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Can you lose your salvation??

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Sandman777, Jan 2, 2002.

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  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "I don't recall the message "once saved always saved" being taught by Paul. I like to refer to Romans 10:9 "

    Okay, whoever said this must have not been reading very close at all...

    Romans 11:29 For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

    Ben...

    "
    #150


    Actually, James very clearly speaks of "falling-from-salvation" in chapter 1. "Blessed is he who perseveres under trial; for once he has PASSED, he will received the CROWN OF LIFE which the Lord has promised to those who love Him." "

    Yes, if you look closely he is saying that the man that doesn't perserver wasn't a christian in the first place and relying on himself. Look at the context ben, "For the sun rise with scorching heat and withers the plant...in the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business." Who is this rich man? look at the context and you can tell this rich man was very prideful and not of God. (vs 9 and 10). So again, James clearly says OSAS. :)

    "Do you believe we are sinless? "

    *sigh* yes, for God's word declares so. We are free from the yoke of sin and no longer under the law accordingly so. We sin, but this does not imply we are not sinless according to Paul. To be sinless means to be justifed to the law, and we are.

    "As Paul said in Rom7 & 8. "

    ahh..another misunderstanding in my opinion. This section cannot be about christians at all (chapter 7) and chapter 8 is about Christians. Paul advocated being free from the sinful nature in Christ, not a slave to in as it is stated in chapter 7. If we are not free of sin's burden Christ died for nothing. the sin nature is dead and gone permently, never to return. As far as the east is from the west, as it is written.

    "If the "old nature is gone", we are sinless.

    Which contradicts 1Jn1:8 "

    *chuckles* no it doesn't at all. These verses aren't even directed towards christians. I declare I am sinless through Christ, but I do sin. There is a major difference one that you fail to recognize.

    (in reference to 2peter2) They were not christians. For John plainly writes in his gospel the sheep ONLY follow its masters voice, they will not follow anothers.
     
  2. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Ben johnson, are you a soul winner(a witness for Jesus Christ)? I am a witness. I share the Gospel, as did the Apostles, Paul, all Christians. But I do not save people. There is only ONE Savior, and I ain't Him...

    Why did Jesus die on a cross?
    Jesus died on the Cross to provide sanctification to PAS ANTHROPOS ALL MEN. Rom5:18 "And as many as RECEIVED HIM, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

    For example, you assume James means by 'brother' that he is speaking about a christian brother. James was writing to Jews.
    No he wasn't. He was speaking to SAVED Jews. "Messianic Jews" in other words.

    Is that necessarily a true interpretation? Not necessarily. It could be interpreted that this man was a fellow worshipper, who by his actions showed he wasn't saved. Why did he wander away? Because he wasn't attached to the Anchor of his soul, the Lord Jesus.
    Ah! THEY-WERE-NEVER-SAVED. (AND, He was not talkin' to US, only to the JEWS...) MY brethren, if any of YOU wander from the truth... But his brethren ---WERE NOT saved. And they were NOT-IN-the-TRUTH. OK, let's try something here---please pretend that they WERE saved and IN the truth, and WANDERED away. How would you re-write James5:19, to indicate this? What words would you choose, different than what James chose???

    Verse 17 tells us that it was the people of Israel.
    And yet, in the Greek, the word for "branches", is plainly "PLURAL". I understand that to mean "individuals-FROM-the-Israelite-nation", SOME were "broken off". Remember, 11:1 clearly shows PAUL is an Israelite, and PAUL is NOT "broken-off". Why were the branches (PLURAL) broken-off? Because of unbelief. But if those branches (plural) CEASE in unbelief, they will be grafted in again. Let's discuss how this can be bent to mean "NATION-not-individuals, INDIVIDUALS CANNOT be broken off". BUT---they were INDIVIDUALS when they DISBELIEVED, thus it was INDIVIDUALS that were branches broken off. Even if it DID mean "as-a-nation", how can you separate the individuals, molding them into a mass-of-a-NATION. Even if it MEANT "nation", does it not still mean "if-the-individuals-comprising-that-nation-do-not-persist-in-their-unbelief, they will be grafted in again?" I am completely missing how this passage "disallows the concept of individuals-returning-to-salvation"...

    First John starts out telling us about eternal security. Straight out he tells us that Jesus the truth which lives in us will be with us forever.
    I'm sorry, that's not what it says at all. It says, "if we say we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and the truth is not in us." Salvation is FELLOWSHIP; but if we do not WALK in that fellowship, but walk in the darkness, WE ARE NOT SAVED. "The one who says he abides in Him ought himself to WALK in the same manner as Jesus walked!". This whole book compliments Jesus' words, "You will KNOW them by their fruits!" (Please look up Luke 3:7-8!)

    Is salvation something we have accomplished? No! We are saved by grace not by works [as even you state].
    We are not saved by grace. We are saved by grace, THROUGH FAITH. "For with the heart man believes" (his own faith, NOT "God-installed"!), "resulting in righteousness..." ("Now, faith comes from HEARING!" Rom10:17) "...and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation!" Rm10:10

    It doesn't say that those who run ahead were ever saved does it? No, you simply read that into it. What it does say, it says plainly: Those who do not continue in the teaching of Christ are not saved [does not have God]. Those who do show that they are saved [in that they have both Father and Son.]
    Actually, whatever it DOES say, it DOES say plainly. "Those who do not continue in the teaching of Christ are not saved". Yet, if they do not CONTINUE, then were they not, at first, IN THE TEACHING? In 2Pet2 are "false prophets/teaches, who NEVER cease from sin" (vs14). They were NEVER saved, NEVER "in the teaching". Thus they could NOT leave. Those in 2Jn, left SOMETHING. But you resolutely refuse to consider that they WERE SAVED. If you are to be convinced, it will not be me who does it. (But then, I am not the Savior...)

