Can you lose your salvation??

[kern]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Well the wierd thought to me is that if you die while you are sinning, even after a perfect life, you don't go to heaven...either that or you add additional docterine to make it all better.

Note that for Catholics this only applies for a mortal sin. If you die in the process of comitting venial sins you're fine (after a short stay in purgatory, of course).

But I'm not 100% sure of the official teaching on this -- if someone who is Catholic dies in the process of murdering someone, are they unsaved? This seems to be the implication of the teachings, and I have no problem with it. I just don't want to misrepresent the church's position.

-Chris

 

[LouisBooth]

well they also view the 7 deadlies..so a fat guy having a heart attack might fall under the same thing..right? or have I just seen "seven" too many times.. hahahahaha

 

[VOW]

To Kern:

I think a Catholic who has lived an exemplary life who dies in the middle of murdering someone would definitely be given a chance to discuss the matter with God. Either there are extreme extenuating circumstances, OR the person has lost all his marbles entirely, and both cases would warrant a closer look.

There used to be a hard line taken by the Church with suicides. Thank God, compassion has stepped in. It's difficult enough for the surviving members of the family, without the priest saying the dead person must be buried in unconsecrated ground. I think the viewpoint now is that a suicide is a troubled person, and who would need the love and forgiveness of God more?


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[LouisBooth]

"I think a Catholic who has lived an exemplary life who dies in the middle of murdering someone would definitely be given a chance to discuss the matter with God. Either there are extreme extenuating circumstances, OR the person has lost all his marbles entirely, and both cases would warrant a closer look. "

VOW, can we see scripture for that, or is it sacred tradition? (serious question)

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben johnson, are you a soul winner(a witness for Jesus Christ)?

If you're not I can understand why from your posts.

Please say what you intend to say, directly. Am I not a "soul-winner" because my grasp of the Gospel differs from yours? I have demonstrated that grasp with vast Scriptural references. If I err, please help me to see the err of my way.

Nor does He mean here that sin will send you to hell? Did He say that "we can save people"?
No - it's about loving your brother in sin.

Do WORKS save you? No. On that, we all agree. Yet, James very clearly says, "Faith without works ME DUNAMAI can NOT save you, CAN IT!". It is not the works that will save you, it is the kind of heart that the works TESTIFY. A saved heart will do good works. In Jesus' own words: "You will know them by their fruits. No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit." Matt7

Likewise, in 5:9 and 5:12, James is warning about FRUITS, just as clearly as Peter warns in 2:1:10-11. And as Paul warns in Gal5. Somehow you have diffused Jms5:19-20, to NOT-REALLY-MEAN-HELL, with the use of two devices:

1. He is speaking metaphorically as in verses 9 & 12 (I just explained that, "FRUITS"), so doesn't mean-what-he-seems-to-say.

2. It's not POSSIBLE for US to save anyone, so it's DOUBLE metaphorically. Ignoring of course the obvious, "he-who-turns-BACK-the-sinner-TO-THE-TRUTH", HAS "saved his soul", in the sense that it's in CAUSING him to return to JESUS and to return to SALVATION---never denying that JESUS really DOES THE SAVING

There is nothing in James that changes the message Jesus gave us. He came to save the lost, not to lose the saved.

James says "saved a PSUCHE-SOUL from THANATOS-DEATH". Please us an online interlinear ("Crosswalk.com" is a good one, "Blueletterbible.org" is another), and look up the Greek. Then help me to understand how "James didn't really mean what he SAID...

Hi, Richard! Some contend that Rom11 speaks to "Israel-as-a-NATION", but it clearly differentiates between BRANCHES (if it had meant A people it would have been SINGULAR) and YOU a WILD BRANCH. I take the meaning of verse 23 to be just as plain and simple as it was written: "They were broken off because of their UNBELIEF. Do not be proud, but tremble---for if GOD did not spare the natural branches, NEITHER WILL HE SPARE YOU! OR, if they do not CONTINUE in their UNBELIEF, they will be GRAFTED IN AGAIN". (They will become saved again---just as did the "Prodigal Son", who was "ALIVE, then DEAD, then alive AGAIN". The Greek specifically uses the word, "AGAIN". It means, "AGAIN".)

