrong. Forgive me.

    I was reading your faith statement but got caught up in the music issue. I just wanted to acknowledge that I was wrong about your "lie" statement.
    Back to reading, I will be back.

    Blessings
     
  14. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Kevin,

    I find much I agree with and some things I do not agree with. I have gone the other route in my Christian life. I focus now on the freedom of the cross. I pick up my cross daily but not because I have too, I want too.
    I also sin all I want too, I just don't want too.

    A doctrine is not a few scriptures read literally, it's an understanding that shapes your interpretation of scripture. You see one thing, I see another.
    Perhaps that is Gods way of getting us to the right fellowship of Believers.

    Take the issue of money. God uses money to do His will, yet He tells us to hate it. Christians do not hate the money that others give to the church, they love that money. God said to give 10%, this means I keep 90% of something I am supposed to hate. I can't give 10% unless I have some but I am supposed to give it all away..Confusing? Yep, to say the least.

    A doctrine is formed to keep yourself from being jerked all over the place.

    We have different doctrine, that is not misusing the word of God. In fact, it might just be that an alcoholic needs to read, "NO Drinking" and it would matter not to me, I don't drink in the first place.

    It's not as cut and dry as you paste it.
    My doctrine is OSAS.

    BTW, I was reading the music thing on your site and have a comment. Music is tones and intervals---nothing more or less than that. Worship is a committed life. Music is not worship, it's just music.

    Blessings
    Blessings
     
  15. 4thecross

    4thecross New Member

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    Greetings eldermike,

    Thanks for checking it out. What do you not agree with?
    (maybe this would be best as a new thread?)

    Love in Christ,
    Kevin
     
  16. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    I would not want to debate the faith and message statement of your church. It actually would not be a good subject for a thread. CF is about unity of the Body of Christ.

    I believe OSAS, The blood of Christ was sufficent to save me. I didn't deserve it and I can't pay it back, the gift is too large. Other than that we don't disagree on much. I don't want to debate our differences, I will post and debate my beleifs but not as a attack to yours.

    Welcome to the boards and enjoy.

    Blessings
     
  17. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    Truth. :wave:

     

    ----------------------------------------

    But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:3)
     
  18. new2calvin

    new2calvin Solus Christus

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    John 8:36-So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
     
  19. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

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  20. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    When I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour the following  attributes was granted to me instantly.


     Access to God's Grace.....(Ephesians 2:8+18) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

     Adopted by God.... (Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Galatians 4:5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    I get an Inheritance.... (Ephesians 1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

     I am elected (saved)... (1 Peter 1:2) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    I become a child of God... (John 1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
     
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