Can you lose your salvation??

[Ben johnson]

Ben, did you not see the clear biblical answer I gave from John?

Hello, Louis! Please refresh my memory. (You know how us OLD PEOPLE get...)

If you don't want to believe what Paul wrote that's up to you It plainly says just what I quoted. Its UNREVOCABLE. Ie you can't give it back.

Let's look at that verse: "According to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but according to the election they are belooved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and callin of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were dispbedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient in order that because of the mercy shown to you they also may be shown mercy. For God has shut up together all-who-are-in-disbedience, that He might show mercy to all.

Greek words:
Charisma "Gift" (same word as in Rom6:23)
Ametameletos "Without repentance" (irrevocable)
Sugkleio "shut-up-together", as in "contain fishes in a net".

Contextually, God has made "grafting-into-the-vine" available to all, and God does not regret (repent) of that.

Now, if God cannot "unsave people", that is Scriptural. But if YOU YOURSELF cannot UNSAVE YOURSELF (see "Harpazo" in Jn10:28, no one can HARPAZO you from My hand", seize-or-remove-forcibly) ---if you YOURSELF cannot REJECT salvation, then what of all these verses:


"Abide in Me, and I in you; If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Jesus, in Jn15:4-6

"Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who goes to far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD." 2Jn1:8-9

"For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what things have been heard (faith comes from hearing), lest we drift away from it. ...how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" Heb2:1-3

"Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the EISODOS-ENTRANCE/GATE of (Heaven) will be abundantly supplied to you." 2Pet1:10-11

"KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus
Christ TO ETERNAL LIFE". Jude21

"He who endures to the end will be saved." Matt24:13, Mk13:13.

"By your endurance you will gain your PSUCHE-souls". Luke 21:19

"Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and Alexander… " 1Timothy 1:18-20

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience..." 1Timothy 4:1-6:

"But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." 1Corinthians 9:27

"do not be cause for stumbling that our weaker brethren, for whom Christ died, be ruined". 1Corinthians 8:9-13

"Obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls" (1Pet1:9---notice it is couched as "your faith", not "the faith that God has given you"...)

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18

"Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it." Heb4:1


What group was "beware your adversary the devil, who prowls the world like a roaring lion", to what group of people was that written??? 1Pet5:8

 

[isshinwhat]

You've deepened my understanding of Scripture immensely, Ben. Thank you for your ministry and the Charity you show. May God Bless you.

Neal

 

[Andrew]

Ben,

1. "Abide in Me, and I in you; If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Jesus, in Jn15:4-6

read on... 16* Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

so relax dont worry, you'll bear fruit.

2. Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward.

Dont confuse salvation with rewards.

3. Anyone who goes to far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD. 2Jn1:8-9

He's talking to those who dont believe in the teachings of Christ, ie non-believers.

4. For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what things have been heard (faith comes from hearing), lest we drift away from it. ...how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

Oh come on Ben, he's talking abt rejecting Jesus as saviour.

5. "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the EISODOS-ENTRANCE/GATE of (Heaven) will be abundantly supplied to you." 2Pet1:10-11

Just means that if you have the virtues listed in verses 5,6,7, access to the resources of heaven is wide open for you.

6. "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ TO ETERNAL LIFE". Jude21

Just means remind yourself of God's love/grace for you as you await his return.

7. "He who endures to the end will be saved." Matt24:13, Mk13:13.

obscure passage on end-time prophecy. anyway does not say Christians can end up in hell.

8. "By your endurance you will gain your PSUCHE-souls". Luke 21:19

obscure passage on end-time prophecy. anyway does not say Christians can end up in hell. dont build doctrines on obscure passages.

9. "Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and Alexander… " 1Timothy 1:18-20

Just means build up your faith or get into problems in life.

10. "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience..." 1Timothy 4:1-6:

yah, so? does it talk about Christians going to hell?

11. "But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." 1Corinthians 9:27

Again, talking abt loss of reward not salvation, read the para b4 this one.

12. "do not be cause for stumbling that our weaker brethren, for whom Christ died, be ruined". 1Corinthians 8:9-13

Huh? Just means dont cause your weaker in faith bro to sin.

13. "Obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls" (1Pet1:9---notice it is couched as "your faith", not "the faith that God has given you"...)

talking abt the return of christ, when that happens, it's the outcome of our faith, salvation for us. btw "your" faith "your" is added by translators.

14. "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18

Yeah jus means stop trusting in your own efforts, like you are doing Ben, and rely on God's grace alone! anyway how does falling from steadfastness translate to going to hell????

