Can you lose your salvation??

[jrmorganjr]

Hi Ben,

OK, we just agreed that "salvation is NOT what we do". So, how do we "become right with God by having our sin debt paid-for" Is it not, by "receiving Jesus"?

"We" don't do anything. Christ already did the work. We simply accept the gift through faith, and even that God gives us to do - we don't do anything, God does it in us by grace. Lest we have reason to brag.

Salvation is what happens when we receive Christ, it is not the receiving itself.

Your request for scripture:

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Note the "now". In an instant, the fulfillment of salvation of which each born again experience is the instantaneous down payment that allows us to say we "have" salvation. In other words, we have salvation the moment we are in Christ, and it will be fulfilled on the Last Day - we will not be judged outside of Christ, we will have been "saved" from our sin penalty - the Accuser, Satan, will list our sins, and Christ will reply "Tetelestai" (sp) - "(Sin) Debt paid in full".

Also,
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Obviously, sanctification & salvation can't be the same thing, or this scripture makes no sense.

Otherwise, we actually seem to agree through most of your last analysis. Probably because we weren't discussing the N part of OSNAS. Anyway, the old-sin-nature is still there as Paul notes, at war within our bodies, but our spirit is alive to God and no longer at war with Him. Again as much earlier in the thread, we are positionally sinless because of Christ's imputed righteousness upon the believer, but still sinners in practical terms in that the Old-sin-nature still sins. In the words of the Master, "The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak."

 

[Ben johnson]

He claims the free gift is NOT eternal life but a provision for it. I showed him Romans 6:23.

"The wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life". "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who HAS THE SON has the life, he who does not have the Son has not the life. I write this that you can KNOW you have eternal life." Rom6:23, 1Jn5:11-13

Our problem has never been Hell. Our problem has, since Adam, been sin. Jesus Himself is the propitiation for our sins. (1Jn2:2) But not for US ALONE (the saved), but for the WORLD (the rest who might be saved)" (1Jn2:2). In being saved from our sin, we are consequentially saved from Hell...

"For there is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave Himself up as a ransom for all."

The inheritance is eternal life in Heaven. (Matt25:34) We do not "possess" eternal life
now, as it is "reserved in Heaven for us". (1Pet1:4) We "HAVE" eternal life, in that we HAVE
JESUS. When we are IN CHRIST. Fellowship.

If "fellowship" is not salvation, then please interpret for me 1Jn1:3,6: "Our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. If we say we have fellowship with Him and yet
walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." Can we lie and not practice truth, but yet GO TO HEAVEN?

JESUS is our salvation, as the "propitiation for our sin". We believe, when we hear the Gospel
and are convicted by it. "For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation". (Rm10:10) JESUS-IN-YOU is the Mystery (Col1:27), the "hope that enters within the veil" (Heb6:19-20,1Tim1:1).

Evil works do not condemn us. Good works do not save us. Our hearts are either apart from God, and evil, or they are in fellowship with Him, and filled with Christ. While Jesus Himself said "Only those who DO the will of the Father shall inherit the kingdom of God" (Matt7:21), we understand that it is JESUS who does the deeds THROUGH us. "Therefore WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose." (Php2:12-13) The works we do are but the consequence of JESUS-IN-US.

Above I have just shared the tennets of my faith. My faith, created by hearing the Gospel, strengthened by reading the Bible. Yet Mike believes that reading the Bible is insufficient for our faith. "It is too complex to understand, alone." Us-who-are-OSNAS, even given the cited Scripture references, Mike calls "cultists, in the style of David Koresh". Where in the above tennets is "cultism"? Where is the Scriptural contradiction?

I do not believe the Bible is "too complex". I believe the Gospel is simple.

As for the above, I have no dispute with Ben.

No one that is, none of His can ABIDE in Him , nor can HE abide in any other than ALL those that the FATHER has given HIM; the fate of ALL those who ABIDE in HIM by faith is sealed.

God bless you, brother. When we ("OSAS" and "OSNAS") agree on the foundations of
salvation, IE being "IN CHRIST", then the debate over "abiding/not-abiding" pales towards
insignificance.

But in a nut shell, this teaching in the area of God's revelation to man
declares that the final authority for faith and practice is not the Bible.

Catholics do not believe the Bible is the “final authority”. They accept “subsequent apostolic revelations”. But they admit, that what is IN the Bible, is TRUE. On this we have commonality. If us-in-the-Protestant world could have such agreement BETWEEN us, imagine the ground we would cover!

The BIBLE is the WORD OF GOD. If the Bible says it, I believe it!

This is the reason why, verses are taken by themselves to try and prove certain positions, instead of using the entire WORD of God as the measuring stick to see whether the position is Biblical in the light of ALL Scripture.

Touche’!

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God; every spirit that confesses Jesus has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God...