I don't find the principle of "responsible grace" so complex and difficult. Am I not conveying it sufficiently?

 

[LouisBooth]

Ahh..what ben misses is that first chapter of James that puts the book into perspective. Look at the analogy james uses. a person is more likely to look at a mirror and turn away and forget what he looks like then he a person is to be saved and not do works..why? Because like ben says it is impossible not to do good works. The question then becomes can you be saved and not do good works? The answer is yes. According to romans 3:3 even a lack of faith from a man doesn't negates God's faith that saves him. Paul also points out in romans that God's gifts and call are irrovocable, ie you can't turn back from them. Just like James puts it, you can't loose your salvation, if you do, then it was dead to begin with

Another point Ben leaves out is the concept of a new creation in Christ. It is very clearly stated by Paul that once you are a christian, you are a new creation, the old is dead and gone. It is not possible for you to return to it.

 

[Ben johnson]

Actually, James very clearly speaks of "falling-from-salvation" in chapter 1. "Blessed is he who perseveres under trial; for once he has PASSED, he will received the CROWN OF LIFE which the Lord has promised to those who love Him." (Is this not identical to "He who endures to the end will be saved?") "Let no one say he is tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself cannot tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. When lust has concieved, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is accomplished, brings forth death." This somehow does NOT mean "falling from salvation"? Is it not identical to, "Take care, that there not be found in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another ...lest you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end..." ???(Heb3)

As for the "mirror", contrast: "For one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides in it, not having become a FORGETFUL hearer but an effectual doer, this man shall be blessed in what he does." Is this not identical to "For he who LACKS these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having FORGOTTEN his purification from his former sins"? 2Pet1:9

It is very clearly stated by Paul that once you are a christian, you are a new creation, the old is dead and gone. It is not possible for you to return to it.

Actually, 2Cor5:17 uses "Parerchomai", which means "passed-by" or "passed away". If that "old nature" is gone FOREVER, then we are from this-day-forth, charged to be SINLESS (1Jn3:9)

Do you believe we are sinless?

The only possibility for us to sin, is if that "old-dead-nature" is NOT gone, but "walking-in-the-flesh" (stumbling) can make it alive again, that we are deceived by and commit, sin. As Paul said in Rom7 & 8.

If the "old nature is gone", we are sinless.

Which contradicts 1Jn1:8

BTW, if it were not possible to "return to sin", then please help me to understand what's happening in 2Pet2. They are "ONTOS-APOFUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED" by the "CLEAR-CORRECT-EPIGNOSIS-KNOWLEDGE" of the "LORD-and-SAVIOR-JESUS-CHRIST". But then they "are again entangled in the defilements of the world". The "Dog has returned to its vomit". Were they "not-saved-in-the-first-place"? Or did they "never-really-fall"? Or "WERE they saved but FELL from salvation"? Which of the three?

(For those who say "THEY WERE FALSE TEACHERS/PROPHETS, so NEVER SAVED", miss verse 18, where the FALSE ones entice the TRUE ones; it is the TRUE who fall, not the FALSE. The FALSE "never cease from sin" (vs14). Never.)

 

[Auntie]

Jesus said if we break only one of the Commandments, we have broken them all. And if we only think of a sin, we have already committed that sin in our heart. Jesus also said "no one is good".

Therefore, I dare any of you to tell me we are not all murderers and thieves. None of us are good, no not one.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, Aunti Belle. I don't think anyone really believes that Christians are sinless; I was only making the point that if our "old-natures" are really GONE FOREVER, then we would have no choice but to be sinless.

Paul discusses this fact, in Rom7 and 8. While we still have our fleshly bodies, we have the specter of our old, dead natures. Which sometimes CAN live, warring with our new natures. What makes the old live, is "walking-in-the-flesh". And conversely, "walking-in-the-SPirit" is identically "putting to death the flesh".

Christians sin, when we stumble. Which is to say, we "walk in the flesh", however briefly, and the old nature lives. Do we lose salvation? No. But if that sin deceives us to unbelief, there no longer abides repentance in our hearts, and the old nature lives continually...

Either we abide in Christ, or we abide in sin. our choice...