Ben, you've been misled by the devil. You're reading yourself or the church into every "condeming" type of scripture. There are so many other simple clear cut scriptures that prove OSAS beyond a shadow of doubt yet u choose to dwell into the dark -ve side.

 

[Ben johnson]

@ Andrew...


------------------------------------------------------
Thank you, Neal! If I touch someone with my "keyboard", the credit and glory go entirely to Him. If Him working through me has blessed someone, then it is incredible blessing for me, too.

Your words demonstrate a Spirit-led heart. I pray that I may communicate to people as you do.

 

[eldermike]

Ben,

We agree somewhat on the purpose of the cross, but you always add something to make it your point. The world calls that a "trick".

You said <That is the point. The Cross took care of all sins, of all men, for all time. Are all then saved? No. Why not? What differentiates the "men-whose-sins-are-forgiven-them" and "men-whose-sins-are-NOT-forgiven"? What? Is it not simply, BELIEF? And the unavoidable repentance that true belief, CAUSES? You speak the position beautifully. We ARE free to walk across that bridge, that "cross-of-salvation/forgiveness", that "act-of-righteousness-that-WE-COULD-NOT-do"... >

Ben, I see your view of the cross - Jesus died for all sins and we are required to muster up some belief. You have the first part right, let's work on the rest of it.


Ben, we can't believe without God calling us to it. Can we? Own our own; just believe? Or are we called to believe? Is that a move of God or man? In what order?

If we are called to believe and we do, are We His? Or are we sill Satan's, just on loan to God because we repent for all the things we can remember, and somehow the things we can't remember just fall though a crack somewhere?

If I repent ever day and miss one, what happens?

Blessings

 

[Julie]

Ben, Instead of "dealing" with scripture you should try to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God , a workman that needeth not to be ashamed , rightly dividing the word of truth."

The book of James was written “to the twelve tribes” by James Zebedee prior to Acts 12. (Not the standard teaching) It is written on the assumption that the Tribulation is imminent and therefore has “enduring to the end” written all over it. From a purely doctrinal standpoint it is primarily concerned with Jewish Christians about to enter Daniel’s seventieth week. Had the Jews repented of murdering their Messiah and repented at the preaching of Peter and Stephen, (Acts 2+7) the Tribulation period would have begun and this book would have had direct and immediate application at the time it was written.

You are misplaceing scripture, ment for the Tribulation into the Church Age.
Julie

 

[mjwhite]

dear Ben,

you.
quote:
here is how he would rewrite it:_________. He wouldn't.
Exactly my point. In trying to "re-write it to mean FALL-FROM-SALVATION", it becomes clear that it already is worded to mean exactly that---it cannot be improved.

me.
It is not clear it is worded that way. You asked to reword it that way. I refused to reword it that way[the way you wanted worded].

you.
quote:
The passage is talking about peoples, not about individual salvation, and twist it as you may, your version doesn't match.
Ah---so, then, when he says, "Do not be conceited, but fear; they were broken off for their unbelief, you stand by your faith; if God did not spare the natural branches (plural), neither will he spare you (a wild olive, singular); Behold then the kindess and severity of God; to those who fell, severity; but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness---otherwise YOU ALSO will be cut off." But this doesn't mean that we-Gentiles-individuals-can-be-cut-off? This doesn't apply to us today? I think it does...

me.
Yes that is what it means, individuals can't be cut off. It never applied to individuals.

you.
quote:
salvation and fellowship are not synonyms. That is another blatant attempt to read in to the Word what you want it to say.
"And the Word of Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested in us---what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." 1Jn1:2-3,6
Salvation and fellowship with God through Christ, are DIFFERENT Salvation and fellowship are NOT THE SAME? I "read things into the Word that are not there"? I think not...

me.
Are you fellowshipping with God while you willfully sin? Are you unsaved? Look up the words in a Christian dictionary. They are linked but they are not synonyms. So why do you mess up? You rerad your doctrine into your interpretation, instead of getting your doctrine from the Word.

you.
quote:
But you failed to answer the question! Why is that? Is your salvation something you have accomplished or do you give all the glory to Jesus? One way or the other, and no fudging this time.
The work of my salvation was done entirely by Jesus, from the Cross---I did nothing. Yet I am saved by my own belief. Which caused me to be "BORN AGAIN", which is to say, "surrendered-to-Christ". Thus the duality of the position---I accomplish nothing towards my salvation, it was all done by Jesus. AND I accomplish EVERYTHING towards my salvation, in that I believe and receive Him and abide in Him. If "accomplish" was not part of the "salvation-walk", why is the word used by John in 2:1:8?