 

[Lion Heart]

By the way, Iam

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
Hi Lion Heart,

I have a hard time following your train of thought, but I think we, in the main, agree. We're both OSAS, totally God given grace to faith unto salvation. I think we have a mild disagreement on the degree of difference between abiding and salvation, but perhaps not, as I can't make out your position. I have said repeatedly that abiding in Christ cannot take place until salvation has taken place, but that salvation and abiding aren't the same thing. I think you agree with that.

As for the "Salvation is a process", which I disagree with unless an instantaneous process is indicated, which I would call an "event" rather than a process - I went back through this dreadfully long thread. isshinwhat is the person who made the statement, after which you mistook me for saying that.

God bless you,
In Christ,

Jr,


I don't disagree with anything you said here, abidng is more closer associated with sanctification, which in itself would be setting apart for the indwelling fo the Holy Spirit,


1 John 5
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


If you have eternal life, its eternal, and in this present life.

If you don't believe salvation is instantaneous, and eternal, then in reality you believe what Ben is expounding, here.


By the way I do not subscribe to Calvinism or any other position, on this matter, I just happen to side with Calvin on the Doctrine of Election, on this one point.

Unconditional election, merely means their are no conditions God has set in bring his word to fruition in the elect.


Neither do I subscribe to the idea that there might be various other kinds of election of God unto eternal life: the first general and indefinite, the other particular and definite; and that the latter in turn is either incomplete, revocable, non-decisive and conditional, or complete, irrevocable, decisive and absolute. Likewise: that there is one election unto faith, and another unto salvation, so that election can be unto justifying faith, without being a decisive election unto salvation. For this is a fancy of men's minds , invented regardless of the Scriptures, whereby the doctrine of election is corrupted, and this golden chain of our salvation is broken:

Rom 8
30 "And whom he foreordained, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified ,"

Eph 2
5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) ;
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"


Thus says the Lord consider your ways;



His Word is Truth.


RICHARD

 

[Ben johnson]

If you don't believe salvation is instantaneous, and eternal, then in reality you believe what Ben is expounding, here.

But Ben is expounding that salvation is instantaneous. The only question here, is, "is salvation ETERNAL?" I hvae posted MANY Scriptures saying it can be---and it can be not. Please ignore Ben, and deal with the Scriptures...

(Why am I suddenly reminded of a little Yorkshire Terrier pulling a curtain, and the image says: "IGNORE the man behind the curtain...")

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Please ignore Ben, and deal with the Scriptures...

Sorry Ben,


Since your willing to put it that way, I agree, we can leave Gods business to His Word that what is settled in heaven may be settled in the minds and hearts of men, as they put their faith in His written Word, that we;

Eph 3
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us ,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Thanks for the excercise,



God bless you in the reading and studying of his precious word.


RICHARD

 

[Ben johnson]

Again as much earlier in the thread, we are positionally sinless because of Christ's imputed righteousness upon the believer, but still sinners in practical terms in that the Old-sin-nature still sins. In the words of the Master, "The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak."

I don't think the concept of "imputing righteousness" is tantamount to simply "painting whitewash with a wide brush over our sinfulness". In my understanding of salvation, we are "a new creation". The "old nature" there still to be sure (but dead), but we, generally (as a practice) walking in the Spirit. I keep returning to passages as Rom6:1 "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? MAY IT NEVER BE! How shall we, who have DIED to sin, still LIVE IN it!" I think, in my opinion, that when we receive Jesus, rendering our hearts to HIS control, that righteousness becomes our guide. I believe that he who is righteous, does not walk in sin...

(Good Scripture, Richard!)

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Richard,

It also seems to me that you are OSAS. That means that although as Ben says that salvation is abiding with Christ, that it is also more than that as well.
Faith, as defined in hebrews 11:1 has as a part of it: hope.
Our hope is in the fulfillment of a promise. and as hebrews tells us in another place, our new hope is built on a better promises. The promise is life eternal. The promise is escape from deserved judgment. The promise is a relationship forever with God. The promise is that our sins will never count against us. David says, as quoted by Paul in Romans, that blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will NEVER count against him. Only those forever saved will never have their sin count against them. That is the promise of the Lord we submit to. We trust in Him by believing what He promises, He is able to do. And because we do trust, we live out that trust in our lives, by our actions and thought processes.

But, if we are not going to heaven, then the promise

[which by nature is not a NOW thing but a LATER thing, for we wait eagerly for the redemption of our bodies. For in that hope we were saved. And hope that is is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?Romans 8]

is voided and our faith was shown to be without merit for who we believed would deliver failed to deliver. But God forbid that Jesus would be found a liar. If one truly trusts in Jesus for eternal life, who can make the Lord renege on His promise.

But that is what OSNAS says that he does. Oh not directly, nor do they think like that at all. But in reality that is the message they do deliver. You see they make promise of eternal life NOT contingent on Jesus alone. They make the promise and the hope [and therefore the faith]we have NOW contingent on the future acts and choices [in short: the future will] of each person. That in affect places their future contingent on themselves [and by force not only on Jesus] In order to boast they are going to heaven, they have to trust themselves that they themselves will deliver themselves [with help from the Lord of course].

you wrote:

quote:
On page 44, Jrmorgan cried foul. Why? Because Ben goes beyond what is written, writting in his own beliefs and then giving a scripture reference as if that proves it.

mike



As for the above, I have no dispute with Ben.

