Can you lose your salvation??

[mjwhite]

Ben,

you like to say that it is not you that will convince, but it is you who continually buthchers the Word.

you.
quote:
Does it specifically say that those who run ahead were once saved?
"Watch YOURSELVES; if you GO TOO FAR and DO NOT ABIDE IN THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST"
...but he was talking to UNSAVED PEOPLE. So he doesn't really mean what he says, because they were not IN the teachings of Christ, so obviously they can't NOT ABIDE ('cause they-were-never-there-in-the-first-place)...
Again, it is not I who will convince you, if Scripture does not...

me.
It does not say, "Watch YOURSELVES; if you GO TOO FAR and DO NOT ABIDE IN THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST"

Does it? No. But you twist the Word so to distort the truth. Why do you do that?

you.
quote:
So why did you change your mind?
Conviction. The Word convicted my heart, creating faith-unto-salvation. Because of my new faith, I surrendered to Him, received Him, and He did the worlk of salvation in me. "For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

me.
So you didn't change your mind voluntarily? The Word convicted you and created in you faith-unto-salvation? I agree wholeheartedly with you here Ben. It is just too bad that you fail to see that such salvation is everlasting.

Since you now have Word created faith unto salvation what makes you think God's word won't always create such faith in your heart?

I will be back some time next week. I will reply to your answer then. Search out your heart Ben, and know that He who saved you will always be the one who saves you. He will always be in your heart forever.

mike

 

[Ben johnson]

Does it? No. But you twist the Word so to distort the truth. Why do you do that?

All right---let's read a "word-for-word-from-the-Greek": See-to yourselves that not we-may-lose what-things we-wrought, but reward full we-may-receive. Everyone who transgresses, and abides-not in the teaching of-the Christ, God not has. He-that abides in the teaching of-the Christ, this [one] both the Father and the Son has." (George Ricker Berry "King James Interlinear Greek)

Exactly what is it that I am twisting?

So you didn't change your mind voluntarily? The Word convicted you and created in you faith-unto-salvation?

Paul says that "what is known about God is evident to the, because God made it evident to them." What does the next verse say? Rom1:20ff "For since the creationof the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, so they are without excuse. For even thouh they new God, they did not glorify Him as God, or give thanks; but became futile in their speculation, and their foolish heart was darkened..."

Which is portrayed here? Divine election? Or free will? If divine election, they why the words, "They are without excuse". If divine election, there certainly would BE an excuse. Romans 1 is consistent with the verses that say "God calls EVERYONE" (Rom5:18, Jn12:32 {"Helkuo-drag" just as in Jn6:44}, 1Tim2:4)---that is, God is revealed to EACH PERSON in enough measure to overcome "total depravity".

So there is "no excuse"...

Since you now have Word-created-faith-unto-salvation what makes you think God's word won't always create such faith in your heart?

Because salvation was my choice, in receiving CHRIST, because "faith-unto-salvation comes from hearing", because "with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation", because salvation is fellowship-with/abiding-in CHRIST (and therefore not a one-time-event but a lifelong fellowship), because of all of the Scriptures that very clearly warn me to "not be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God", and "I shall be presented holy and blameless before God IF I CONTINUE firm and steadfast and NOT MOVED AWAY FROM JESUS", because of all of these and many more Scriptures, I must believe that I must be DILIGENT about my FELLOWSHIP, KEEPING myself in the love of God, ENDURING TO THE END.

I must follow Scripture.

There are many who believe "OSAS" who are in fellowship with Him, and are saved.

My concern is for those who do not believe that growth and maturity, and prayer and fellowship with Him, are necessary...

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by mjwhite
dear Richard,

I agree that salvation is a process ONLY if you describe the process like this: 1st we are saved from judgment, then we are saved through santification, saved from our sinful nature, and 3rd, we are saved from the world through physical death to it. But our actual salvation happens when we recieve the Holy Spirit and become a child of God. All other 'processes' of our salvation go from there to lead us into Christlikeness.

mike

mj, hello

I don't understand what you are trying to say, because you preface each item with the words; "we are saved from", and them you explain that

"actual salvation happens when we recieve the Holy Spirit"

Ok, so you agree with;


Eph 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the deposit of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So, if I understand you correctly, you say your saved when you receive the Holy Spirit, but when does that happen?

