Ben,
you,
The reason you cannot understand is because you want it to read favorably to your position. Or because I simply read different in the Word...
Could someone, a false professor of the faith, get baptized presumably as a believer, and presumably as in obedience to Jesus... Can someone partake of the HOLY SPIRIT and not be saved? I say "NO", you say "YES". You believe the Holy Spirit will indwell one-who-is-unsaved...
me.
Did you look up those definitions in a Bible dictionary? Do you have any evidence to show why you go so far astray from almost 2000 years of Christian doctrine? Is your only defense "I simply read different in the Word..."
Do you know what a straw man argument is? You have no integrity when you ascribe to me a position I never took. I never said that someone who partook of the Holy Spirit wasn't saved or that the Spirit indwelt someone who wasn't saved.
Why would you jump to such false conclusions? Would you want someone to say that about you? No/ Then you should repent of that sin.
you.
You knee-jerk into the "OLD-CATCH-22"---well, if they ARE unsaved NOW, then they were NEVER SAVED to beGIN with". But verses as: "Brethren, if any of you", "Watch YOURSELVES", "ELDERS! BEWARE your adversary the devil, who stalks the world as a roaring lion SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR", "Partakers of the Holy Spirit", "truly-escaped-defilements-by-the-TRUE-knowledge-of-the-LORD-and-SAVIOR-JESUS", and "some will FALL FROM THE FAITH", "you have been SEVERED from CHRIST, you have FALLEN from GRACE", "KEEP the faith, which some have REJECTED and suffered SHIPWRECK in regard to their faith", these and many more, you cannot receive, so deeply entrenched is "OSAS" in you. "THEY WERE NEVER SAVED! they HAD the Holy Spirit but were UNSAVED! MAYBE they never became UNSAVED! They suffered SHIPWRECK but were ABSOLUTELY STILL SAVED!" If the Bible doesn't convince you, how can I?
me.
Hello Ben. Have you been listening to me? I accuse you of being unable to discern what the Word is saying in part because you have many bad definitions of key words or phrases. You appeal to a bunch of verses where you continue in your perverted definitions and just lump them together as if piling on bad apples ontop of bad apples can make good apples.
Each verse you have brought up so far, I have shown you your error. I have asked you to reconcile your bad definitions with how Christians have defined these words and phrases since the beginning. Start there Ben.
you.
Sure. Give up the idea that salvation can be lost by things you DO or DON'T DO. To "give-up" something, one first must HAVE it. We (OSNAS) have NEVER had the view that DO's save or condemn. No matter how many times we say, we still hear "BUT SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS!" That's true, it's not. It's by JESUS-IN-YOU. Which CAUSES the works ("you will know them by their fruits"---did Jesus mean it or not?). If receiving Jesus was NOT a work, then later rejecting Jesus is NOT a work. Clearer now?
me.
Look up what salvation means ben. Your definition is incomplete. How can we discuss salvation if your definition is inadequate? But as to salvation by works, as much as you seek to deny it, in every post you reaffirm it. Words like "One must be diligent," or Thinking that 2nd Peter 1:4-12 means "if we don't DO these things we won't get into heaven." Your whole theology is simply this: God has a part, and man has a part and man fails to DO his part he will perish.Hence works salvation.
you.
They CAN mean the same thing only if you pervert their true meanings.
In Col3:24 the REWARD is the INHERITANCE. Argue with Paul, not me.
me.
Wrong again. It doesn't say that the reward IS the inheritance. It says that for SERVING the Lord [works] we will recieve rewards, rewards OF the inheritance. And not rewards IS the inheritance.
You misread Paul, you pervert Paul.
you.
You arbritarily assume that being deceived and losing salvation are one and the same. They are not.
But you believe that one can be DECEIVED BY SIN, return to WICKED LIFESTYLE, out of FELLOWSHIP THROUGH CHRIST, PTIAO-STUMBLED-WRETCHED!, BACKSLIDDEN, BUT ABSOLUTELY STILL SAVED!!! Is it me, or you who misunderstands salvation?
me.