Noone that is, none of His can ABIDE in Him , nor can HE abide in any other than ALL those that the FATHER has given HIM; the fate of ALL those who ABIDE in HIM by faith is sealed.
And of course I agree with you here, but the thrust Ben is using is to deny the very thing you here affirm.

In His love,
mike

 

[mjwhite]

Ben,

because you are behind the curtain pulling the switches [hitting the keys].

you said:
quote:
If you don't believe salvation is instantaneous, and eternal, then in reality you believe what Ben is expounding, here.
But Ben is expounding that salvation is instantaneous. The only question here, is, "is salvation ETERNAL?" I hvae posted MANY Scriptures saying it can be---and it can be not. Please ignore Ben, and deal with the Scriptures...

(Why am I suddenly reminded of a little Yorkshire Terrier pulling a curtain, and the image says: "IGNORE the man behind the curtain...")

Ben, being saved is salvation and salvation is eternal life. Do you simply ignore Romans 6:23? Fill it in for salvation/being saved in Eph 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have recieved eternal life, through faith -and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.

By failing to recognize this simple truth, you skewer your interps of other scriptures so related.

mike

 

[mjwhite]

Ben,

you are quite mistaken.
you said:
Above I have just shared the tennets of my faith. My faith, created by hearing the Gospel, strengthened by reading the Bible. Yet Mike believes that reading the Bible is insufficient for our faith. "It is too complex to understand, alone." Us-who-are-OSNAS, even given the cited Scripture references, Mike calls "cultists, in the style of David Koresh". Where in the above tennets is "cultism"? Where is the Scriptural contradiction?

I did not call you a cultist in th style of david koresh. I simply used koresh as example of those who read the bible and get the wrong message from it. Why does your reading that salvation isn't the same as eternal life differ from 2000 years of Christian theology?

The point, I repeat myself for clarity, is that you assume things I not believe, have not said, and have not given you any reason to think. You misintepret my words. I never said that reading the bible was insufficient for our faith. Part of reading the Bible is obeying it. Part of obeying it is the responsibility to be a part of a wider community [the body of believers]by learning from them and by serving them. When your beliefs differ so radically from established beliefs it should give you pause. After all, you don't like the doctrine that people have that says all they have to do is believe, and no lifesyle change is necessary, do you? But they could say, even as you are, that their interpretation comes straight from the Bible and that is all God wants. The church has struggled, some even gave their lives, to bring us many doctrines we have today. Were they perfect in all their beliefs? No, but to discount such truths is wrong, imprudent and divisive.

It is also wrong to slander me by misinterpreting what I say. Are you having trouble understanding me? Or are you simply being divisive? The plain reading of what I said doesn't say you are any type of cultist. If you took it that way, you did it on your own. If you interpret scripture as badly as you do my words, then I see your problem. But that can be overcome by humbling yourself and allowing 2000 years of church doctrine to influence somewhat your understanding of scripture. Try it.

mike

 

[mjwhite]

Ben,

you said.
you said:
Above I have just shared the tennets of my faith. My faith, created by hearing the Gospel, strengthened by reading the Bible. Yet Mike believes that reading the Bible is insufficient for our faith. "It is too complex to understand, alone." Us-who-are-OSNAS, even given the cited Scripture references, Mike calls "cultists, in the style of David Koresh". Where in the above tennets is "cultism"? Where is the Scriptural contradiction?

Is this a quote from me: "It is too complex to understand, alone." From reading it in the context you put it in, it would seem to be.

BUT IT ISN'T A QUOTE FROM ME.
I never said that. It is wrong and sinful for you to put words in my mouth. You are responsible for the context and content of your writings. Every word is to be judged.

Who said it, since I didn't? No one? Are you quoting no one exactly? Then your words are a sham. You fail basic decentcy. That is no HONEST way for a child of God to act and debate.

mike

 

[mjwhite]

Ben,
you said.
quote:
He claims the free gift is NOT eternal life but a provision for it. I showed him Romans 6:23.
"The wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life". "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who HAS THE SON has the life, he who does not have the Son has not the life. I write this that you can KNOW you have eternal life." Rom6:23, 1Jn5:11-13

Our problem has never been Hell. Our problem has, since Adam, been sin. Jesus Himself is the propitiation for our sins. (1Jn2:2) But not for US ALONE (the saved), but for the WORLD (the rest who might be saved)" (1Jn2:2). In being saved from our sin, we are consequentially saved from Hell...

Two things at least. One, what do we need saved from hell for IF as you say, HELL was never our problem? Seems like if we need saved from it then it is our worst problem.