When you obeyed the commandment?

When you believed?

Or after you have done 1-3?

Jesus himself said to his disciples;

Jhn 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Holy Spirit will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when HE is come, HE will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment :
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Rom 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God , they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ ;


Jhn 14
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Here are some verses which clear this matter up a bit.

1. "we are saved from judgment"; Note vs 8, above.

2. "we are saved through" Sanctification"

To be set apart is to be sanctified; by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit sets GODS people apart, not membership in a church, or denomition. Belief in the truth, is belief in Jesus, the way, the life and the TRUTH.

1 Pet 1
2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:"

3. "we are saved from the world through physical death to it."

1 Jhn 5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Salvation according to these verses is experienced here today and know, it is not based on any work we must perform, for Gods deposit that gives that assurance is the inward witnes of his spirit to ours that we are HIS.


Let me close with these final verses
that speak of a present spiritual life given by His spirit; the same spirit that rasied Jesus from the dead.

(Rom 8:11) "If that spirit that raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you......."

and,

Eph 2
1 And you hath he given life to, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath given life to us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)





RICHARD

 

[LouisBooth]

"Gimme a post number. I am on a dial-up, supposedly 50k, but sometimes it takes from 1 to 5 minutes for EACH PAGE to load here. "

I'm no dial up too I would say search your own thread then look for mine right above it We were back and forth for a long time.

 

[Julie]

Ben=

All right---let's read a "word-for-word-from-the-Greek":

I must follow Scripture.

Which/what "Scripture" are you following???
*******************************************


Ben, you need to prayerfully study this verse to see who is speaking to who and about what and when.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The verse has been misapplied by every group that ever came along that wants to control it followers.

NOTICE:
[1]. No one's life is being discussed, (vs. 14).

[2]. It is the end of a time period, not an individual's life, (vs. 14).

[3]. There are no Christians present, (24:3).

[4]. The land being discussed is Palestine, (24:16).

[5]. The audience addressed are Jews, (vs. 1-3).

[6]. They are observing Old Testament Law then, (25:15-20).

[7]. They are worshipping in a temple in Jerusalem, (24:15; 2 Thess. 2).

[8]. They are physical, not spiritual Jews as in (Rom. 2:29).

[9]. The Christian already has the promise that he will endure to the end if that is what is under discussion, (1 Cor. 1:7,8).

[10]. The 2nd Coming follows the "end" in this passage, and not the Death of the believer, (24:14,21,29). So the passage is plainly a reference to a law, abiding Jew in Palestine immediately preceding the 2nd Advent.

Julie





***************************************
Salvation is NEVER "fellowship-with/abiding-in CHRIST"

 

[Ben johnson]

Salvation is NEVER "fellowship-with/abiding-in CHRIST"

Then what is salvation? In your words?

 

[Julie]

Originally posted by Julie
Ben=



Which/what "Scripture" are you following???
*******************************************


Ben, you need to prayerfully study this verse to see who is speaking to who and about what and when.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The verse has been misapplied by every group that ever came along that wants to control it followers.

NOTICE:
[1]. No one's life is being discussed, (vs. 14).

[2]. It is the end of a time period, not an individual's life, (vs. 14).

[3]. There are no Christians present, (24:3).

[4]. The land being discussed is Palestine, (24:16).

[5]. The audience addressed are Jews, (vs. 1-3).

[6]. They are observing Old Testament Law then, (25:15-20).

[7]. They are worshipping in a temple in Jerusalem, (24:15; 2 Thess. 2).

[8]. They are physical, not spiritual Jews as in (Rom. 2:29).

[9]. The Christian already has the promise that he will endure to the end if that is what is under discussion, (1 Cor. 1:7,8).

[10]. The 2nd Coming follows the "end" in this passage, and not the Death of the believer, (24:14,21,29). So the passage is plainly a reference to a law, abiding Jew in Palestine immediately preceding the 2nd Advent.