me.
Because 2nd John 8 is not talking about salvation. Do you have children? Is there a difference between the birth of the child and how the child walks through life? Is there a difference between whether or not the child has a relationship with its parents up against whether or not the child obeys or not. You simply want to make your walk synomous with your relationship. It is not true in this worls or the next.

you.
quote:
It doesn't say that those who run ahead were ever saved does it?
So, "WATCH YOURSELVES, that you might not lose what we (you) have accomplished"---this was not written to SAVED PEOPLE. That just doesn't make sense... Besides, John starts this letter, speaking to "The chosen lady and her children". That is not "the true church"?

me.
It was written to the church. My question still stands. Does it specifically say that those who run ahead were once saved? John is speaking about false prophets and he is telling them how to recognize false prophets. They want the Word to go where it doesn't. Like making statements like "AND I accomplish EVERYTHING towards my salvation, in that I believe and receive Him and abide in Him." Boast only in the Lord Jesus Christ. But you boast in YOU.

you.
quote:
If you didn't do anything to earn salvation, then God gave it to you free. Start there and then go on to understand why a true believer will persevere.
I have started, and finished, with Scripture. We do NOTHING to EARN salvation. But we DO something to ACQUIRE salvation---we receive JESUS. By our OWN FAITH/BELIEF. Thus we persevere, when our FAITH/BELIEF perseveres.

me.
Well are you in full retreat? Probally not, you probably don't recognize your own inconsistencies. You said this: "AND I accomplish EVERYTHING towards my salvation, in that I believe and receive Him and abide in Him." so boast only in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But how do you make your faith/belief persevere? By works, right? So your salvation is by works.

you.
quote:
We can lose fellowship, but never relationship...
Please cite Scripture for support, explaining in the process how you accomodate that passage about "FELLOWSHIP" in 1Jn1 that I quoted above.

me.
I already did. Sin doesn't remove our salvation does it? Are you walking in fellowship with God when you sin?

you.
quote:
I asked this question to expose you. You exposed yourself as one under law. Why does one man go to heaven and another doesn't? You replied basically: one walks rightly. You need to be saved.
Alas, you have exposed me for what I am---a believer in the testament of Paul, who separates the two approaches of life: walking in the FLESH which is DEATH, and walking in the SPIRIT which is LIFE (Rom8:13). By walking in the Spirit I am surrendered to Christ, allowing HIM to do the work of salvation IN ME. Which, seems to be, what Jesus also preached. But you think this is wrong... quote:
Then you boast about your diligence. You boast in more than the cross. Sad.
If my "diligence" is nothing more-nor-less than abiding in Him, allowing CHRIST to live in me and work through ME, then the only thing I can boast about, is HIM IN ME! But you believe there is no diligence required to "abiding in Him". Jude obviously meant something else when he said: "KEEP yourselves in the love of God"---because we KNOW that you can never become UNSAVED. "He will never leave nor forsake you" is obviously irreversable, "YOU will never leave nor forsake HIM"...

me.
Jude in that passage isn't talking about salvation. Rather he is talking about how we now are to live. In fact he speaks of eternal security in verse 24. Or does Jesus not keep you from falling when he could keep you from falling and make Jude out to be a liar? You are prooftexting agasin.

Christ is Lord of all, but you allow Him to do? You are not Christ centered but self centered.

How do abide in Him? By works? By choosing to do something? By the power of your fickle will?

you.
quote:
Are you saying that before He saved you, you changed your mind about being his enemy?
No---I am saying that because I changed my mind about being an enemy, I am saved. Rom10:10. (Look this up...)

me.
Same thing.

So why did you change your mind?

you.
quote:
Than you are an eternal securist. Welcome to the OSAS club.
If salvation is "ABIDING IN CHRIST", should I not heed Jesus' own words: "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cut off as a dried branch and dries up; they are gathered and cast into the fire, and burned" ???

me.
Slow down. Isn't salvation by abiding-in-Christ only salvation from Hell if you abide to the end? And don't you believe that you might NOT abide to the end? So why do you already boast you are SAVED? You haven't died yet have you?
The only ones who do not abide in Jesus at judgment never were known by Him.

you.
quote:
What happens if you later disbelieve under your theory? I don't know, you have me confused. You just claimed you were sure you were going to heaven.
I am sure of my salvation because of "Christ IN ME". Because of my belief. "HE who has the Son HAS THE (eternal) LIFE!" But if I then disbelieve, if I am NOT steadfast BUT am moved away from the-hope-of-the-Gospel-JESUS, then my surety turns to smoke and blows away...

me.
So your present surety isn't a rock solid surety but it is contingent on YOU? Since you could disbelieve, you could go to hell. Therefore two things. One, to boast in heaven [which you don't know you will gain] based on the contingency your fickle will not choose to disbelieve is bogus, so why do you boast? Second, you may not be telling the truth now when you boast of salvation ["I am saved"] since you agree you may not be saved [you may not go to heaven].