Second, If you say you have been saved from your sin and consequently saved from Hell, how is it you say you still might go there? It seems that if you still might go there, you haven't yet been saved from going there. Therefore your statment contrdicts OSNAS. Make up your mind.

mike

 

[Ben johnson]

Second, If you say you have been saved from your sin and consequently saved from Hell, how is it you say you still might go there? It seems that if you still might go there, you haven't yet been saved from going there. Therefore your statment contrdicts OSNAS. Make up your mind.

You answered that yourself, Mike. If one truly trusts in Jesus for eternal life, who can make the Lord renege on His promise. No one can. IF one truly trusts in Jesus for eternal life. Pair this with what Paul says in Col1:22-23, "present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from Jesus". OSAS interprets this passage to "rhetorical-hypothetical-he-didn't-really-MEAN-you-can-be-moved-from-faith!"

The thing you cannot accept, Mike, is the fact of man's will. OSAS people either deny man's will exists (total depravity, "he's so lost he cannot even THINK of Christ, and never HAS enough will to DISBELIEVE if he indeed BECOMES saved), or mis-interprets God's SOVEREIGNTY. "Well, if it's God's WILL that all be saved, then why AREN'T they?" I believe God honors a man's will. There is no one forced toward God, and no one forced away. If one "truly puts his trust in Jesus for eternal life", then he is saved eternally. Does he then lose his will to "PUT his trust IN Jesus"?

I never said that. It is wrong and sinful for you to put words in my mouth.

Mike, I respond to many people on many threads, on several message boards. Not always, when I say "you", do I mean "you-personally". Sometimes I mean "you-in-general". Some of you (meaning "OSAS" believers) hold to "carnal-Christian", who either believe that the most decadent-practining-sinners (fornicaters, drunkards, revilers) will still go to Heaven, because "salvation is RELATIONSHIP but not FELLOWSHIP with Christ". Whatever that means. Some hold to "irresistable grace", that GOd will save SOME in SPITE of themselves, and THOSE can never LEAVE. Because "Well, he's SOVEREIGN, ain't He?" If I came across here as "misrepresenting you", personally, then of course I am sorry.

No one, that is, none of His can ABIDE in Him , nor can HE abide in any other than ALL those that the FATHER has given HIM; the fate of ALL those who ABIDE in HIM by faith is sealed. And of course I agree with you here, but the thrust Ben is using is to deny the very thing you here affirm.

We all seem to agree on everything but the "sealed" thing. In Eph4:30 is says "...the Holy SPirit, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" The Greek for the word, "FOR", is "EIS". WHich is clearly "unto", not "until". In Eph1:13 it says that we were "Sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His own glory". Our inheritance, eternal life, is a promise, a pledge from God. But that promise, is based on our belief. Eph1:13 says we LISTENED, we BELIEVED and THEN we were sealed with the Holy SPirit. Eph4:30 says "do not grieve the Holy Spirit..." I ask, if we DO grieve Him, will the seal remain? You say yes, I say no. The seal is not UNTIL the day of redemption, it is UNTO.

I never said that reading the bible was insufficient for our faith. Is this a quote from me: "It is too complex to understand, alone." I never said that.

In essence, yes you did. What you SAID, was that I have not sufficient grasp of Scripture to go against 2000 years of Christian theology. Well, I can cite certain denominations that say "you must be WATER BAPTIZED or you are NOT SAVED". Some of the newer cults (like Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons) have heretical doctrine, which they supposedly took from the Bible. Do you know, that when I speak with one of them, I use the BIBLE to demonstrate their error? There are things in the Bible stated boldly, that do not require a degree in theology to understand. Most of them in fact. If they are secondary, such as "pre/midst/post-Trib", we have fun in discussing, but do not "come to blows". But if they are primary, such as "you are saved by WORKS", then our discussions become a little sterner. But always loving.

But they could say, even as you are, that their interpretation comes straight from the Bible and that is all God wants. The church has struggled, some even gave their lives, to bring us many doctrines we have today. Were they perfect in all their beliefs? No, but to discount such truths is wrong, imprudent and divisive.

But sometimes it is necessary. If you saw a friend sleeping on a railroad track, and the 5:40 express was approaching, would you tell him? So too are we to deal with our brothers, who think (no, Mike, I am not referencing YOU PERSONALLY here) that they can simply "say the sinner's prayer and then go buy a bottle of schnapps and get 'plastered'". We must tell them before the train arrives.

Some Mormons have also given their lives for their beliefs. Yet they believe "Jesus was a MAN, who had a BEGINNING; Jesus was NOT God, He was NOT resurrected, and salvation is by WORKS." Should I consider THESE beliefs, or should I stand on the Bible?

In debating the "OSAS" issue, what I am really contending for, is the nature of salvation. I believe it is written in the Bible, clearly enough, to be understood. By all. In post #442 I posted many of the Scriptures that form the foundation of my faith. INCLUDING the one you reffed, "But the GIFT of God is eternal life". And that GIFT, is JESUS. God has given us JESUS. I ask again, if salvation is NOT "fellowship with/in/through Jesus", then what is it?