First, you didn't deny my statement.
Second, that is a straw man argument. I never said any of that, nor implied it. You simply show your ignorance.
you.
As it plainly says, he is warning them of being decieved so that they might not lose what they have accomplished. They haven't accomplished eternal life. They were given eternal life.
they were given NOTHING, until they had the faith to RECEIVE IT. The FAITH is what has been "wrought", it is by FAITH they have been saved, and it is by FAITH they will REMAIN saved. If their faith/belief ENDS, then too will their salvation. "And though you have not seen Him, you love Him; and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with hoy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of YOUR faith the salvation of your souls" 1Pet1:9
Me.
What we wrought means what we worked for. If faith is a work [something we wrought] then salvation is by a work and not free. Your failed understanding of faith shows why you cannot understand the Word in these other passages. Faith is not a work, nor something we wrought, so salvation is a free gift. Again, if you had to wrought something to gain salvation it couldn't be free or a gift.
But [in your view] what they wrought to gain salvation isn't even salvation from Hell. You are quite decieved.
and again you prove that:
you.
Salvation is not the gift. The provision for salvation, GRACE, JESUS-ON-THE-CROSS, THAT is the gift. Salvation is RECEIVING the gift. THROUGH OUR FAITH. This is what Scripture says, this is what I believe...
me.
Scripture doesn't say that. The Church down through the ages has not said that. You are decieved.
you.
2nd Peter 1. As I have told you many times, Peter is telling us how to have an abundant entrance into the kingdom. It's not AN abundant entrance, it's THE EISODOS-GATE-ITSELF... He is not telling us how to stay saved. "For IN THIS WAY the GATE of Heaven WILL BE PROVIDED". Do you contend there is another way to the Gate of Heaven? (Is salvation (staying out of hell and going to heaven) ---salvation is NOT "staying out of Hell". Salvation is FELLOWSHIP THROUGH CHRIST, the propitiation for our SIN. Avoiding Hell is the CONSEQUENCE of our "having-been-saved-from-our-sins"...
me.
Sorry ben you have again perverted the Scriptures. They plainly say that it is an abundant entrance:
KJV- For so an entrance shall be minisistered unto you abundantly into the everlasting Kingdom...
NIV- and you will recieve a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord...
Greek- For so richly will be supplied to you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of the Lord...
you,
a free gift? If so, then why do we have to do all these things to GET our free gift? [2pet1:5-7] What do these things do for us? Verse 8 tells us that having these things will keep us from being barren or unproductive. Is salvation (as I define it) something we must produce? No! The reward of a productive person is the wage he recieves for his efforts. If Peter didn't mean that all these things WILL accompany the saved, they why did he say it? Peter is not talking about salvation, but rewards. Deal with that concept please. It is, really, impossible for me to "deal with that concept", when Peter very plainly says: "He who LACKS these qualities is blind and shortsighted and has FORGOTTEN his PURIFICATION from former sins". You say "either they WERE NEVER SAVED (and somehow were unsaved-but-PURIFIED-FROM-SINS), or they never FELL from salvation (and an impure un-fruited person is still SAVED)".
me.
So you are saying that we must Do stuff to stay saved? Works salvation. One way or the other Ben.
you.
This passage does NOT say that "these attributes save you"---it only says "These things WILL be yours IF you are saved. If they are NO LONGER yours, then you are NO LONGER saved." "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit. Therefore you will KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS." Jesus said it, I believe it!
me.
You can't even get your wrong scripture readings consistent. It never says you will have these things if you are saved, it commands us to ADD these things to our faith. Those who have failed to ADD these things are shortsighted, those who DO ADD these things will NOT BE UNPRODUCTIVE for Jesus and a rich welcome into heaven hey will recieve.
you.
What we have as the free gift is 'being saved' by grace through faith.