But most important, you claim you have eternal life but you may not live eternally. You are self contradictory. Life is only eternal if it never dies. Eternal life isn't something you could stick in your back pocket and lose or give away. It isn't seperate from a christian, as if a christian had another life. It is what a christian is, an eternal living being. Like the Scripture plainly says those have the Son have eternal life. Or 2nd John, He lives in us and will be with us forever. Or as Paul says, it is not I that lives, but Christ who lives in me.

In order to boast you are saved and not going to Hell, you must trust that you will do your part.

you.
quote:
If Jesus were to let me down of course, I won't make it to heaven. But my faith is in Jesus alone, my only savior!
Jesus will never let us down. He will "never leave us nor forsake us". But what if WE leave HIM? Will He not remain faithful, even if we are faithless and deny Him and perish? 2Tim2:11-13

me.
This dovetails into what I just said. Who can let you down? Only yourself. So to boast you are going to heaven means you are trusting in yourself to NOT let yourself down. Your faith isn't in Jesus alone, but also in yourself. Your boast isn't in Jesus alone, but also in yourself.

But you butcher 2nd Timothy. It says that if we are faithless, he will remain faithful. The covenant is this, He will put His spirit in our hearts and He will be our God and we His people, and our sins he will never remember. Even when we fail to remain faithful, He will remain faithful still, and be our God still, and remember not our sins.


Do you remember the first covenant? What was found wrong with it, so that there was need for a 2nd covenant? Hebrews 8:7-13 tells us. Especcially verse 9: They [the people of the old covenant] did not remain faithful to my covenant. Now if the new covenant fails to save us because of the same reason the old covenant was found deliquent in, how is the new covenant any better? It would not be. Therefore your whole arguement is invalid. Your concept of what faith is, what it does, and how we come to have it are all wrong and invalid.

you.
quote:
Peter is not talking about losing salvation. He is talking about the richness of your welcome. You do not understand Peter's words.
Then teach me what Peter really meant. Peter said, "The FALSE ones seek to entice the ONTOS-APOFUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED (2:2:18). They who HAVE escaped through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS" (2:2:20) then "become again entangled in the defilements of the World and overcome" (2:2:20). "The second state is worse than the first." (2:2:20) "Far beter to have never EPIGNOSIS-KNOWN the way of salvation, than, having KNOWN it, to turn away from the Holy Commandment." (2:2:21)

Teach me how I am reading this wrong---help me to understand how this is only speaking of "the richness of our welcome"?

me.
You butcher the Word again. Peter's letter has more than one subject. You falsedly decided to combine subjects in a prooftext way to make up your theory of eternal security.

2Peter 1 talks about our walk as christians, and how we should mature through the Spirit. He is not talking about false teachers yet. He doesn't start until chapter 2 when he says, But, ...

These people in 2peter are slaves to depravity. They are still unclean as shown by the proverbs. They are still vomit eating dogs and dirty pigs. Having been exposed to the gospel and walked with the church, they are not only without excuse there hearts are hardened by their experience.

Who bears fruit unto salvation except those whose soil of their soul has been properly prepared by the Master Farmer? Those whose soil still have the tangling weeds that defile cannot produce fruit unto salvation.

mike

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by isshinwhat


This is true for as long as you allow His sacrifice to cover you. No one is saying every sin will cause a fall from grace. That would mean it was nearly impossible to be saved.

Salvation is a process to us. A growth in holiness. If we die in a state of grace, we will go to Heaven. That being said...

Picture us as clay jars. Our faith in Christ, given us by grace as a gift from God, fills in all the holes that we were born with {thanks Adam and Eve ;-) }. We then try to live more holy lives from that point onward. Through showing forth the love of Christ to our fellow man we add more clay to our jars; we grow larger. Upon our death, the jars of our lives will be thrown in the kiln and hardened. Then, ready for the fullness of their creation, each of our jars will be filled to the top. My jar may be smaller or larger than yours, but we are all completely full of life and happiness in Heaven.