 

[Lion Heart]

mj,

The JUST shall live by faith.

The hope you quote is based on "two immutable things" of God. His Word (promises), sealed by an oath.

Therefore, this is the reason why "ALL" who are spoken of in Heb 11, died in this HOPE, and they never having received the promise, that we have attained; The SPIRIT OF GOD.

We have the Spirit of God which dwells within us and witnesses to our spirit that we are children of God, which is the anchor of our soul firm and secure. It enters into the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus who went before us has entered in for our behalf.
(Heb 6:18-20)

So, your right, if you have that Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead within you, why hope, for what you already have;

"Therefore, let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands , the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement." (Heb 6:1)


2 Cor 4
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the EXCELLENCY of the power may be of God, AND NOT IN US.


Blessings,


RICHARD

 

[mjwhite]

Ben,
you.quote:
I never said that. It is wrong and sinful for you to put words in my mouth.
Mike, I respond to many people on many threads, on several message boards. Not always, when I say "you", do I mean "you-personally". Sometimes I mean "you-in-general". Some of you (meaning "OSAS" believers) hold to "carnal-Christian", who either believe that the most decadent-practining-sinners (fornicaters, drunkards, revilers) will still go to Heaven, because "salvation is RELATIONSHIP but not FELLOWSHIP with Christ". Whatever that means. Some hold to "irresistable grace", that GOd will save SOME in SPITE of themselves, and THOSE can never LEAVE. Because "Well, he's SOVEREIGN, ain't He?" If I came across here as "misrepresenting you", personally, then of course I am sorry.

Some OSNAS people believe things you may not believe. Would you mind if I acccredited their beliefs to you? Ben says that unless women keep their hair and dresses long they will go to hell. Or one drink of alcohol makes you a drunkard nd unfit for the kingdom/ You wouldn't mind Ben if I attribute these ideas as yours would you? Imean its not personal, but that is what some OSNAS people believe and so there isn't anything wrong with just responding to you with these ideas? In fact, many OSNAS people actually believe in works salvation. It is no problem then Ben, that in every post, I accuse you of espousing that doctrine, is it? And if you object to such defamation, then I will offer an apology for coming across as 'misrepresenting you'.

Or maybe attributing others quotes as your beliefs is irresponsible? You don't eevn seem to know for sure if you did so: If I came across here as "misrepresenting you", personally, then of course I am sorry. Despite my claim, and despite your ability to actually verify whether or not you had acted irresponsible, you simply say well 'if' I did, then I'm sorry. Pretty insincere Ben.

Honest debate includes listening to the other, not just attacking a group of ideas you THINK he might have. Your acts and apology are dishonest.

Here is another example of your prideful arrogance where you simply assume things without cause: The thing you cannot accept, Mike, is the fact of man's will. OSAS people either deny man's will exists (total depravity, "he's so lost he cannot even THINK of Christ, and never HAS enough will to DISBELIEVE if he indeed BECOMES saved), or mis-interprets God's SOVEREIGNTY. "Well, if it's God's WILL that all be saved, then why AREN'T they?" I believe God honors a man's will. There is no one forced toward God, and no one forced away. If one "truly puts his trust in Jesus for eternal life", then he is saved eternally. Does he then lose his will to "PUT his trust IN Jesus"?

Again you build a straw man argument by saying things about me you have no knowledge of just because you think all OSAS think tyhe same way. Ben you are being irresponsible in thinking this way. Besides your argument doesn't even sense. You make illogical assumptions and your conclusions don't rest on your flimsy premises. By attributing such an argument to me is irresponsible, and lumping all OSAS in that boat is also irresponsible since NONE i have come across fail to believe in the free will of man.

You are offensive and your actions are not christian. If you are going to debate individuals, TREAT them as individuals. If that is too time consuming for you, then limit your 'contacts' to a number you can PROPERLY handle in a fair and Christlike way.

more later.

mike

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Richard,

Excuse me, but I didn't say 'why hope' as if we already have what we hope for.
Rather i said what we hope for we have not.

Prove to me you are a prince of the eternal kingdom of God? I dare say you cannot prove it to anyone except by your own subjective testimony. That doesn't prove anything. Do you still sin? yes, then that is evidence against your claim. Do you still have aches and pains, the foreshadowing of death that awaits? Yes? Again that stands against your boast.

But my brother what you do have is a hope to be like Christ [to be like Him when you see Him as He is], to recieve immortatility [has your mortal put the immortal yet?. Icor 15:19 tells us if in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. For our HOPE is in Christ in the life to come, our HOPE is in a redeemed body we have not yet recieved, our HOPE is in redemption at the judgment to come. We walk now by FAITH not seeing yet what we believe will be made known to all, our sonship in His kingdom. It is only by FAITH we now claim eternal life, for though we may have it now we cannot even prove it to ourselves OUTSIDE of our faith. For faith is the essence of things unseen, the substance of things hoped for. The fact that this covenant is established on promises shows that our hope is in the realized fulfillment of these promises, and since we have that hope we walk not by sight but by faith, that trust and belief that God is able to do as He promises.