    Again you misread the verse. You want it to be a statement on how we stay saved but it is not. It is a statement on who is saved. Who is saved but those who continue in the faith, firmly established and not moved away from their hope. It is these people [and not those who do not continue] that God has reconciled and will present holy and unblemished in His sight.
    I'm sorry, this is presented AS a "conditional". "He will present you holy and blameless, IF you continue firmly established and steadfast, and not be moved away from Jesus". Again, if you are to be convinced, it will not be me who convinces you.

    Hebrews was written to Jews.
    No, it wasn't. It was written to CHRISTIAN Jews. Which, we, as Christian Gentiles, share in the inheritance equally...

    As to that totally inane reading of Hebrews 10:26. If it is true how you read it, then all Christians are lost since we all have willfully sinned. Haven't you? If not read 1st John 1:8.
    My "totally inane reading"? Heb10:26-27 is speaking about unrepentance. Thus, it is simply restating what Paul said in 1Cor6:9 and Gal5:21, that they who PRACTICE sinning have no part in salvation. If you reject this "interpretation", again, it will not be me who convinces you.

    Is salvation a trial you undergo, so that if you are succesful you get the reward? Or is it a free gift? Is salvation by works or not? You have fallen from grace Ben. Do not continue to to teach that we who started in the Spirit must continue in the flesh.
    Salvation is not by works. It also is not a free gift. It is a free gift received by our faith. And if you think trials have no part in our salvation, consider the following verses together: James 1:2-3 "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the trying (testing, "DOKIMION!") of your faith produces endurance." And, "by YOUR endurance you will gain your PSUCHE-SOULS." Lk21:19

    You say that in 2Peter, there is NOT an occurance of "truly-saved-who-return-again-to-the-defilements-of-the-world-and-are-LOST". Let's do the "pretend" thing again---let's say you are RIGHT, they do NOT fall from salvation. Please re-write verses 20-22, to MEAN that they "fall-from-salvation". What will you write, different from what Peter wrote? (Referring to the Greek is helpful. Try "Crosswalk.com" or "Blueletterbible.org".)
     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    From post #131:
    Why do you believe? Do you believe because you choose to?
    Yes.

    If you are as He was in this world, why do you think you might come to disbelieve? Take two men, both Christians, one is diligent, one is not.
    I have free will. Do you not read the many exhortations of Paul to "walk rightly"?

    One goes to heaven, the other does not. Did Christ die for both? Yes?
    Yes.

    Then what makes the difference between heaven and hell for these two?
    One believes and is "Born-Again", abiding in Christ, the other is not...

    One is more diligent than the other. Is that your position?
    "Diligence" and "abiding in Christ" are one-in-the-same.

    Then those in heaven have something to boast about over those in hell. Not just the cross of Jesus, or the grace of God, but the fact that they are in heaven because they were more diligent than their former brothers and sisters in Christ who failed to be as diligent as they. Are you comfortable with that aspect of your theory?
    Diligence and "abiding-in-Christ" is one-in-the-same. Salvation is "abiding in Christ, and He in you". It is NOT "just the Cross of the grace of God" that saves me, it is HE who saves me THROUGH MY FAITH. "For by grace are you saved through faith". "If we confess Jesus as LORD (faith) and believe God raised Him from the dead (grace) we will be saved." Salvation is always two things---God's grace, received through our faith. Faith that "endures", faith that is "steadfast and firmly established and not moved away from the Hope of the Gospel (JESUS!)".

    Were you not an enemy of His before salvation? So He has persuaded you of the truth, how is that installing salvation in you against your will? Good trees have good fruit. Children who disobey should be disciplined. If a parent does not properly raise a child, do you think the child is at fault? Raise a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it. If God can persuade you His enemy to trust Him, why couldn't He persuade you to always trust Him now that you are a new person, with a new heart and a new spirit and not the spirit of rebellion?
    Let us contend only with Scripture. Scripture says that before I was saved, I was an enemy. But when His word sparked conviction in my heart, and my heart believed, my faith received His salvation. By receiving HIM INTO MY HEART!

    The worth of all this maturity driven admonishments is so God can bring us to that maturity and conformity to Jesus. The word to those who show no maturity is not, You may lose your salvation, but, examine yourself to see if you really are His. All those who are put off the works of the flesh, albeit, over and over again, even as a child learns to act more mature as he is guided by loving parents.
    God has "predestined us to be Christlike"---on the FOUNDATION of our belief. If we cease to believe and reject Him from our hearts, He will cease to lead us toward maturity. Remember, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion", is followed 3 verses later by a prayer that we remain in salvation...

    You boast today that you will escape your deserved fate on Judgment Day because you believe Jesus died for those sins which condemn you, do you not?
    Yes. BECAUSE I believe...