Julie





***************************************
Salvation is NEVER "fellowship-with/abiding-in CHRIST"

Ben=Then what is salvation? In your words?
If I told you, would you LOSE it?

 

[Ben johnson]

Julie: Salvation is NEVER "fellowship-with/abiding-in CHRIST"

Ben: Then what is salvation? In your words?

Julie: If I told you, would you LOSE it?

Julie, it was a sincere question. You asked, "which what 'SCRIPTURE' are you following"? If I follow a different scripture than you, I ask only to understand you. So that we can discourse effectively.

You said, "salvation is not fellowship with Christ". And "it is not abiding in Christ". Do you beleive that you can be "heaven-bound", but all-the-while not be in fellowship with Jesus? Can Jesus "deny you before the Father, yet you will still reside in God's presence forever"?

Can you belong to God, yet not be abiding in Christ?

Sincerely, not flippantly, what do you believe?

 

[Julie]

Ben it seems you never answered MY question I asked or addressed my post on Matt 24:13.

Which/what "Scripture" are you following???

 

[Ben johnson]

Then I'll answer YOUR question WITH Scripture:

"Then they will deliver you up to triulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. And at that time many will fall away (be caused to stumble) and will deliver up one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. And because lawlessness is increased, many people's love will grow cold. BUt the one who endures to the end will be saved." Matt24:9-13

"But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, deliverin you to the synagogues and prisons, brining you before kings and governors for My name's sae. It will present an opportunity for your testimony. So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. But you will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all on account of My name. Yet not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your 'PSUCHE'-souls." Luke 21:12-19

 

[Julie]

Romans 5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 John 5
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Ben, Who is being delivered up to triulation in Matt?
What kind of "scripture" are you misquoting/misapplying?
JuliE

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, Who is being delivered up to triulation in Matt?

Christians, in the Tribulation.

What kind of "scripture" are you misquoting/misapplying?

I gave you the references---do you have access to Greek?

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

We are "justified by faith through Jesus". From whence comes this "faith"? Unilaterally from God? Or from our convicted hearts? (Rom10:10)

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

James tells us in 2:19 that "mere-head-knowledge-BELIEF" is quite insufficient to salvation. Jesus Himself said, "You must REPENT" (Lk13:3), "you must DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER" (Mtt7:21), "you must be humbled as a child" (Mtt18:3-4), "you must be BORN AGAIN" (Jn3:3---on which all the others are founded).

HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS THE LIFE---I write this to you that BELIEVE in the name of the SON of GOD, that you may KNOW you have eternal life"

I ask again---can you HAVE THE SON, without being in FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM? Is "believing in the name of the Son of God", mere "head-knowledge"? Or are we required to be "born again", to be "crucified with Christ---it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." Gal2:20

Are we saved by mere "belief", or are we charged to be "born again", "a new creation" (2Cor5:17), fellowship through Christ (1Jn1:3,6)

WHICH?

 

[Julie]

Hebrews 10
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[eldermike]

I just got my DSL working after 1 1/2 days of fighting with "plug and crash". You OSNAS people are in big trouble now, 10,000,00bps worth of it <grin> God is good! And yes Ben I have greek (now at the speed of light)

More on greek: Ben, you don't use greek for doctrine, the Bible translators took care of that for us. I use greek because I am a student. Not one thing I have seen in greek has changed any doctrine. Sure there are wods in greek that have deeper meaning in greek (love - word) are two examples. My point is, if you need to go to greek to understand doctrine then you are rejecting the current translations, that is dangerous. I have studied for many years and have never met anyone that felt that the original translators were wrong on doctrine. A word here and there, that's about it. The OSAS scripture is there, without the need to work on verb tense.

Here is a challange. Find the blood of Christ and the need for confession of sins in the same sentence. or - find the blood of Christ and forgivness of sins in the same sentence. Which of these do you think you will find?