Faith without hope is empty. But we believe He will deliver us and so we trust Him as shown by our walk.

Faith that is simply in the NOW is self delusional, for it is not faith in Jesus alone, for it depends on man to help deliver himself and so it rests not on Christ alone, but on the persons themselves as well.

In his love,
mike

 

[mjwhite]

Ben,
you.
quote:
No one, that is, none of His can ABIDE in Him , nor can HE abide in any other than ALL those that the FATHER has given HIM; the fate of ALL those who ABIDE in HIM by faith is sealed. And of course I agree with you here, but the thrust Ben is using is to deny the very thing you here affirm.
We all seem to agree on everything but the "sealed" thing. In Eph4:30 is says "...the Holy SPirit, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" The Greek for the word, "FOR", is "EIS". WHich is clearly "unto", not "until". In Eph1:13 it says that we were "Sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His own glory". Our inheritance, eternal life, is a promise, a pledge from God. But that promise, is based on our belief. Eph1:13 says we LISTENED, we BELIEVED and THEN we were sealed with the Holy SPirit. Eph4:30 says "do not grieve the Holy Spirit..." I ask, if we DO grieve Him, will the seal remain? You say yes, I say no. The seal is not UNTIL the day of redemption, it is UNTO.

First, whether it is translated untill or unto the meaning doesn't change. We are sealed unto or untill the day of redemption.
2nd, you Eph4:30 says "do not grieve the Holy Spirit..." I ask, if we DO grieve Him, will the seal remain? You say yes, I say no. The seal is not UNTIL the day of redemption, it is UNTO. You only say no because you think the seal can be broken, while I say yes it will remain because I believe in OSAS. The verse itself rpomotes neither.

3rd,you said: But that promise, is based on our belief. Eph1:13 says we LISTENED, we BELIEVED and THEN we were sealed with the Holy SPirit.
I understand what you are saying, but the very fact you make the fulfillment of the promise contingent on your future acts and choices invalidates that the faith you proclaim now is in Jesus alone to fulfill the promises since yoy also claim He cannot fulfill the promises unless you do something right every day the rst of your life.

Now don't assume anything. If you don't know what I am talking about, or think I missed something, ask about it or comment directly on it. I would like to engage you with some meaningful dialogue.

you.
quote:
Second, If you say you have been saved from your sin and consequently saved from Hell, how is it you say you still might go there? It seems that if you still might go there, you haven't yet been saved from going there. Therefore your statment contrdicts OSNAS. Make up your mind.
You answered that yourself, Mike. If one truly trusts in Jesus for eternal life, who can make the Lord renege on His promise. No one can. IF one truly trusts in Jesus for eternal life. Pair this with what Paul says in Col1:22-23, "present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from Jesus". OSAS interprets this passage to "rhetorical-hypothetical-he-didn't-really-MEAN-you-can-be-moved-from-faith!"


1st I do not interpret this passage that way at all. I as I have told you before, [ru listening?] this is not an if/then doctrinal statement like you suppose. Rather it is a doctrinal statement like this: Those who will endure to the end are those who are NOW reconciled.

2nd it seems to me that when you say 'truly believes' you mean 'believes to the end'. But you are being misleading when you speak so carelessly. Truly and unto the end are not synonyms. You may take them as meaning the same thing in your doctrinal system, but that is an idiosyncrysny of yours. Don't project your interpretations as if they were dictionary synonyms.

If you RIGHT NOW truly believe that God WILL at judgment deliver you based on your faith as of right now then you are OSAS. But you do not believe that. Since you think your faith is dependent on you, then your hope of heaven is also based on trust in you since you make heaven gaining conditional on your maintaining. Your faith NOW is only good if you die NOW, otherwise it is subject to loss and with it loss of heaven.

That renders your whole unchristian stance that Jesus as eternal life being something we can gain and lose as if He were subject to our wills and not we subject to His will as Lord and master. When one TRULY believes and has faith and trust in Jesus, they surrender their will to Him. They lose [by self agreement] themselves in Him. He becomes the HEAD and they become part of His body.

Have you surrendered your will your Him?

Likewise, you have failed to answer my earlier question on how the rulers and the Jews could FREELY surrender jesus up to be crucified EXACTLY as God's predetermined will had decided. Acts 4:27-28. If God's will and power can predetermine what man will freely do, then your 'freewill' argument has no legs on which to stand. Deal with it.

mike

 

[mjwhite]

Ben,

you.
quote:
I never said that reading the bible was insufficient for our faith. Is this a quote from me: "It is too complex to understand, alone." I never said that.
In essence, yes you did. What you SAID, was that I have not sufficient grasp of Scripture to go against 2000 years of Christian theology. Well, I can cite certain denominations that say "you must be WATER BAPTIZED or you are NOT SAVED". Some of the newer cults (like Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons) have heretical doctrine, which they supposedly took from the Bible. Do you know, that when I speak with one of them, I use the BIBLE to demonstrate their error? There are things in the Bible stated boldly, that do not require a degree in theology to understand. Most of them in fact. If they are secondary, such as "pre/midst/post-Trib", we have fun in discussing, but do not "come to blows". But if they are primary, such as "you are saved by WORKS", then our discussions become a little sterner. But always loving.