    But if you might go there, why do you boast you are not going there ["I am saved!"] If your future is contingent on your unknown choices, than do not boast of that future, do not make claims on that future. You are only guessing you will go to heaven.
    My "eternal future" is founded upon that belief. Because salvation is JESUS-IN-US, FELLOWSHIP, which is received by belief, what happens if I disbelieve and "grieve the Holy Spirit"? Will that "seal" still survive? Eph4:30 (That SEAL is FOUNDED on MY BELIEF Eph1:13)

    Faith is knowing what you hope for and being sure of what you do not see. Do you know as a truth that you will be in heaven?
    Yes. Because of JESUS-IN-ME. 1Jn5:12-13

    You are not just trusting God to deliver you then, but you are also trusting you will be diligent. Trust only in God my friend and stop preaching that He might damn those He loves.
    Do you dispute Peter's words??? 2:1:10-11
     
  4. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Really? Let's say you are RIGHT, they were NOT Christians. Now, work with me here, pretend they WERE Christians. How would you re-write verses 18-22, to CHANGE the meaning to SAVED-CHRISTIANS-WHO-FALL? What words will you use, DIFFERENT than what Peter used?

    Vs18: "ONTOS-APOFUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED". Escaped what? "The defilements of the world" (20). How escaped? "By the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-CORRECT-KNOWLEDGE-OF-THE- LORD-AND-SAVIOR-JESUS-CHRIST (20)." An identical verse elsewhere? How about, "TRUE-CORRECT-KNOWLEDGE-of-JESUS, APOFUEGO-ESCAPED-CORRUPTION-IN-WORLD" (2:1:2-4---are they in chapter 1, SAVED? Why or why not?)

    They "are again entangled in the defilements and OVERCOME". Not lost salvation?

    "Better to have never KNOWN-EPIGNOSIS the WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS..."

    How will you re-write this to mean "Christians-who-FALL", how will you re-write this DIFFERENTLY THAN HOW PETER WROTE IT???
    We are NOT saved by grace alone. We are saved by grace, THROUGH OUR FAITH. Always salvation is presented as two things. "For by grace have you been saved through faith..." "If we confess Jesus as Lord (faith) and believe God raised Him from the dead (grace) WE WILL BE SAVED." "For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation".

    Salvation is RECEIVING CHRIST. "BUt as many as received Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.
    Salvation is FOREVER "irrevocable". And He will NEVER leave us NOR forsake us. He is ETERNALLY faithful.

    What if I REJECT SALVATION? If I deny Christ and perish, has God lost His faithfulness? NO! Has He revoked my salvation? NO! It is ME who has REJECTED IT!!!!! By disbelief!
    "James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes who are in the dispersion abroad, greetings. Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials ("Dokimazo"), knowing that the testing ("dokimion") of your faith produces endurance (steadfastness). And let endurance have its perfect result (work), that you may be perfect (mature) and complete, lacking in nothing."

    ("IF you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and NOT MOVED AWAY from Jesus"... "By your ENDURANCE you will gain your PSUCHE-SOULS." Col1:23, Lk21:19)

    ("The fire will TEST-DOKIMAZO the quality of each man's work". 1Cor3:13 "That the PROOF of your faith, being more precious than gold which perishes, even though TESTED DOKIMAZO BY FIRE, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1Pet1:7)

    Was James talking to UNSAVED JEWS? Or SAVED JEWS? Are we, Gentiles, not "co-heirs with SAVED JEWS"? Are we not "adopted sons and daughters? How then does James not apply to US?

    PS: In case you just missed it, I answered the question about 1Cor3, "he will be saved, yet so as through fire". The fire of trials refines us like gold---thus, 1Cor3:13 says THE EXACT SAME THING as 1Pet1:7!

    :)
     
  5. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Ben,

    How's your diligence performance today? Have you done your quiet time yet? Have you prayed for everything you were supposed to pray for? Read 10 chapters of your Bible already?

    [not trying to be sarcastic here but just trying to drive home a point.]

    also, suppose u have done all that, how do you know that's good enough for God who is perfect? really, I want to know, does He show u in some way perhaps speak to you and say "Ben, I'm really proud of what you've accomplished today!" are u assured of that everyday when you go to bed at night?

    What wld constitute abiding in Christ? Are we to abide in Christ 24/7? for the rest of our lives until we pass on. really, I want to know what are the standards that one must achieve each day. what standards do you set for yourself each day? what authority do u base these standards on?

    perhaps you can show us HOW to abide in Christ so that none of us here neglect that and end up in hell.
     
  6. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    2 Peter 2:20,21 -- If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

    Who are "they" here? It becomes clear when we read the whole chapter. In fact, the first verse already tells us that "they" are the "false teachers" (and the like) who deny Christ. And people who deny Christ cannot be Christians!

    * 2 Peter 2:1 -- But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

    The entire chapter talks about the terribly sinful lifestyles of these people and the punishment that awaits them. Besides introducing "destructive heresies", they are "not afraid to slander celestial beings", "blaspheme in matters they do not understand", behave like "brute beasts", "carouse in broad daylight", have "eyes full of adultery", "nevery stop sinning", are "experts in greed", "appeal to the lustful desires of sinful human nature" and so on. People who live like that are certainly not Christians, they may claim to be cos their grandpa was one, but they are deluding themselves and others.

    In fact, Peter makes a distinction between such "ungodly" and "lawless" people, and "righteous" and "godly" Christians, when he talks about Noah's flood, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. In other words, there is a clear "they" (the lawless non-believers) and "you" (the Christian) differentiation.

    * 2 Peter 2:5-9 -- if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

    The last verse in this chapter also shows us that Peter is not talking about Christians.