The free gift is the provision. It is God's grace. Undeserved, unearned. But salvation is by our faith, by which the PROVISION is RECEIVED. "For by grace through YOUR FAITH are you saved, and GRACE is not of yourselves, GRACE is the gift of God; GRACE IS not as a result of works lest anyone boast." GRACE-RECEIVED-IN-FAITH is NOT a work, no matter how many times it is called so...
me.
No Ben. look it up. Check the church's 2000 year understanding. The free gift is salvation.
Romans 6:23 tells us:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
hello ben, could it be plainer said then that. The free gift is eternal life, not just some provision for it. You have been decieved. wake up!!
you.
I suggest you skip the Greek and learn to use an English translation, or whatever your native tongue is. I sorry, I no speak English good please...
me.
I said whatever language your native tongue is. Do you always listen so badly?
you.
Why 'watch yourselves' is not talking about salvation, but rewards. You lose your rewards, or part of them because you walked in disobedience. Salvation is not based on our works, good or bad. Heaven is a free gift from God.
OK, then we leave your understanding as: "WATCH YOURSELVES, that you may not LOSE WHATEVER REWARDS you have in Heaven, for YOU can never be unsaved. But, now, if ONE-FROM-AMONG-YOU (but not YOU YOURSELVES of course) has GONE-TOO-FAR, well then he was never saved in the FIRST PLACE, because if he HAD been saved it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for him to have been deceived into falling"...
me.
basically correct. It is too bad you cannot understand that there is non-believers among every congregation. So that from among them one could not be a believer. John wouldn't write the letter "To the true believers and not to the unbelivers among you".
you.
Incredulous! The Pharisees did not believe because they had not believed.
You said "the Pharisees did not believe (in Christ) because they were not His sheep (not CHOSEN-BY-PREDESTINATION)". I merely read it in context, and explained that it was the FACT of His being the MESSIAH that they did not believe. And they did not believe that FACT, because they did not believe in HIM. The SHEEP are sheep BECAUSE they believe in Jesus, and the SHEEP also believe He is the Messiah. I demonstrated that this verse has NOTHING to do with "predestination"...
me.
Not true, I quoted the scripture. It says: "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." I never said anything about chosen-by-predestination. You don't listen very well Ben. You like to ascribe to me what I did not say. That is not an act with much integrity.
Believing that fact and believing in Him are the same ben. The pharisees wouldn't believe in Him if they didn't think he was the messiah, so your reasoning is circular and without any merit. Like i said, a cup of air has more substance.
you.
And why do they choose to enter but because they believe! Eternal life is defined as life with God never ending. You contradict yourself when you say you will always be with God but then maybe not. If maybe not then why do you boast you have eternal life NOW? You agree you might go to hell and have eternal damnation.
]Eternal life is the inheritance, which is reserved in Heaven for you. Salvation is our grasp of that eternal life, which is comprised of our fellowship with/in/through Jesus. If we HAVE Jesus, we (at-this-time) HAVE THE ETERNAL LIFE.
me.
Salvation is eternal life since we are saved from Hell. Eternal life is the free gift as Romans 6:23 plainly tells us. You do not understand the Word because you have wrong definitiond for its words and ideas. Your own arguement above contradicts itself because you fail to see that eternal life is the free gift. You fail to see that salvation is eternal life. You remain decieved.
I asked you:
What then can keep you from eternal damnation?
you replied: [excerpts]
I can KEEP MYSELF
I can be diligent
I can FIGHT the GOOD FIGHT
I can CONTINUE
I can ENDURE
I can ENDURE TO THE END
I can ABIDE IN HIM...
God, nope he can't help you, Jesus, nope, he has done all he can for you. As you look towards the future where does the hope for heaven lay? Why in yourself, in what you DO or don't Do. Your faith is in you.
Your bosat is clearly not in what Jesus has done for you, but in yourself, how Ben can save himself by Ben doingthis or that. Your misunderstaning of basic scripture terms and definitions leaves you badly decieved.
end part one
you,
The reason you cannot understand is because you want it to read favorably to your position. Or because I simply read different in the Word...