Ben, you still miss the point. Do you think what the Bible says SO PLAINLY should negate many 100's of years of internal struggle to work these ideas out? You come along and pick up one side of a many faceted position and simply declare that YOU NOW have it right and IT IS SO CLEAR that our forefathers were all so wrong on that subject? Arrogant, prideful, and immature are you when you follow that path. So whem your definitions of words and/or phrases are way out of line, I will reject such babblings.

you.quote:
But they could say, even as you are, that their interpretation comes straight from the Bible and that is all God wants. The church has struggled, some even gave their lives, to bring us many doctrines we have today. Were they perfect in all their beliefs? No, but to discount such truths is wrong, imprudent and divisive.
But sometimes it is necessary. If you saw a friend sleeping on a railroad track, and the 5:40 express was approaching, would you tell him? So too are we to deal with our brothers, who think (no, Mike, I am not referencing YOU PERSONALLY here) that they can simply "say the sinner's prayer and then go buy a bottle of schnapps and get 'plastered'". We must tell them before the train arrives.

Some Mormons have also given their lives for their beliefs. Yet they believe "Jesus was a MAN, who had a BEGINNING; Jesus was NOT God, He was NOT resurrected, and salvation is by WORKS." Should I consider THESE beliefs, or should I stand on the Bible?


But we are not talking about Mormons or JW's ben. We are talking about our forefathers in the faith. The faith they passed on down to us. The 'Oneness' movement denies the trinity. They reject what the forefathers passed down to us. What do you think of that?

you.
In debating the "OSAS" issue, what I am really contending for, is the nature of salvation. I believe it is written in the Bible, clearly enough, to be understood. By all. In post #442 I posted many of the Scriptures that form the foundation of my faith. INCLUDING the one you reffed, "But the GIFT of God is eternal life". And that GIFT, is JESUS. God has given us JESUS. I ask again, if salvation is NOT "fellowship with/in/through Jesus", then what is it?

God hasn't given us Jesus. God has given us to Jesus. We are His sheep. He is our Lord and master. And though salvation IS fellowsip with and in and through Jesus, it is also being saved from Hell, it is also life eternal, it is also escape from our deserved judgment, escape from His wrath. When in John 3, The Word speaks of God giving Jesus, it means He gave Him up to die. He gave Jesus over to death that we might be given everlasting life. Your defintions skewer your doctrine.

Do you know what it means to BOAST only in Jesus, or to BOAST only in the cross of our Lord? Please tell.

mike

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear Richard,

Excuse me, but I didn't say 'why hope' as if we already have what we hope for.
Rather i said what we hope for we have not.

Prove to me you are a prince of the eternal kingdom of God? I dare say you cannot prove it to anyone except by your own subjective testimony. That doesn't prove anything. Do you still sin? yes, then that is evidence against your claim. Do you still have aches and pains, the foreshadowing of death that awaits? Yes? Again that stands against your boast.

But my brother what you do have is a hope to be like Christ [to be like Him when you see Him as He is], to recieve immortatility [has your mortal put the immortal yet?. Icor 15:19 tells us if in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. For our HOPE is in Christ in the life to come, our HOPE is in a redeemed body we have not yet recieved, our HOPE is in redemption at the judgment to come. We walk now by FAITH not seeing yet what we believe will be made known to all, our sonship in His kingdom. It is only by FAITH we now claim eternal life, for though we may have it now we cannot even prove it to ourselves OUTSIDE of our faith. For faith is the essence of things unseen, the substance of things hoped for. The fact that this covenant is established on promises shows that our hope is in the realized fulfillment of these promises, and since we have that hope we walk not by sight but by faith, that trust and belief that God is able to do as He promises.

Faith without hope is empty. But we believe He will deliver us and so we trust Him as shown by our walk.

Faith that is simply in the NOW is self delusional, for it is not faith in Jesus alone, for it depends on man to help deliver himself and so it rests not on Christ alone, but on the persons themselves as well.

In his love,
mike

mj and Ben,

It matters nothing to me, whether you believe my testimony concerning my faith in the Lord.

Forgiveness of Sin and Salvation is a personal matter, between each man and The God of heaven and earth, and whether one believes anothers testimony or not, it won't change the reality of it one way or the other.

You have heard my testimony (and others who have given theirs), and give God all the glory for his mercy, kinds and longsuffering towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for those of us who trust him in all things.


The more you keep talking the more you both sound like you are in agrrement, in this area of "working out your own salvation".