    * 2 Peter 2:22 -- Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

    The Bible usually refers to believers as "sheep" and non-believers as "goats" or "wolves". Here, the terms "dog" and "sow" are used. Straightaway, we know that the verse is not refering to Christians. Also, it does not say "a sheep transforms into a dog again and returns to its vomit". Once you are born again and have become a "sheep" belonging to the Good Shepherd, Jesus Christ, you cannot lose your salvation and turn back into a goat or dog again! You will never find such analogies in the Bible.

    Finally, "knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" or having "known the way of righteousness" (verses 20 and 21) does not make one a Christian. There are Bible scholars who know Jesus Christ and the Gospel, and yet are not Christians. There are people who have attended church for many years who are not born again. My friend's mum was one such person. We both thought that she was a Christian, since she had been attending an Anglican church for many years. One Sunday morning, she attended our church service. When our Pastor gave the altar call, to our astonishment, she raised her hand, went to the front and prayed to receive Jesus Christ into her heart!

    The KJV translation shows more clearly that verses 20 and 21 refer only to head knowledge of Jesus Christ and not genuine conversion:

    * 2 Peter 2:20,21 [KJV] -- For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    In fact, in verse 21, it says that the "way of righteousness" was only "delivered" to them, to which they rejected it by turning their backs on it. A person who has been shown the way of righteousness -- Jesus Christ -- yet turn his back on the Saviour, is obviously not a Christian!
     
  7. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Andrew, don't deal with me, deal with Scripture.

    "Abide in Me, and I in you; If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Jesus, in Jn15:4-6

    "Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who goes to far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD." 2Jn1:8-9

    "For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what things have been heard (faith comes from hearing), lest we drift away from it. ...how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" Heb2:1-3

    "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the EISODOS-ENTRANCE/GATE of (Heaven) will be abundantly supplied to you." 2Pet1:10-11

    "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ TO ETERNAL LIFE". Jude21

    "He who endures to the end will be saved." Matt24:13, Mk13:13.

    "By your endurance you will gain your PSUCHE-souls". Luke 21:19

    "Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and AlexanderÂ… " 1Timothy 1:18-20

    "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience..." 1Timothy 4:1-6:

    "But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." 1Corinthians 9:27

    "do not be cause for stumbling that our weaker brethren, for whom Christ died, be ruined". 1Corinthians 8:9-13

    "Obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls" (1Pet1:9---notice it is couched as "your faith", not "the faith that God has given you"...)

    "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18


    Scripture overwhelmingly supports "free will", and also overwhelmingly warns us to beware.

    What group was "beware your adversary the devil, who prowls the world like a roaring lion", to what group of people was that written??? 1Pet5:8
     
  8. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Read it again. The FALSE ONES NEVER CEASE FROM SIN (vs 14)

    The FALSE ONES seek to entice THE TRUE ONES (vs 18). "ONTOS-APOFUEGO", the TRUELY ESCAPED are enticed by the FALSE ONES.

    The TRUE ONES FALL (vs 20). They were never saved? They "escaped the defilements of the world through EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST"? How could they be MORE saved??? (Please read 2:1:3-4. THESE are "escaped the corruption in the world, by the TRUE EPIGNOSIS KNOWLEGE of JESUS". THESE ARE SAVED. Now are THESE (chapter 1) saved, but the OTHERS (chapter 2) are NOT SAVED?

    The "second state is worse than the first. Far better to have never EPIGNOSIS-KNOWN the way of salvation..." They KNEW the way of salvation, but they were NOT SAVED????

    They were saved.

    They became unsaved.

    The only way to deal with this in "OSAS", is to reject the passage entirely.

    By claiming it, in "dispenationism", DOESN'T APPLY TO US, but to ANOTHER DISPENSATION, or as another just did here, to say "IT APPLIES ONLY TO JEWS! NOT US!!!

    Both of which are faulty.

    We, Gentiles, are "co-heirs WITH Jews". We are ADOPTED JEWS. Messianic Jews, all of us.

    It applies...
     
  9. The Squelch Master

    The Squelch Master New Member

    20
    +0
    *sigh* I have only been told AGAIN clearly in a dream that what I did was spiritually fatal and that I am eternally beyond the grace and forgiveness of God. I was told that I am not wanted -that I am eternally separated from God and when I die I will eternally perish in the Lake of Fire. I really don't know what to do anymore with all these dreams etc- my faith is now virtually non- existant -if God doesn't want my faith and hope to fail, why is he allowing this to happen to me?!
    P.S. Thanks Ben for your doc. very interesting to read!- I mean it!!
     
  10. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +3
    Christian
    Ben, I truly feel sorry for you and others who believe as you do. I just pray that you have not misled others into thinking that their eternal salvation is not secure in The Lord Jesus Christ.

    **************************************
    We can lose fellowship, but never relationship. Anyone that believes otherwise is trying to add works to his salvation. God says that salvation is a GIFT and not of works. When a person realizes that his standing (i.e. relationship) is sure; then he can fully concentrate on his fellowship and day by day walk.
    **************************************


    Julie :pray:
     
  11. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Squelch Master:

    Unfortunately, our dreams are not programmable, like a VCR. They are reflections of what we have collected in our minds throughout the day, and then mixed up with memories of the past. Dream interpretation can be fascinating, and you can learn more about yourself if you understand your dreams.

    Clearly, SM, your dreams are merely reflecting your fear that you can never return to God. And I'm sure that Satan is having a FINE TIME, feeding the flames of your despair.

    Please go see a priest or a pastor. You clearly need more guidance than we can offer you here, and I do fear for your safety.