The opposite can happen, too. We can make our jars smaller. Instead of living out the Divine Commandment to love, we take the clay from our jars and throw it at those we feel enmity toward. Sometimes we can be so mad, selfish, or hate filled, we can even forget that we have One who can bulid us up again. When we do that, eventually all of our clay, or a good part of it will be gone; leaving nothing but another hole filled jar that is unable to hold the Holy Spirit.

That is why we say salvation is a process.

Neal

isshinwhat

You say,

Salvation is a process, for the hearers of Gods word this is true;

But people that are saved; are doers of Gods WORD not just hearers.

Heb 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe .



From the rest of your post, it sounds as thou you believe you are the potter, and can make yourself a vessel fit for the masters use.

This thought is unscriptureal, HE is the POTTER, WE are the CLAY.




RICHARD

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
A proof, that occurred to me while reading ElderMike's threads (thanks!):

Assumption: When I was born again, all my sins were forgiven, past, present, future.

To fall away from God, to turn my back on him, would be a sin. Definitely a violation of &quot;Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and mind, and soul.&quot;

Also, OSNAS contends I have the choice to throw away my salvation - in other words, I can choose to sin in this way.

Conclusion: OSNAS means there is a sin I can commit which I would not be forgiven for.

Conclusion contradicts assumptions, therefore OSNAS is not only false, but logically inconsistent.

In short:
Scripture says that being saved means all (including future) sins are forgiven.
OSNAS says I can throw away my salvation.
Scripture would view this as a sin.
OSNAS says this sin would not be forgiven.
Therefore, OSNAS is logically inconsistent.


*waits quietly in corner for verbal gymnastics to commence*

My other thought on this is sort of weird. Does God really look at us timewise? I mean, does he care whether the good or bad I did was in the beginning or end of my life? Why is how I end so important, as opposed to what I did to get there? So, perhaps God looks at a life and says: &quot;Look here at the salvation moment, he accepted me, as I knew he would. I don't need to look any further as to whether he's going to heaven or not. He is, we're reconciled.&quot; Of course, rewards are a different matter.

Your presumptive conclusion is wrong for the following reason;

You view both as been accomplished by yourself as evident by your use of (I) in both.

But if you consider that Gods word causes you to HEAR and UNDERSTAND which, then produces the faith which SAVES the SOUL; then you might be able to grasp the fact, that the sin which you claim can cause you "To fall away" or as you say "turn your back on Jesus" has already been dealt with;

THIS IS THAT SIN THAT SALVATION SPECIFICALLY DEALS WITH, IN EVERYONE THAT HAS BEEN COVERED BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD. (jhn 1:29)

This is that SIN, all the other sins are evidence that we are sinners; the question is does God hold those against his people the answer is NO.

Jer 31:
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more .







RICHARD

 

[eldermike]

As Jesus set me free, will you alow Him to set you free?

The first part of most of the epistles is doctrinal, the middle is instructional (senseless without the doctrine). Look at them carefully read the doctrinal part of each one, stop when you hit the first instruction because unless you have the doctrine right the instructions will be nonsense to you.

example: (This is Neil Anderson's concept)
START HERE: 1CO 1:4 I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. 5 For in him you have been enriched in every way--in all your speaking and in all your knowledge-- 6 because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

STOP!!!!!!!!!! Do not go on until you understand the first part.

1CO 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.

You read on anyway - I thought so - now if you have the doctrine right the rest will make total sense, if not your in trouble.

That was just an example; Try this yourself.


My sins condemn me?: really?

Let's just take one sin, do you measure up?

Isolator: One who makes idols. What is an idol? Some say it's a watch, a ring, some say it's a car, a house. What is it? How about a job?, girl friend, TV, I am not clear on this one, are you? I needed a little freedom from this one, do you? The blood of Jesus takes care of this for me, it's in the doctrine part you skipped.


Let's do 2:,Jesus said if you lust in your mind you have committed adultery. Adulterers go to hell in your system. Do you have total control of your mind? I pray you do. I try, but my mistakes are covered by His shed blood. Praise God. This is also found in the doctrinal part of the epistles, don't skip them.

I meant three (last one): How about boasting: Do I boast if I say I am saved by either not sinning or confessing my sins? Am I not bragging? I saved myself!!!!!Thank me!, Thank me!, I confessed, I saved me!!!!! Think!! Did Christ die for nothing? Confessing is for cleansing, not saving. I want to be clean so I confess. I am saved before I confess and after I confess, I can't change that, why? because I didn't save me, the cross saved me, the blood of Jesus saved me, it wasn't me, it was God. Think!! We are sinners saved by grace, not sinners saved by confessing sins.