If you want to put yourself under bondage to the keeping of the Law, you are perfectly, able and free to do so, afterall you are not my servants.

The faith God has given me, allows me the freedom to proclaim, his Grace that sets men free from the law, that the whole world believes that it is posible that by the keeping of the law they are able to earn their salvation.

I believe the promises of God and have accepted them by faith, and I KNOW I am free, from having to work to keep what I was never able to keep in the first place.

Who am I to Judge you, you have one who judges you.


If both of really believe you must keep the law perfectly to earn your salvation, you contradict God's own promises.

He sent his son to set mankinf free from the "law if sin and death"

Rom 4
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Believe GOD.. why dwell on whether you can or can't, the fact is you can't of yourself.

so,

Why hobble yourselves, when you can run free.





Blessings as you continue seeking HIM.


RICHARD

 

[prodigal]

You guys need to stop beating each other over the head with Bible verses. That is not what they were designed for. And I do not think that Jesus would walk around saying "Once saved, always saved!". That kind of thinking leads to a life of unproductiveness, and we know what happens to the field that does not produce a crop, right? So instead of trying to turn the other person to "your" way of thinking, let's ask God to continue to lead us into all truth and pray for a productive crop. The fields are white for harvest, let's get out there!

 

[Ben johnson]

You guys need to stop beating each other over the head with Bible verses. That is not what they were designed for.

Hello, Prodigal. Thanx for your input. Paul warns us against "engaging in disputes, factions and dissensions, which are fruits of the flesh" (unsaved). Yet Jude admonishes us to "earnestly contend for the faith". As does Paul, "show yourself in all things to be a good example of good deeds, with purity of doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent ...may have nothing bad to say about you." (Jd3,Titus2:7-9).

It is the greatest desire of my heart that I not "beat people over their heads with verses". In all of these pages, I have been torn between fear of "useless arguing" and "edifying contending for the faith". Take this quote, with Richard's permission:

If you want to put yourself under bondage to the keeping of the Law, you are perfectly, able and free to do so, afterall you are not my servants. If both of really believe you must keep the law perfectly to earn your salvation, you contradict God's own promises.

In all 46 pages, I do not think I have seen ANYONE here contend that "salvation is by works". I, myself, seek to present the Gospel. And, as I understand it, the most profound aspect of our salvation, its substance and essence, is FELLOWSHIP with/through/in JESUS. THAT is my entire motivation.

Some of the "OSAS" people say that "you can remain in sin, and STILL BE SAVED". Some say "God will NEVER let you leave". From what I know of Scripture, I really believe, that to remain silent, will cost someone eternit. Maybe I do not "convince" anone who has posted here---but this is a public message board, and for every one who POSTS, there are DOZENS who READ.

Now, you said:

I do not think that Jesus would walk around saying "Once saved, always saved!". That kind of thinking leads to a life of unproductiveness, and we know what happens to the field that does not produce a crop, right?

This is my exact concern. I see quote-unquote "Christians", who go to church, sing and worship God on Sunday, but then go about their lives the other six days NEVER EVEN THINKING OF GOD. If salvation is FELLOWSHIP, then where is the COMMUNICATION? The mutual LOVE? The COMMUNION? The "greatest commandment" is to LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, MIND and SOUL. But if salvation is "mere belief", without the "heart-change", where is the commitment? Where is the substance? Where is the, ALL?!

In these discussions, I have been presented with many opportunities for pride and anger---but that is not what I am. I received a private message with these words: You are what I would call a Bible blockhead, everlearning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. You're a shame to the Body of Christ, if you are in it or think you have fallen out. You have gone in circles like a campbellite water dog. You believe just like a roman catholic. You have never posted an edifying post that I have seen. Did I "report" that message? CERTAINLY NOT! How did I feel about it? I was GLAD! If anyone has a complaint with me, TELL ME! I WELCOME it! Far better to confront me, than to hide your feelings and let them simmer. This is the heart of love, this is the substance of fellowship!

Productive is what I want to be! Productive is what I want YOU to be!

So instead of trying to turn the other person to "your" way of thinking, let's ask God to continue to lead us into all truth and pray for a productive crop.

[/quote]You have opened the door to my heart---and simply read what is written there.
This is my song:
"Oh, Lord, I praise You above all, I worship You, and lift You highest---for You ARE highest! Let my LIFE be a prayer to You, in everything I say, in everything I do!

THe fields are white, the harvesters few!

LET ME BE ONE OF THE FEW!!!"

My "little secret", is I believe in FOREVER! And I want to walk, hand in hand, with EACH OF YOU, through those very gates of eternity! To dwell in the presence of the Lord FOREVER!

To HIM be the glory and the power and the praise and the worship FOREVER!!!!!



PS: We have, here and in all of our discussions, even in disagreement, conversed in LOVE. Another desire of mine, is that when people see US, and see how we treat each other, that they will see Him in us, and will want Jesus TOO!!!