    Peace and prayers,
    ~VOW
     
  12. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    SM...
    Do you pray to The Lord?
    Have you asked to be washed in the blood of Jesus?
    Satan can make himself look like an angel, he is the biggest copycat in the world. Pray Pray Pray to the Lord God!
    GEL
     
  13. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Ben,

    Thank you for answering my question.

    You said: <Why did Jesus die on a cross?
    Jesus died on the Cross to provide sanctification to PAS ANTHROPOS ALL MEN. Rom5:18 "And as many as RECEIVED HIM, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.>

    Ben, I knew this was the issue. Your view of the cross is wrong. Rom 5: 18 is about sin, which was the only reason for the cross. Adam was made a son of God, sin separated us, the cross fixed it. That's it! I will use your scripture to prove it. We are made sons of God again because the cross bridged the sin problem. You are free to walk across that bridge is you believe it was a necessary action due to sin, taken by God, because We could not do it. One sin condemned all of us, the cross took care of all sins. How else can this be?

    RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

    The cross fixed the sin problem.

    I will pray for you. Ben, you are in the bondage of the consequences of sin until you allow the blood of Jesus to free you from the sin of Adam, the sin of today and tomorrow. Jesus said "the truth will set you free". There is no bondage from sin in freedom from sin. We are not on parole, we are free. Praise God! Salvation is not earned nor can it be given back, the cross worked.

    Blessings
     
  14. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
    +0
    Dear Ben,

    you.
    Is that necessarily a true interpretation? Not necessarily. It could be interpreted that this man was a fellow worshipper, who by his actions showed he wasn't saved. Why did he wander away? Because he wasn't attached to the Anchor of his soul, the Lord Jesus.
    Ah! THEY-WERE-NEVER-SAVED. (AND, He was not talkin' to US, only to the JEWS...) MY brethren, if any of YOU wander from the truth... But his brethren ---WERE NOT saved. And they were NOT-IN-the-TRUTH. OK, let's try something here---please pretend that they WERE saved and IN the truth, and WANDERED away. How would you re-write James5:19, to indicate this? What words would you choose, different than what James chose???


    me.
    here is how he would rewrite it:_________.
    He wouldn't.

    you.
    Verse 17 tells us that it was the people of Israel.
    And yet, in the Greek, the word for "branches", is plainly "PLURAL". I understand that to mean "individuals-FROM-the-Israelite-nation", SOME were "broken off". Remember, 11:1 clearly shows PAUL is an Israelite, and PAUL is NOT "broken-off". Why were the branches (PLURAL) broken-off? Because of unbelief. But if those branches (plural) CEASE in unbelief, they will be grafted in again. Let's discuss how this can be bent to mean "NATION-not-individuals, INDIVIDUALS CANNOT be broken off". BUT---they were INDIVIDUALS when they DISBELIEVED, thus it was INDIVIDUALS that were branches broken off. Even if it DID mean "as-a-nation", how can you separate the individuals, molding them into a mass-of-a-NATION. Even if it MEANT "nation", does it not still mean "if-the-individuals-comprising-that-nation-do-not-persist-in-their-unbelief, they will be grafted in again?" I am completely missing how this passage "disallows the concept of individuals-returning-to-salvation"...


    me.
    Ok some individuals were broken off. Can they now be grafted in again if you falter? Will God raise these individuals and reincarnate them so they can now be grafted on in your place? Hardly. It has to do with time. Israel was broken off back in 1AD. The israelites today weren't broken off, so they can't be re-saved. Besides, is there only so many places on the vine? You speak as if when it is full, some have to wait to others are broken off in order to have room to be grafted in?
    The passage is talking about peoples, not about individual salvation, and twist it as you may, your version doesn't match.

    you.
    First John starts out telling us about eternal security. Straight out he tells us that Jesus the truth which lives in us will be with us forever.
    I'm sorry, that's not what it says at all. It says, "if we say we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and the truth is not in us." Salvation is FELLOWSHIP; but if we do not WALK in that fellowship, but walk in the darkness, WE ARE NOT SAVED. "The one who says he abides in Him ought himself to WALK in the same manner as Jesus walked!". This whole book compliments Jesus' words, "You will KNOW them by their fruits!" (Please look up Luke 3:7-8!)


    me.
    Read 2nd John 1-3 again. First he starts out talking about eternal security. I'm sorry you thought I was talking about 1st John. But to address the 1st John passage you brought up, salvation and fellowship are not synonyms. That is another blatant attempt to read in to the Word what you want it to say.

    you.
    Is salvation something we have accomplished? No! We are saved by grace not by works [as even you state].
    We are not saved by grace. We are saved by grace, THROUGH FAITH. "For with the heart man believes" (his own faith, NOT "God-installed"!), "resulting in righteousness..." ("Now, faith comes from HEARING!" Rom10:17) "...and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation!" Rm10:10


    me.
    Read the Word before you stuff your foot into your mouth. The Word in Eph. 2 at the end of verse 5 plainly says: It is by grace you have been saved. Yet you take issue with me over it. Are you trying to be argumentative?
    Next you quote scripture and add your own unsubstantiated comments. Sad, especially for one who boasts of His skill.
    But you failed to answer the question! Why is that? Is your salvation something you have accomplished or do you give all the glory to Jesus? One way or the other, and no fudging this time.