Could someone, a false professor of the faith, get baptized presumably as a believer, and presumably as in obedience to Jesus... Can someone partake of the HOLY SPIRIT and not be saved? I say "NO", you say "YES". You believe the Holy Spirit will indwell one-who-is-unsaved...
me.
Did you look up those definitions in a Bible dictionary? Do you have any evidence to show why you go so far astray from almost 2000 years of Christian doctrine? Is your only defense "I simply read different in the Word..."
Do you know what a straw man argument is? You have no integrity when you ascribe to me a position I never took. I never said that someone who partook of the Holy Spirit wasn't saved or that the Spirit indwelt someone who wasn't saved.
Why would you jump to such false conclusions? Would you want someone to say that about you? No/ Then you should repent of that sin.
you.
You knee-jerk into the "OLD-CATCH-22"---well, if they ARE unsaved NOW, then they were NEVER SAVED to beGIN with". But verses as: "Brethren, if any of you", "Watch YOURSELVES", "ELDERS! BEWARE your adversary the devil, who stalks the world as a roaring lion SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR", "Partakers of the Holy Spirit", "truly-escaped-defilements-by-the-TRUE-knowledge-of-the-LORD-and-SAVIOR-JESUS", and "some will FALL FROM THE FAITH", "you have been SEVERED from CHRIST, you have FALLEN from GRACE", "KEEP the faith, which some have REJECTED and suffered SHIPWRECK in regard to their faith", these and many more, you cannot receive, so deeply entrenched is "OSAS" in you. "THEY WERE NEVER SAVED! they HAD the Holy Spirit but were UNSAVED! MAYBE they never became UNSAVED! They suffered SHIPWRECK but were ABSOLUTELY STILL SAVED!" If the Bible doesn't convince you, how can I?
me.
Hello Ben. Have you been listening to me? I accuse you of being unable to discern what the Word is saying in part because you have many bad definitions of key words or phrases. You appeal to a bunch of verses where you continue in your perverted definitions and just lump them together as if piling on bad apples ontop of bad apples can make good apples.
Each verse you have brought up so far, I have shown you your error. I have asked you to reconcile your bad definitions with how Christians have defined these words and phrases since the beginning. Start there Ben.
you.
Sure. Give up the idea that salvation can be lost by things you DO or DON'T DO. To "give-up" something, one first must HAVE it. We (OSNAS) have NEVER had the view that DO's save or condemn. No matter how many times we say, we still hear "BUT SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS!" That's true, it's not. It's by JESUS-IN-YOU. Which CAUSES the works ("you will know them by their fruits"---did Jesus mean it or not?). If receiving Jesus was NOT a work, then later rejecting Jesus is NOT a work. Clearer now?
me.
Look up what salvation means ben. Your definition is incomplete. How can we discuss salvation if your definition is inadequate? But as to salvation by works, as much as you seek to deny it, in every post you reaffirm it. Words like "One must be diligent," or Thinking that 2nd Peter 1:4-12 means "if we don't DO these things we won't get into heaven." Your whole theology is simply this: God has a part, and man has a part and man fails to DO his part he will perish.Hence works salvation.
you.
They CAN mean the same thing only if you pervert their true meanings.
In Col3:24 the REWARD is the INHERITANCE. Argue with Paul, not me.
me.
Wrong again. It doesn't say that the reward IS the inheritance. It says that for SERVING the Lord [works] we will recieve rewards, rewards OF the inheritance. And not rewards IS the inheritance.
You misread Paul, you pervert Paul.
you.
You arbritarily assume that being deceived and losing salvation are one and the same. They are not.
But you believe that one can be DECEIVED BY SIN, return to WICKED LIFESTYLE, out of FELLOWSHIP THROUGH CHRIST, PTIAO-STUMBLED-WRETCHED!, BACKSLIDDEN, BUT ABSOLUTELY STILL SAVED!!! Is it me, or you who misunderstands salvation?
me.