Ben asked, if Jesus died to save us, why are all not saved?
Again this is covered in doctrine 101 (early verses in epistles) You must not reject the work of the cross. That is why all are not all saved. Some have never allowed the blood of Jesus to cover them.

I have a another Idea: List every possible sin and give a true definition for each one, then tell us how to overcome each one. And if one is greater then the other, put them in proper order. This list must be perfect. Who is perfect?
Is overeating a sin? How much? Just wondering. This idea comes from skipping the doctrine and going right to the instructions. Don't try it, it didn't work for the Hebrew people either.


Can we stand in front of God without the shed blood of Jesus? Why not? If we have our confessions up to date, we should be clean, right? If we can't stand in front of God, then why not?

I don't know if ones following OSNAS have fully considered the consequences of their belief. Are you clean, this very second? If you are clean by your work, is that boasting, what a viscous circle.

I am clean by the blood of Jesus, without it I am just a filthy rag. Every spot is covered, every blemish is hidden by the blood of Jesus shed on the cross. My God died for my sins, but he lives today in me. I am so glad He doesn't see the filthy rag I am. I try, and as hard as I try, there is a spot here and one there, in fact, some I don't even know because I didn't make me, God did. Only he knows. That is why "none are righteous". Are you righteous? You need to be if you are not fully covered by the blood of Jesus. If you are you will be the first.

Before the cross Satan had us, He owned the sinner. Since the cross, we are covered by His blood, Satan lost. I am still a sinner but set free from sin by the blood of Jesus. Anything else means nothing changed, there is no good news.

Jesus told Peter "you sound just like Satan". Jesus had to die because I can't cover my sins. Why would Satan care about the cross?. "you sound just like Satan" - means that Satan tried to keep Jesus from the cross. Why? What is it about the cross that Satan offered Jesus the world, if only Jesus would not go to the cross. Why????

Ever notice that when Jesus said: "if a man should come after me, let Him deny Himself, pick up HIS cross and follow Me". Allow me to rephrase that: First, go to the cross of Jesus (come after me), find your cross (deny yourself), and then and only then, spread the good news (follow me).
Or - Jesus covers me (by blood I am clean) - He lives through me (My feet and hands, His Spirit) - We witness (He's the boss, I use His words)

You can't spend your life trying to keep yourself saved. God wants us to work in the fields He has made ready for harvest. "Go and spread the good news" - say to the world - "You must confess all sins constantly, and make your selves clean by your own mouths" - oops - wrong doctrine (rings of bad news) - try this - "Jesus died for your sins, on a cross He shed His blood to set you free from sin, you have been given grace so you can believe this, ask Jesus to come into your heart and you will be saved, forever". That has the ring of good news, don't you think?

Are you are still on step one?. If so - Go to the cross of Jesus, accept His gift, your sins are hidden, gone, "poof", you can be covered by His blood. Then go on to step two, let the flesh die, you will hate sin naturally and therefore with the guidance of the HS, sin less and less. Then go to step three, learn His ways (share the good news).

Twisting scripture is sin, untwist it and someone twists it right back. Who wants it twisted?

Remember, doctrine first, instructions only when you get the doctrine right. The test is: Why did Jesus die on a cross?

You will never make me guilty, The blood of Jesus set me free.

Covered by the blood of Jesus.
Mike

 

[eldermike]

I meant Idolator (I think that is right), sorry

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, I see your view of the cross - Jesus died for all sins and we are required to muster up some belief. You have the first part right, let's work on the rest of it.

We seem to be following different gospels. You follow "God saves IN SPITE of ourselves, God maintains us and grows us, in DEFERENCE to our wills. God calls some but not all, and those He CALLS he also installs the FAITH-UNTO-SALVATION. We do not have to be in fellowship with Christ, for it is GOD who establishes the saved relationship and it is GOD who maintains that relationship".

While, I follow "Jesus died for ALL MEN, to provide the opportunity of salvation to all men. And all who receive Him are saved ('For all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved'). Jesus died on the Cross for all men, GOd calls all men and reveals Himself to all men ('so they are therefore without excuse'), and all who receive Him become children of God(Jn1:12). BECAUSE salvation IS 'fellowship with/in/through Jesus', we are charged to be DILIGENT, to be STEADFAST and ENDURING, NOT MOVED AWAY FROM JESUS, to KEEP OURSELVES IN THE LOVE OF GOD, to WALK IN RIGHTEOUSNESS and not in sin, to CRUCIFY OUR FLESH DAILY, to ABIDE IN HIM."