    you.
    It doesn't say that those who run ahead were ever saved does it? No, you simply read that into it. What it does say, it says plainly: Those who do not continue in the teaching of Christ are not saved [does not have God]. Those who do show that they are saved [in that they have both Father and Son.]
    Actually, whatever it DOES say, it DOES say plainly. "Those who do not continue in the teaching of Christ are not saved". Yet, if they do not CONTINUE, then were they not, at first, IN THE TEACHING? In 2Pet2 are "false prophets/teaches, who NEVER cease from sin" (vs14). They were NEVER saved, NEVER "in the teaching". Thus they could NOT leave. Those in 2Jn, left SOMETHING. But you resolutely refuse to consider that they WERE SAVED. If you are to be convinced, it will not be me who does it. (But then, I am not the Savior...)


    me.
    Well you assume alot. Just because someone goes to church and is taught some of the Word doesn't mean they are saved does it? Just because someone makes a confession of faith doean't mean they are saved, does it? So these people could leave the teachings and leve the fellowship coulsn't they. And in the context of that small letter, John has already affirmed eternal security, has he not? Does he not speak of the truth, Jesus Christ, who being with us will never leave us, as in 'be with us forever'? Will He be with them in Hell or Heaven? You are prooftexting verses, and pulling things out of context to jusify your beliefs.

    you.
    Again you misread the verse. You want it to be a statement on how we stay saved but it is not. It is a statement on who is saved. Who is saved but those who continue in the faith, firmly established and not moved away from their hope. It is these people [and not those who do not continue] that God has reconciled and will present holy and unblemished in His sight.
    I'm sorry, this is presented AS a "conditional". "He will present you holy and blameless, IF you continue firmly established and steadfast, and not be moved away from Jesus". Again, if you are to be convinced, it will not be me who convinces you.


    me.
    You only desire it to be presented as a 'conditional'. It is not.

    you.
    Hebrews was written to Jews.
    No, it wasn't. It was written to CHRISTIAN Jews. Which, we, as Christian Gentiles, share in the inheritance equally...


    me.
    again, you simply desire it to be that way. It was not.

    you.
    [I[As to that totally inane reading of Hebrews 10:26. If it is true how you read it, then all Christians are lost since we all have willfully sinned. Haven't you? If not read 1st John 1:8.
    My "totally inane reading"? Heb10:26-27 is speaking about unrepentance. Thus, it is simply restating what Paul said in 1Cor6:9 and Gal5:21, that they who PRACTICE sinning have no part in salvation. If you reject this "interpretation", again, it will not be me who convinces you. [/I]

    me.
    It doesn't say practice. It speaks of our deliberate sinning. Have you deliberately sinned more than once since being saved? Yes, so have I. Does God, like a good parent, deal with us over our delibrate sins? Yes he does. He disciplines those He loves. He doesn't discipline you for obedience.

    you.
    Is salvation a trial you undergo, so that if you are succesful you get the reward? Or is it a free gift? Is salvation by works or not? You have fallen from grace Ben. Do not continue to to teach that we who started in the Spirit must continue in the flesh.
    Salvation is not by works. It also is not a free gift. It is a free gift received by our faith. And if you think trials have no part in our salvation, consider the following verses together: James 1:2-3 "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the trying (testing, "DOKIMION!") of your faith produces endurance." And, "by YOUR endurance you will gain your PSUCHE-SOULS." Lk21:19


    me.
    I never said trials weren't a part of our faith. Salvation isn't a free gift? Are you saved? Did you do something to earn it? Look at 1st Cor 2:12. "We have not recieved the spirit of the worls, but the Spirit of God, that we may understand what God has freely given us." What did you do to earn salvation? If you didn't do anything to earn salvation, then God gave it to you free. Start there and then go on to understand why a true believer will persevere.

    you.
    You say that in 2Peter, there is NOT an occurance of "truly-saved-who-return-again-to-the-defilements-of-the-world-and-are-LOST". Let's do the "pretend" thing again---let's say you are RIGHT, they do NOT fall from salvation. Please re-write verses 20-22, to MEAN that they "fall-from-salvation". What will you write, different from what Peter wrote? (Referring to the Greek is helpful. Try "Crosswalk.com" or "Blueletterbible.org".)

    me.
    You are right. In order for those verses to mean what you want, they need to be re-written. I'm not into correcting God.
    mike
     
  15. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Or believes that works has always been a part of salvation! I see no problem with this, although I know many here do.

    -Chris
     
  16. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
    +0
    Dear Ben,

    you.
    From post #131:
    Why do you believe? Do you believe because you choose to?
    Yes.


    me.
    The foundation of your belief is not because you know the Gospel to be true, but rather only because you chose to? No wonder you think you could lose your salvation. Why did you chose to believe?

    you.
    If you are as He was in this world, why do you think you might come to disbelieve? Take two men, both Christians, one is diligent, one is not.
    I have free will. Do you not read the many exhortations of Paul to "walk rightly"?


    me. I asked this question to expose you. You exposed yourself as one under law. Why does one man go to heaven and another doesn't? You replied basically: one walks rightly. You need saved.

    you.
    Then those in heaven have something to boast about over those in hell. Not just the cross of Jesus, or the grace of God, but the fact that they are in heaven because they were more diligent than their former brothers and sisters in Christ who failed to be as diligent as they. Are you comfortable with that aspect of your theory?
    Diligence and "abiding-in-Christ" is one-in-the-same. Salvation is "abiding in Christ, and He in you". It is NOT "just the Cross of the grace of God" that saves me, it is HE who saves me THROUGH MY FAITH. "For by grace are you saved through faith". "If we confess Jesus as LORD (faith) and believe God raised Him from the dead (grace) we will be saved." Salvation is always two things---God's grace, received through our faith. Faith that "endures", faith that is "steadfast and firmly established and not moved away from the Hope of the Gospel (JESUS!)".