First, you didn't deny my statement.
Second, that is a straw man argument. I never said any of that, nor implied it. You simply show your ignorance.
you.
As it plainly says, he is warning them of being decieved so that they might not lose what they have accomplished. They haven't accomplished eternal life. They were given eternal life.
they were given NOTHING, until they had the faith to RECEIVE IT. The FAITH is what has been "wrought", it is by FAITH they have been saved, and it is by FAITH they will REMAIN saved. If their faith/belief ENDS, then too will their salvation. "And though you have not seen Him, you love Him; and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with hoy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of YOUR faith the salvation of your souls" 1Pet1:9
Me.
What we wrought means what we worked for. If faith is a work [something we wrought] then salvation is by a work and not free. Your failed understanding of faith shows why you cannot understand the Word in these other passages. Faith is not a work, nor something we wrought, so salvation is a free gift. Again, if you had to wrought something to gain salvation it couldn't be free or a gift.
But [in your view] what they wrought to gain salvation isn't even salvation from Hell. You are quite decieved.
and again you prove that:
you.
Salvation is not the gift. The provision for salvation, GRACE, JESUS-ON-THE-CROSS, THAT is the gift. Salvation is RECEIVING the gift. THROUGH OUR FAITH. This is what Scripture says, this is what I believe...
me.
Scripture doesn't say that. The Church down through the ages has not said that. You are decieved.
you.
2nd Peter 1. As I have told you many times, Peter is telling us how to have an abundant entrance into the kingdom. It's not AN abundant entrance, it's THE EISODOS-GATE-ITSELF... He is not telling us how to stay saved. "For IN THIS WAY the GATE of Heaven WILL BE PROVIDED". Do you contend there is another way to the Gate of Heaven? (Is salvation (staying out of hell and going to heaven) ---salvation is NOT "staying out of Hell". Salvation is FELLOWSHIP THROUGH CHRIST, the propitiation for our SIN. Avoiding Hell is the CONSEQUENCE of our "having-been-saved-from-our-sins"...
me.
Sorry ben you have again perverted the Scriptures. They plainly say that it is an abundant entrance:
KJV- For so an entrance shall be minisistered unto you abundantly into the everlasting Kingdom...
NIV- and you will recieve a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord...
Greek- For so richly will be supplied to you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of the Lord...
you,
a free gift? If so, then why do we have to do all these things to GET our free gift? [2pet1:5-7] What do these things do for us? Verse 8 tells us that having these things will keep us from being barren or unproductive. Is salvation (as I define it) something we must produce? No! The reward of a productive person is the wage he recieves for his efforts. If Peter didn't mean that all these things WILL accompany the saved, they why did he say it? Peter is not talking about salvation, but rewards. Deal with that concept please. It is, really, impossible for me to "deal with that concept", when Peter very plainly says: "He who LACKS these qualities is blind and shortsighted and has FORGOTTEN his PURIFICATION from former sins". You say "either they WERE NEVER SAVED (and somehow were unsaved-but-PURIFIED-FROM-SINS), or they never FELL from salvation (and an impure un-fruited person is still SAVED)".
me.
So you are saying that we must Do stuff to stay saved? Works salvation. One way or the other Ben.
you.
This passage does NOT say that "these attributes save you"---it only says "These things WILL be yours IF you are saved. If they are NO LONGER yours, then you are NO LONGER saved." "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit. Therefore you will KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS." Jesus said it, I believe it!
me.
You can't even get your wrong scripture readings consistent. It never says you will have these things if you are saved, it commands us to ADD these things to our faith. Those who have failed to ADD these things are shortsighted, those who DO ADD these things will NOT BE UNPRODUCTIVE for Jesus and a rich welcome into heaven hey will recieve.
you.
What we have as the free gift is 'being saved' by grace through faith.