Blessings

 

[Ben johnson]

Hello, ElderMike. Do you find anything objectionable in my previous post? Apparently I have angered Julia, and I truly did not mean to. In my Scriptural studies, I have not found anything that contradicts salvation being our "fellowship through Jesus". Yes John3:16 says that "he who believes should not perish, but have eternal life"---but then we have the other quotes from Jesus, about "doing the works of the Father" and "repentant" and "humbled as a child" and "born again"---and in each case, Jesus very clearly says "UNLESS _____, you will NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!" So we see that we ARE saved by belief, but not just ANY belief. It is QUALIFIED belief.

Do you really think we cannot gain more understanding from the Greek? The translaters, throughout time, were Human. And absolutely capable of mistakes. Maybe not actual mistakes, but differences in opinion. Take the NIV and KING JAMES translation of 1Cor12. The Greek plainly uses the word "me" (pronounced "may"), which is a NEGATIVE RHETORICAL (can ONLY be answered "NO"); but both NIV and KJV get it wrong---they simply translate, "are all apostles? Are all prophets? Do all speak with other tongues?" NASV comes far closer to the Greek intent with, "All are NOT prophets, are they? All are NOT apostles, are they? All do NOT speak with other tongues, do they?" Sadly, this exact "literary device" is missed in all three translations in James 2:14: "That faith can NOT save him, CAN it?" The "me dunamai" is-not-able-to is once again a negative question.

"The kind of faith that produces no works can NOT save you, CAN it!"

When we read James 5:19-20, without the Greek there is no response to the person who claims, "OH that's just death-of-BODY, not SPIRIT!" But it clearly uses the word, "psyche/psuche", (which James' contemporary John clearly uses for "immortal soul" in Rev20:4), and it uses "thanatos" which according to the Greek dictionary I use says "physical-with-implication-of-Hell". Contrast this with James2:26, where "spirit" is "pneuma" (ghost) and "death" is "nekros" (body-death).

(Which leaves the "OSAS" person with only two options---either to declare that "Brethren if any of YOU" was addressed to NON-CHRISTIANS [?!], or the entire letter can be discounted via dispensationism...)

Without the Greek, how would we know what was really written in Heb6:4-6? In KJV and NIV, the word "IMPOSSIBLE" appears in verse 4, but it appears in verse 6 in NAS! And we can LOOK UP the word "IMPOSSIBLE", which is "ADUNATOS"--- 1.without strength, impotent, powerless, weakly, disabled 2.unable to be done, impossible . We can clearly see that the stronger meaning is "strengthless, weak"; the "impossible" is the LEAST meaning. Whether or not it is "without strength" or "impossible", the important issue is the reason that restoring repentance is "adunatos".

We furthermore see that "SINCE" does NOT appear in KJV or NIV (but does in NASV); likewise, KJV uses "seeing", NIV uses "because". Which word is in the Greek---SINCE, SEEING, or BECAUSE? Answer is, NONE OF THEM! But all three "interpretations-by-the-translators" really say the same thing as I was contending---that the reason it is "adunatos", is "seeing, since, because of their crucifying-Christ-over-and-over-and-regarding-Him-with-contempt".

In NASV, the word, "SINCE", carries this footnote: while.

"It is adunatos to restore them to repentance, WHILE they are crucifying CHrist to themselves anew, and put Him to open shame."

So, we see, that Ben johnson is NOT "smarter than the learned-translators", but the assertions Mr. Ben made, are perfectly supported BY the translators...

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Richard,

you said.

#206


quote:
Originally posted by mjwhite
dear Richard,

I agree that salvation is a process ONLY if you describe the process like this: 1st we are saved from judgment, then we are saved through santification, saved from our sinful nature, and 3rd, we are saved from the world through physical death to it. But our actual salvation happens when we recieve the Holy Spirit and become a child of God. All other 'processes' of our salvation go from there to lead us into Christlikeness.

mike



mj, hello

I don't understand what you are trying to say, because you preface each item with the words; "we are saved from", and them you explain that

"actual salvation happens when we recieve the Holy Spirit"

Ok, so you agree with;


Eph 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the deposit of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So, if I understand you correctly, you say your saved when you receive the Holy Spirit, but when does that happen?

When you obeyed the commandment?

When you believed?