    me.
    Then you boast about your diligence. You boast in more than the cross. Sad.

    you.
    Were you not an enemy of His before salvation? So He has persuaded you of the truth, how is that installing salvation in you against your will? Good trees have good fruit. Children who disobey should be disciplined. If a parent does not properly raise a child, do you think the child is at fault? Raise a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it. If God can persuade you His enemy to trust Him, why couldn't He persuade you to always trust Him now that you are a new person, with a new heart and a new spirit and not the spirit of rebellion?
    Let us contend only with Scripture. Scripture says that before I was saved, I was an enemy. But when His word sparked conviction in my heart, and my heart believed, my faith received His salvation. By receiving HIM INTO MY HEART!


    me.
    Are you saying that before He saved you, you changed your mind about being his enemy?

    you.
    The worth of all this maturity driven admonishments is so God can bring us to that maturity and conformity to Jesus. The word to those who show no maturity is not, You may lose your salvation, but, examine yourself to see if you really are His. All those who are put off the works of the flesh, albeit, over and over again, even as a child learns to act more mature as he is guided by loving parents.
    God has "predestined us to be Christlike"---on the FOUNDATION of our belief. If we cease to believe and reject Him from our hearts, He will cease to lead us toward maturity. Remember, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion", is followed 3 verses later by a prayer that we remain in salvation...


    me.
    No, our foundation is not us. Our foundation is Jesus and what He has done for us at the cross. That is why we boast only of the cross. No wonder you think you still might go to hell if your foundation is other than the Rock, the Lord Jesus Christ.

    you.
    You boast today that you will escape your deserved fate on Judgment Day because you believe Jesus died for those sins which condemn you, do you not?
    Yes. BECAUSE I believe...



    Faith is knowing what you hope for and being sure of what you do not see. Do you know as a truth that you will be in heaven?
    Yes. Because of JESUS-IN-ME. 1Jn5:12-13


    me.
    Than you are an eternal securist. Welcome to the OSAS club.


    you.
    But if you might go there, why do you boast you are not going there ["I am saved!"] If your future is contingent on your unknown choices, than do not boast of that future, do not make claims on that future. You are only guessing you will go to heaven.
    My "eternal future" is founded upon that belief. Because salvation is JESUS-IN-US, FELLOWSHIP, which is received by belief, what happens if I disbelieve and "grieve the Holy Spirit"? Will that "seal" still survive? Eph4:30 (That SEAL is FOUNDED on MY BELIEF Eph1:13)


    me.
    What happens if you later disbelieve under your theory? I don't know, you have me confused. You just claimed you were sure you were going to heaven.

    I guess you aren't sure you are saved then? Since you could disbelieve and go to hell, right? Last time I thought about it, those in hell aren't saved.

    So you claim you are saved from judgment that sends men to hell, but you might go there. Sounds like you are not yet saved from judgment and you could end up in Hell. So why do you boast that you won't?

    Now I boast that I won't go to hell because I trust in Jesus and He has saved me from my future deserved condemnation. He paid for all my sins at Calvary. I can boast that I'm going to heaven and boast only in Jesus.

    If Jesus were to let me down of course, I won't make it to heaven. But my faith is in Jesus alone, my only savior!

    But now you, that is quite a different story. You can't boast in Jesus alone. Your salvation has you [your choices]as its foundation. If you fail to go to Heaven, it will be because of something you did or failed to do.[salvation by works]. So when you boast "I am saved!", you are assuming you won't let yourself down. You are putting your faith not just in Jesus, but also in yourself. How sad.

    you.
    You are not just trusting God to deliver you then, but you are also trusting you will be diligent. Trust only in God my friend and stop preaching that He might damn those He loves.
    Do you dispute Peter's words??? 2:1:10-11


    me.
    Peter is not talking about losing salvation. He is talking about the richness of your welcome. You do not understand Peter's words.

    mike.
     
  17. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    How can there be salvation for those who have fallen, those who have been cut off from the source of all salvation?

    We will see eternal life if we, "continue in his kindness." If not, we will be cut off, but we can be brought back into fellowship/salvation. Without fellowship with Christ, there is no salvation.

    Neal
     
  18. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Thank you for the sentiment. But it doesn't matter what you think of me. Deal with Scripture, not with me...
    That is the point. The Cross took care of all sins, of all men, for all time. Are all then saved? No. Why not? What differentiates the "men-whose-sins-are-forgiven-them" and "men-whose-sins-are-NOT-forgiven"? What? Is it not simply, BELIEF? And the unavoidable repentance that true belief, CAUSES? You speak the position beautifully. We ARE free to walk across that bridge, that "cross-of-salvation/forgiveness", that "act-of-righteousness-that-WE-COULD-NOT-do"...
    Exactly my point. In trying to "re-write it to mean FALL-FROM-SALVATION", it becomes clear that it already is worded to mean exactly that---it cannot be improved.
    Ah---so, then, when he says, "Do not be conceited, but fear; they were broken off for their unbelief, you stand by your faith; if God did not spare the natural branches (plural), neither will he spare you (a wild olive, singular); Behold then the kindess and severity of God; to those who fell, severity; but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness---otherwise YOU ALSO will be cut off." But this doesn't mean that we-Gentiles-individuals-can-be-cut-off? This doesn't apply to us today? I think it does...
    "And the Word of Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested in us---what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." 1Jn1:2-3,6