You deny the words of Gal2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and ave Himself up for me." Clearly, sinning-ful RELATIONSHIP but outta FELLOWSHIP certainly is not "crucified with Christ, no longer I who live but Christ".

I do not want to "debunk" your entire post (I applaud your efforts and enthusiasm), for I am forever fearful of degrading to "disputes and factions"; and I believe the Spirit causes each person reading this message board to rightly discern truth. Which is to say, any convictions or changes, will be lead by the Spirit, not by me...

But I would like to address a few of the more obvious ones:

Are you fellowshipping with God while you willfully sin? Are you unsaved? Look up the words in a Christian dictionary. They are linked but they are not synonyms. So why do you mess up? You reread your doctrine into your interpretation, instead of getting your doctrine from the Word.

"The Word of Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was withthe Father and was manifested to us---what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ; ...if we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness we lie and do not practice the truth."
But, for you, fellowship is not necessary to salvation. Thus "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me" either does not apply, or means something different. So too, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose"---if "sinning willfully" is permissible, then God is not in you to will and to work according to His purpose. The "saved-relationship-and-sinning-willfully-apart-from-fellowship", is a different gospel than what I embrace.

Because 2nd John 8 is not talking about salvation.

"Watch YOURSELVES ...anyone that goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD...
But that is not talking about salvation? They can "not-have-GOD-but-still-be-SAVED"? It is not I who will convince you differently...

Does it specifically say that those who run ahead were once saved?

"Watch YOURSELVES; if you GO TOO FAR and DO NOT ABIDE IN THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST"
...but he was talking to UNSAVED PEOPLE. So he doesn't really mean what he says, because they were not IN the teachings of Christ, so obviously they can't NOT ABIDE ('cause they-were-never-there-in-the-first-place)...
Again, it is not I who will convince you, if Scripture does not...

Sin doesn't remove our salvation does it?

Yes. Saved people repent from sin. Unrepentant continuous sinning-ers are unrepentant---and are unsaved...

Are you walking in fellowship with God when you sin?

If I stumble, and "walk in the flesh", my "old-nature" lives, and I sin. But the Spirit Who indwells me immediately convicts me, and I repent. Repentance is my constant attitude, surrender to Him is my spirit. But if I REFUSED to repent, but did the sin over and over again (practicing), would that Spirit remain in me?

So why did you change your mind?

Conviction. The Word convicted my heart, creating faith-unto-salvation. Because of my new faith, I surrendered to Him, received Him, and He did the worlk of salvation in me. "For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Isn't salvation by abiding-in-Christ only salvation from Hell if you abide to the end?

No. Here is where Catholics and I differ; ...but I think we differ only in semantics, not in spirit---Salvation is NOT a process, it is a STATE. Maturity/growth is a process; but salvation is "JESUS-IN-US"! Thus, "He who HAS the Son HAS THE LIFE! I write this that you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE"!

Salvation is our state, our grasp of eternal life. "Eternal life" is the inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in Heaven for you (1Pet1:3-5). Jesus-IN-us is our salvation, our "grasp" of that eternal life. If we "abide in Him until the end", enduring, persevering, diligently seeking Him, until the end, THEN we are gifted with eternal life (2Pet1:11).

But you butcher 2nd Timothy. It says that if we are faithless, he will remain faithful. The covenant is this, He will put His spirit in our hearts and He will be our God and we His people, and our sins he will never remember. Even when we fail to remain faithful, He will remain faithful still, and be our God still, and remember not our sins.

2Tim2:11-13 is couched as a "thesis/antithesis". The THESIS is "if we DIED with Him (Rom6) we shall also LIVE with Him; if we endure (remain IN Him) we shall also reign with Him". This is the THESIS. The "ANTITHESIS", the OPPOSITE of the THESIS, is: "If we DENY Him, He also will deny us!" Which I understand to be clearly saying "and if He denies us we will NOT REIGN WITH HIM!". Verse 13 is not part of the "thesis/antithesis", only an affirmation of God's nature. "Even if we deny Him and perish, HE REMAINS FAITHFUL!"

...but YOU understand that verse to mean: "If He denies us, NEVERTHELESS we still go to Heaven". (Matt10:32-33)

You falsedly decided to combine subjects in a prooftext way to make up your theory of eternal security.