Or after you have done 1-3?

me.
I didn't mean to be unclear. But timing in salvation isn't a set thing. Some people believed and never recieved the Holy Spirit [Old T. saints]. Others recieved the Holy Spirit the insyance thet believed. Others had to wait a while [like the apostles].

You are saved when you believe. You were also saved from the foundation of the world when God elected you unto salvation. God is He who calls things that are not as if they are [Romans 4]. But that doesn't mean He lies, but rather these things become because He called them. In a sense, you couls say He both knows the future and He creates it.

The deposit of the Holy Spirit is a sign to us of our relationship to Him. It is highly subjective in that we cannot prove His co-existence with us to others. But what will happen is our life willchange as we walk in obedience to the Lord. All those who are led by the Spirit arechildren of God.

But it is evident, especially to ourselves, that we are still sinners. As children we must mature into His likeness. Eventually we will leave these bodies of sin and see Him face to face and ever be like Him. That is what I meant by the process of salvation.

It is complete at belief, but it isn't. It is complete in that we are saved from our future judgment. It is incomplete in that we are yet incomplete needing to 'die daily' from this world and put on the new man instaed of walking in the old.

you.
Salvation according to these verses is experienced here today and know, it is not based on any work we must perform, for Gods deposit that gives that assurance is the inward witnes of his spirit to ours that we are HIS.


me.
I agree completely with you here.
You finish with...

Ehesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath given life to us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Let me ask your opinion. If salvation is by grace, wouldn't faith be of grace as well? And if not, why not?

Anyone else have an opinion on that?

in His love,
mike

 

[mjwhite]

Dear ben,

you said:
quote:
Does it? No. But you twist the Word so to distort the truth. Why do you do that?
All right---let's read a "word-for-word-from-the-Greek": See-to yourselves that not we-may-lose what-things we-wrought, but reward full we-may-receive. Everyone who transgresses, and abides-not in the teaching of-the Christ, God not has. He-that abides in the teaching of-the Christ, this [one] both the Father and the Son has." (George Ricker Berry "King James Interlinear Greek)

Exactly what is it that I am twisting?

me.
What did you say?
[Q]Does it specifically say that those who run ahead were once saved?
"Watch YOURSELVES; if you GO TOO FAR and DO NOT ABIDE IN THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST"
...but he was talking to UNSAVED PEOPLE. So he doesn't really mean what he says, because they were not IN the teachings of Christ, so obviously they can't NOT ABIDE ('cause they-were-never-there-in-the-first-place)...
Again, it is not I who will convince you, if Scripture does not...[/Q]
Well your sarcasm aside, [since a constant use of sarcasm can tend to dilute its power and also obscure your meanings, I suggest you use it more sparingly].
He wasn't talking to unsaved people. Are you not reading what I write? I never said that nor implied that. I said he was talking about unsaved people.

Taking your Greek rendering of it, let us go through and see.
"See-to yourselves that not we-may-lose what-things we-wrought, but reward full we-may-receive."

Who is talking to and about here? He is speaking to the 'dear children' about themselves. The word 'yourselves' shows us that.

Is he speaking about them losing their salvation? No, for salvation isn't a reward. What is our reward? We will be rewarded for what is done in the body both good and bad. These things are also known as 'works'. What YOU do will be rewarded. Salvation is what GOD has done for you that you do not and never will deserve, and therefore is not nor never can be a REWARD! Salvation is a GIFT!

The next verse.
". Everyone who transgresses, and abides-not in the teaching of-the Christ, God not has."

This verse does not mean every time you sin you lose your salvation. The NIV renders it like this: "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teachings of Christdoes not have God;..."

Notice the change in John's direction from the previous verse. He goes from "yourselves" to "everyone" [or "anyone"]. He no longer is directing it personally at the chosen lady and her children. Rather, by this change is giving them advice on how to relate to false professors. In every group of believers there are those who don't believe. Judas for example. The enemy likes to sow the tares in among the wheat. John is explaining to them how to know [one way anyhow] who is not born of God: namely those who continue in sin and continually stray from the accepted teachings.