    Salvation and fellowship with God through Christ, are DIFFERENT Salvation and fellowship are NOT THE SAME? I "read things into the Word that are not there"? I think not...
    The work of my salvation was done entirely by Jesus, from the Cross---I did nothing. Yet I am saved by my own belief. Which caused me to be "BORN AGAIN", which is to say, "surrendered-to-Christ". Thus the duality of the position---I accomplish nothing towards my salvation, it was all done by Jesus. AND I accomplish EVERYTHING towards my salvation, in that I believe and receive Him and abide in Him. If "accomplish" was not part of the "salvation-walk", why is the word used by John in 2:1:8?
    So, "WATCH YOURSELVES, that you might not lose what we (you) have accomplished"---this was not written to SAVED PEOPLE. That just doesn't make sense... Besides, John starts this letter, speaking to "The chosen lady and her children". That is not "the true church"?
    One of us is. ;)
    "He will present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED you continue steadfast and not moved away from Jesus..." This is NOT a "conditional". Remind me who is "prooftexting and pulling out of context"? Besides, this is only one verse of many...
    So, continue sinning willfully is DIFFERENT than practicing sin? I think not...
    I have started, and finished, with Scripture. We do NOTHING to EARN salvation. But we DO something to ACQUIRE salvation---we receive JESUS. By our OWN FAITH/BELIEF. Thus we persevere, when our FAITH/BELIEF perseveres.
    On the contrary---in trying to "re-write them to mean FALLING FROM SALVATION", we discover they already SAY THAT, in bold and clear words. We could not improve on what is written to make it say FALL-FROM-SALVATION. When you read in Greek, it becomes impossible to contend the "ONTOS-APOFUEGO" truly saved through the "EPIGNOSIS" true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, it becomes impossible to contend THEY WERE UNSAVED. It is equally impossible to contend THEY NEVER LOST SALVATION.
    Please cite Scripture for support, explaining in the process how you accomodate that passage about "FELLOWSHIP" in 1Jn1 that I quoted above...
    Alas, you have exposed me for what I am---a believer in the testament of Paul, who separates the two approaches of life: walking in the FLESH which is DEATH, and walking in the SPIRIT which is LIFE (Rom8:13). By walking in the Spirit I am surrendered to Christ, allowing HIM to do the work of salvation IN ME. Which, seems to be, what Jesus also preached. But you think this is wrong...
    If my "diligence" is nothing more-nor-less than abiding in Him, allowing CHRIST to live in me and work through ME, then the only thing I can boast about, is HIM IN ME! But you believe there is no diligence required to "abiding in Him". Jude obviously meant something else when he said: "KEEP yourselves in the love of God"---because we KNOW that you can never become UNSAVED. "He will never leave nor forsake you" is obviously irreversable, "YOU will never leave nor forsake HIM"...
    No---I am saying that because I changed my mind about being an enemy, I am saved. Rom10:10. (Look this up...)
    If salvation is "ABIDING IN CHRIST", should I not heed Jesus' own words: "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cut off as a dried branch and dries up; they are gathered and cast into the fire, and burned" ???
    I am sure of my salvation because of "Christ IN ME". Because of my belief. "HE who has the Son HAS THE (eternal) LIFE!" But if I then disbelieve, if I am NOT steadfast BUT am moved away from the-hope-of-the-Gospel-JESUS, then my surety turns to smoke and blows away...
    Jesus will never let us down. He will "never leave us nor forsake us". But what if WE leave HIM? Will He not remain faithful, even if we are faithless and deny Him and perish? 2Tim2:11-13
    Then teach me what Peter really meant. Peter said, "The FALSE ones seek to entice the ONTOS-APOFUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED (2:2:18). They who HAVE escaped through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS" (2:2:20) then "become again entangled in the defilements of the World and overcome" (2:2:20). "The second state is worse than the first." (2:2:20) "Far beter to have never EPIGNOSIS-KNOWN the way of salvation, than, having KNOWN it, to turn away from the Holy Commandment." (2:2:21)

    Teach me how I am reading this wrong---help me to understand how this is only speaking of "the richness of our welcome"?
     
  19. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Touche', Neal! :)

    Squelchmaster, there is a "catch" in your heart. An unwillingness to approach God in surrender. I don't know why---you already know God is real, that Jesus is God and salvation---but you say that "you will not come to Him unless He comes to you first". Is it possible, that He is already coming to you, if we-who-are-your-friends, are indeed "Spirit-lead"?

    I second what VOW said. Dreams are manifestations of our unconscious. You are convinced that you are "beyond salvation", that is reflected in your dreams. And then, there are the "four forces" at work in your life. God, yourself, peers, and in last place, evil. Do not give evil higher place than it deserves.

    Don't give up on God, Sqm; for He has not given up on you...

    :)
     
  20. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Really? Let's say you are RIGHT, they were NOT Christians. Now, work with me here, pretend they WERE Christians. How would you re-write verses 18-22, to CHANGE the meaning to SAVED-CHRISTIANS-WHO-FALL? What words will you use, DIFFERENT than what Peter used? "

    Ben, did you not see the clear biblical answer I gave from John?

    "What if I REJECT SALVATION? If I deny Christ and perish, has God lost His faithfulness? NO! Has He revoked my salvation? NO! It is ME who has REJECTED IT!!!!! By disbelief! "

    If you don't want to believe what Paul wrote that's up to you :) It plainly says just what I quoted. Its UNREVOCABLE. Ie you can't give it back.
     
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