The free gift is the provision. It is God's grace. Undeserved, unearned. But salvation is by our faith, by which the PROVISION is RECEIVED. "For by grace through YOUR FAITH are you saved, and GRACE is not of yourselves, GRACE is the gift of God; GRACE IS not as a result of works lest anyone boast." GRACE-RECEIVED-IN-FAITH is NOT a work, no matter how many times it is called so...
me.
No Ben. look it up. Check the church's 2000 year understanding. The free gift is salvation.
Romans 6:23 tells us:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
hello ben, could it be plainer said then that. The free gift is eternal life, not just some provision for it. You have been decieved. wake up!!
you.
I suggest you skip the Greek and learn to use an English translation, or whatever your native tongue is. I sorry, I no speak English good please...
me.
I said whatever language your native tongue is. Do you always listen so badly?
you.
Why 'watch yourselves' is not talking about salvation, but rewards. You lose your rewards, or part of them because you walked in disobedience. Salvation is not based on our works, good or bad. Heaven is a free gift from God.
OK, then we leave your understanding as: "WATCH YOURSELVES, that you may not LOSE WHATEVER REWARDS you have in Heaven, for YOU can never be unsaved. But, now, if ONE-FROM-AMONG-YOU (but not YOU YOURSELVES of course) has GONE-TOO-FAR, well then he was never saved in the FIRST PLACE, because if he HAD been saved it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for him to have been deceived into falling"...
me.
basically correct. It is too bad you cannot understand that there is non-believers among every congregation. So that from among them one could not be a believer. John wouldn't write the letter "To the true believers and not to the unbelivers among you".
you.
Incredulous! The Pharisees did not believe because they had not believed.
You said "the Pharisees did not believe (in Christ) because they were not His sheep (not CHOSEN-BY-PREDESTINATION)". I merely read it in context, and explained that it was the FACT of His being the MESSIAH that they did not believe. And they did not believe that FACT, because they did not believe in HIM. The SHEEP are sheep BECAUSE they believe in Jesus, and the SHEEP also believe He is the Messiah. I demonstrated that this verse has NOTHING to do with "predestination"...
me.
Not true, I quoted the scripture. It says: "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." I never said anything about chosen-by-predestination. You don't listen very well Ben. You like to ascribe to me what I did not say. That is not an act with much integrity.
Believing that fact and believing in Him are the same ben. The pharisees wouldn't believe in Him if they didn't think he was the messiah, so your reasoning is circular and without any merit. Like i said, a cup of air has more substance.
you.
And why do they choose to enter but because they believe! Eternal life is defined as life with God never ending. You contradict yourself when you say you will always be with God but then maybe not. If maybe not then why do you boast you have eternal life NOW? You agree you might go to hell and have eternal damnation.
]Eternal life is the inheritance, which is reserved in Heaven for you. Salvation is our grasp of that eternal life, which is comprised of our fellowship with/in/through Jesus. If we HAVE Jesus, we (at-this-time) HAVE THE ETERNAL LIFE.
me.
Salvation is eternal life since we are saved from Hell. Eternal life is the free gift as Romans 6:23 plainly tells us. You do not understand the Word because you have wrong definitiond for its words and ideas. Your own arguement above contradicts itself because you fail to see that eternal life is the free gift. You fail to see that salvation is eternal life. You remain decieved.
I asked you:
What then can keep you from eternal damnation?
you replied: [excerpts]
I can KEEP MYSELF
I can be diligent
I can FIGHT the GOOD FIGHT
I can CONTINUE
I can ENDURE
I can ENDURE TO THE END
I can ABIDE IN HIM...
God, nope he can't help you, Jesus, nope, he has done all he can for you. As you look towards the future where does the hope for heaven lay? Why in yourself, in what you DO or don't Do. Your faith is in you.
Your bosat is clearly not in what Jesus has done for you, but in yourself, how Ben can save himself by Ben doingthis or that. Your misunderstaning of basic scripture terms and definitions leaves you badly decieved.
end part one
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