But as to my charge against you. You said the verse said: "Watch YOURSELVES; if you GO TOO FAR and DO NOT ABIDE IN THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST"

And then you said the Greek said this::Everyone who transgresses, and abides-not in the teaching of-the Christ, God not has."
To make it plainer, you said originally: "YOURSELVES" when the Word says: "Everyone". You changed the 'everyone' to 'yourselves' because it fit your doctrine. You changed the Word to fit you.
Subtle it was, just like the Jehovah Witnesses do [or most other cults]. Even Satan and Eve in the garden changed God's words in order to either decieve others or justify their sins.

As to the other point. You said.
quote:
So you didn't change your mind voluntarily? The Word convicted you and created in you faith-unto-salvation?
Paul says that "what is known about God is evident to the, because God made it evident to them." What does the next verse say? Rom1:20ff "For since the creationof the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, so they are without excuse. For even thouh they new God, they did not glorify Him as God, or give thanks; but became futile in their speculation, and their foolish heart was darkened..."

Which is portrayed here? Divine election? Or free will? If divine election, they why the words, "They are without excuse". If divine election, there certainly would BE an excuse. Romans 1 is consistent with the verses that say "God calls EVERYONE" (Rom5:18, Jn12:32 {"Helkuo-drag" just as in Jn6:44}, 1Tim2:4)---that is, God is revealed to EACH PERSON in enough measure to overcome "total depravity".

So there is "no excuse"...

me.
There is no reason to set in opposition one to the other, divine election and/or free will. Did Herod and Pontius Pilate and the people of Israel conspire together of their own free will to do with and crucify Jesus exactly as God's power and will had decided beforehand would happen? See Acts 4:27-28.
Romans 1 is talking about everybody. All people have rejected te revelation God has given them and are without excuse. This revelation is not the Gospel of Jesus, but a general revelation.

Besides that doesn't either negate nor explain YOUR words: Conviction. The Word convicted my heart, creating faith-unto-salvation. Because of my new faith, I surrendered to Him, received Him, and He did the worlk of salvation in me.

You said:
quote:
Since you now have Word-created-faith-unto-salvation what makes you think God's word won't always create such faith in your heart?
Because salvation was my choice, in receiving CHRIST, because "faith-unto-salvation comes from hearing", because "with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation",[/I}

me.
Let me see if I understand you. The Word created faith in your heart unto salvation and because of that you surrendered to Him. Then you said you had to recieve Him. Wouldn't "surrendering to Him" "and recieving CHRIST" be the same? If so then it could be said you are saying that you recieved Him because of that Word created faith in your heart unto salvation?

Pleae explain if I misunderstand you.

then you continued.
[I} because salvation is fellowship-with/abiding-in CHRIST (and therefore not a one-time-event but a lifelong fellowship), because of all of the Scriptures that very clearly warn me to "not be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God", and "I shall be presented holy and blameless before God IF I CONTINUE firm and steadfast and NOT MOVED AWAY FROM JESUS", because of all of these and many more Scriptures, I must believe that I must be DILIGENT about my FELLOWSHIP, KEEPING myself in the love of God, ENDURING TO THE END.

me.
This wasn't part of my question, but you trelling us why you think salvation isnt secure. Salvation is being saved from Hell, or not going there. If you think you could still go there, you don't think you are yet saved from it. If salvation is being saved from going to hell, then you don't think you are yet saved,

But what do you say can truly save you? You must be diligent, you must keep yourself from being hardened from sin. You YOU. YOU!!!

Jesus saves. Boast only in the cross. You cannot save yourself.

Your abiding-in-Christ is only salvation as long as you abide. That is a contradiction in terms. There is no salvation from Hell [don't you agree]if you fail to abide with Christ? How then can you boast NOW about being saved when when you don't know you will be you don't know you will abide]. You cannot call what you have salvation.

But the Word does, you might claim. Tes it does, because the Word declares that those who abide with Christ always will do so. That He will be with us forever. That He will never leave us. That wherever we go He will be there.