No. I demonstrated that in chapter 1 are "those who are ESCAPED the corruption of the world through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord Jesus Christ". Even you accept that these are saved. Then, in chapter 2, the THIRD group (the second are the FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS who NEVER CEASE FROM SIN), the THIRD group are "escaped from the defilements of the world through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST".

You DO accept that group #1 was saved, but so tenaciously do you hold to "OSAS" you will not accept that group #3 was just as saved as #1. If Peter's own words do not convince you, then it is not Peter, nor I, who will change you.

They are still vomit eating dogs and dirty pigs.

You believe they had "escaped the defilements of the world", but were "still eating vomit and wallowing in mud" all-the-while? I'm sorry, what I read uses the word, "returns".

Twice.

 

[Julie]

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Titus 3:10

 

[Miss Shelby]

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3

Michelle

 

[Ben johnson]

2Tim4:3

@ Michelle & Julie

 

[jrmorganjr]

Hi Lion Heart,

Yours:

Your presumptive conclusion is wrong for the following reason;

You view both as been accomplished by yourself as evident by your use of (I) in both.

Your analysis is inaccurate, I was simply denoting I was the subject of being reborn. I made no comment on how it came about, whether from me or God. But God did it. That's an odd argument, that "use of word frequency establishes causation".

But if you consider that Gods word causes you to HEAR and UNDERSTAND which, then produces the faith which SAVES the SOUL; then you might be able to grasp the fact, that the sin which you claim can cause you "To fall away" or as you say "turn your back on Jesus" has already been dealt with;

I'm confused... I think we're arguing for the same thing, but your response is as if we disagreed. I believe in eternal security. My proof attempts to establish that OSNAS (insecurity until judgement) is unsound. *drawls* Are ye fer me, are agin me?

 

[LouisBooth]

"Hello, Louis! Please refresh my memory. "

How about you go read up? I'm not willing to repeat all that in the interest of catching you up to something you already knew...*gives you some memory helping vitamins*

"if you YOURSELF cannot REJECT salvation, then what of all these verses: "

So your'e saying Paul's very plain statement of fact direcly answering your question is wrong?

 

[Ben johnson]

How about you go read up?

Gimme a post number. I am on a dial-up, supposedly 50k, but sometimes it takes from 1 to 5 minutes for EACH PAGE to load here.

Sometimes they won't load at all...

(ANd this thread is 20 pages long...)

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
Hi Lion Heart,

Yours:


Your analysis is inaccurate, I was simply denoting I was the subject of being reborn. I made no comment on how it came about, whether from me or God. But God did it. That's an odd argument, that &quot;use of word frequency establishes causation&quot;.


I'm confused... I think we're arguing for the same thing, but your response is as if we disagreed. I believe in eternal security. My proof attempts to establish that OSNAS (insecurity until judgement) is unsound. *drawls* Are ye fer me, are agin me?

JRMORGANJR,

If OSNAS = Once Saved Not Always Saved, I'm with you on the your first post @ top of page #15, if I understand you correctly you agree OSAS, if not then I'm not with you.

What confused me, was your next post, states:

"Salvation is a PROCESS" ???? What process?

A person either recieved the Holy Spirit at the moment of his salvation (forgiveness of sin), who testifys to that person that he is a Son of GOD or, he didn't recieve the holy spirit. In which case, what can that person lose, since he never recieved the gift of salvation which is deposit of the Holy Spirit (or, as Eph 1:13-14) within that person in the first place.

I was reading trying to catch up and posted both separetly, when perhaps I should have put both questions together.


By the way, I have wondered about your question at the last paragraph on page #15, and have reached this conclusion;

Salavation is pure unmerited GRACE of GOD, sinners recieve it based on the promise of GOD, and the shed BLOOD of Jesus, it has nothing to do with anything we do.

If God looked into the future and shed his grace on anyone based on whether he new whether they were going to believe in Jesus, then Grace would not be a gift, but a reward based on what that person did or would do.

We see a picture of this Grace by election of GOD in;

Rom 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil , that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Eph 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

If he choses his people whom he will save, he gives them everything to make it possible.

Thats why it is a FREE gift. Our part is accepting the GIFT.







Richard,



However,

However, then

 

[mjwhite]

dear Richard,

I agree that salvation is a process ONLY if you describe the process like this: 1st we are saved from judgment, then we are saved through santification, saved from our sinful nature, and 3rd, we are saved from the world through physical death to it. But our actual salvation happens when we recieve the Holy Spirit and become a child of God. All other 'processes' of our salvation go from there to lead us into Christlikeness.

mike