That nothing shall seperate us from Him and His love.
That's the truth. What do you believe?

mike

 

[Julie]

There are only three ways to lie about the word of God to a child of God: quote a verse that deals with the Old Testament, before the finished blood atonement; quote a verse that deals with somebody in the Tribulation under a faith and works situation; quote a verse in the New Testament that deals with the loss of a ministry or a testimony or a life. Since none of these three things have anything to do with the finished, completed atonement of Jesus Christ and obtaining a free eternal salvation for a sinner by the grace of God, we don't pay any more attention to them in the context of our salvation than we would a blind gnat on a beach.

-Mike Paulson

 

[eldermike]

Ben

You said<Hello, ElderMike. Do you find anything objectionable in my previous post? Apparently I have angered Julia, and I truly did not mean to. In my Scriptural studies, I have not found anything that contradicts salvation being our "fellowship through Jesus". Yes John3:16 says that "he who believes should not perish, but have eternal life"---but then we have the other quotes from Jesus, about "doing the works of the Father" and "repentant" and "humbled as a child" and "born again"---and in each case, Jesus very clearly says "UNLESS _____, you will NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!" So we see that we ARE saved by belief, but not just ANY belief. It is QUALIFIED belief.>

You get yourself all tied in a knot. Jesus said several times: He was going to die on a cross for our sins. That is what has to be beleived. It's simple, A child like faith is required. This however is the hardest thing for us to do, it sounds simple yet it's our pride that will not allow the humility to just say this: I can't stand in front of God, I am not worthy, I am a sinner, as a dirty rag, I need Jesus and the blood that was shed for me. That is the rock on which He built His church.
His church is built on believers in His atoning blood, shed once at the cross so that all who will accept our sin nature and His forgivness are saved, not being saved, but saved.
Blessings

 

[Ben johnson]

Again, it is not I who will convince you, if Scripture does not...
Well your sarcasm aside, (since a constant use of sarcasm can tend to dilute its power and also obscure your meanings, I suggest you use it more sparingly).

Hello, Mike. I’m sorry that you took it as sarcasm. It was not. Whatever convictions that occur in our hearts, it is from our own belief, and from the Spirit of God. I have friends who are agnostic; as depressing (and oftimes discouraging) as it is, for me to KNOW the Truth, and to also know that if they die in their unbelief they will certainly perish---nevertheless I understand that it is NOT I who will convince them. There is only one Savior, only one who calls and cleanses. My friends will not accept Him unless and until they are ready.

In discussing theology, I strive to be open and honest with myself. I am willing to change---I freely admit I do not have all of the answers. I do have some, and possess some understanding of Scripture. I would accept “predestined-election” based on verses like John 15:16 and Eph 1:4-12, were it not for the existance of so many other verses that speak of “falling-from-salvation”, “see that you do not live in the flesh as do the heathens”, “take care that you not have an evil unbelieving heart even to falling away from the living God”, etcetera. If I accept “predestination”, I must then deal with absolute contradictions. So in the pursuit of truth and understanding, I read the whole, in context, and arrive at the “OSNAS” belief. In that, I have, illuminated-for-me, the “supposed-OSAS” verses in harmony with “OSNAS”. What I ask, is “can the ‘OSNAS’ verses be harmonized with the ‘OSAS’ view?”

Which, you have striven to do. Regarding 1Jn1:8, you say: Is he speaking about them losing their salvation? No, for salvation isn't a reward. But I do not think the use of the word, “reward”, necessarily negates the “free-gift-of-grace” aspect of our salvation. In Luke 6:23 Jesus says: “Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in Heaven.” In Col3:23-24, “Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.” What is the “inheritace”? It is eternal life. ”Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in Heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through (your) faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” 1Pet1:3-5 So, the term “REWARD”, is often interchangeable with “INHERITANCE”...

The wicked will be “rewarded for their unrighteousness”, so too shall we be “rewarded for our righteousness”. And SINCE our righteousness is not OURS, but rather the righteousness of CHRIST that we received when we received Him, then the “reward” is not earned, is it?

Notice the change in John's direction from the previous verse. He goes from "yourselves" to "everyone" (or "anyone"). He no longer is directing it personally at the chosen lady and her children. Rather, by this change is giving them advice on how to relate to false professors. In every group of believers there are those who don't believe. Judas for example. The enemy likes to sow the tares in among the wheat. John is explaining to them how to know (one way anyhow) who is not born of God: namely those who continue in sin and continually stray from the accepted teachings.

I don’t follow your logic here. He starts, speaking to Christians, saying: “Watch YOURSELVES, that YOU do not lose what we (you) have accomplished”... And in the SAME BREATH, he continues: “Anyone who goes too far...” You do not see this as a warning? TO the “chosen lady and her children”? Is not, LOSE WHAT YOU HAVE ACCOMPLISHED isn’t that exactly the same thing as: GOES TOO FAR & DOESN’T ABIDE IN CHRIST ? I can’t understand how it could be different. “Watch yourselves that you do not lose what we (you) have accomplished”. Isn’t it, contextually, POSSIBLE to lose what was accomplished? How would you LOSE it? By, “going too far and not abiding in the teachings of Christ”??? Is it really logical, or intellectually honest, to contend that John said: “Watch yourselves that you do not LOSE what was accomplished. ANYONE ELSE BUT YOU (because YOU are SAVED) who GOES TOO FAR AND DOES NOT ABIDE in Christ’s teachings (but THEY were ALWAYS TOO FAR from the START ‘cause they were NEVER SAVED), well those NEVER-SAVED-TO-BEGIN-WITH DO NOT HAVE GOD!---and I’m only sayin’ this RHETORICALLY, ‘cause it’s IMPOSSIBLE for YOU to go too far...” Do you really believe this was John’s intent of this writing?

Let me see if I understand you. The Word created faith in your heart unto salvation and because of that you surrendered to Him. Then you said you had to recieve Him. Wouldn't "surrendering to Him" "and receiving CHRIST" be the same? If so then it could be said you are saying that you recieved Him because of that Word created faith in your heart unto salvation?

“Faith-unto-salvation”, and “belief” are one-in-the-same. Specifically, QUALIFIED belief, “doing God’s will, humbled, repentant, BORN AGAIN”. All the same. And no, the Word did not create that faith/belief/surrender in my heart, I HEARD the WORD, and I became CONVICTED. Thus, it was CONVICTION that created the belief to salvation. “With the HEART man BELIEVES, resulting in righteousness, and with the TONGUE he CONFESSES, resulting in salvation”. I am a conscious, sentient, being---I am quite capable of believing in something, or not.

This wasn't part of my question, but you trelling us why you think salvation isnt secure. Salvation is being saved from Hell, or not going there. If you think you could still go there, you don't think you are yet saved from it. If salvation is being saved from going to hell, then you don't think you are yet saved...

Salvation is NOT “being saved from Hell”. Salvation is JESUS-IN-YOU. Not entering Hell as we DESERVE is but the CONSEQUENCE of “Jesus-IN-us”. If salvation is “abiding in Him”, why would it be impossible to “NOT ABIDE”? If it was our CHOICE initially to RECEIVE Him, how would we not retain the ability to choose to REJECT Him, later?

But what do you say can truly save you? You must be diligent, you must keep yourself from
being hardened from sin. You YOU. YOU!!!

Your complaint is not against Ben johnson---your complaint here is against Peter and Paul. And Jude. And James. And John. “Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you---for as long as you practice these things ...the ENTRANCE TO HEAVEN will be provided to you!” “Take care, brethren, that there not be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. Encourage one another ...that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance FIRM UNTIL THE END”. 1Pet1, Heb3. It is precisely because of these verses, and so many others (like Col1:22-23), that I cannot accomodate the “OSAS” doctrine, Scripturally...

How then can you boast NOW about being saved when when you don't know you will be saved, and you don't know you will abide. You cannot call what you have salvation.

I only believe what I read in
Scripture. Salvation is believing in Christ. Believing, in the sense that I have “been crucified with Christ, no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me”. “He who HAS the Son has the (eternal) life”. If I recognize that I am Human, capable of being deceived, but if I am diligent to abide in Him, to “keeping myself in the love of Christ” (Jd21---what do you think Jude MEANT?), how can you say, “you don’t know you are saved, you don’t know you will abide”?

If salvation is NOT ”abiding in Christ”, then what is it?