 

[Julie]

Ben johnson, are you a soul winner(a witness for Jesus Christ)?

Julie

 

[jrmorganjr]

Hi Kern,

This is a faulty assumption for some people. "born again" is not a belief of the Catholic church, and the teaching of the church is that there is no one point in your life when all your sins (past, present, and future) are forgiven.

So what was that whole Nicodemus thing about?
And what is the Catholic stance on coming to faith - all your sins up until that point are forgiven? After that it's on a sin by sin (even though we're sinless...) basis? I'm with Louis on this one. I should want to walk with Christ for love of Him, not for fear that I'll be caught out by death at a bad moment and having to stretch to completely unscriptural theology to keep God "just". How could one be sure, as we are told we can be?

Right, any disagreements with you are "verbal gymnastics".

I'm having trouble finding a non-sarcastic, Christian answer to this ad hominem attack. Could you please tell me how I might construe this to be helpful or Christlike in any way?

This thread has been characterized by scriptural verbal gymnastics by both sides of the argument - my comment was generalized commentary, and not directed to you, Kern. My apologies for causing you to stumble, brother.

 

[eldermike]

Why did Jesus die on a cross?

Why did Jesus reject the temptation while in the desert?

Why did He choose to go to a cross instead of becoming King of the world? What better system to keep all of us inline than to just take us over. Is it possible that because Jesus rejected taking control of the world in this manner, that we have seen the error in His ways and we did it for Him? That through preaching that you must know every sin that we can commit, so we can assure your salvation, we have solved the problem, and Jesus should have taken the deal instead of dieing a horrible death on a cross?

Why did Jesus tell Peter that He sounded just like Satan when Peter tried to prevent Him from going to the cross?

What is this cross thing all about? Is it much to do about nothing?

Could it be that something had to be done about the sin problem?

If that is the case,,did it work? or did Jesus fail?

In His failure have we developed ways to compensate for what God could not do? I.e. telling each other that God will not accept a certain behavior and that we must somehow make amends for it?


When Jesus prayed : "forgive them for they know not what they do", did it work or did the Father say, not until they say it? also - if they didn't know what they did, is it sin?

OSAS is not my doctrine, It's simply what happened when Jesus died on the cross. I don't even know what I do that displeases God, How can I make amends for what I do not know? Did God know something about us that we don't know? Or have we got it all worked out now after less than 1/2 the time the Jews had to work on the same problem, before the cross. We must be much smarter.

Take this as a test...see how many of these you get right.

The cross was not my choice, OSAS is not a doctrine, it's just the cross.

I am to confess that I am a sinner. if I confess that I know all my sins am I just like God? or do I need that cross just to cover the ones I have not yet discovered?

Blessings

 

[rynox]

I don't recall the message "once saved always saved" being taught by Paul. I like to refer to Romans 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[KJV, sorry] So I suppose if you reject Christ after you've been saved, I don't see why you would still be saved. Interesting topic, thanks.

~rynðx

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Ben,

One problem I see you have is in your approach to the Bible. You assume one can lose their salvation and read that into verse after verse. Using one such verse to 'prove' another such verse is a waste of time.

For example, you assume James means by 'brother' that he is speaking about a christian brother. James was writing to Jews. To him, a brother would also be a fellow Jew. To bring this Jew back to God would mean to get him saved. Not re-saved.

Is that necessarily a true interpretation? Not necessarily. It could be interpreted that this man was a fellow worshipper, who by his actions showed he wasn't saved. Why did he wander away? Because he wasn't attached to the Anchor of his soul, the Lord Jesus.

Likewise, you said this:
Hi, Richard! Some contend that Rom11 speaks to "Israel-as-a-NATION", but it clearly differentiates between BRANCHES (if it had meant A people it would have been SINGULAR) and YOU a WILD BRANCH. I take the meaning of verse 23 to be just as plain and simple as it was written: "They were broken off because of their UNBELIEF. Do not be proud, but tremble---for if GOD did not spare the natural branches, NEITHER WILL HE SPARE YOU! OR, if they do not CONTINUE in their UNBELIEF, they will be GRAFTED IN AGAIN". (They will become saved again---just as did the "Prodigal Son", who was "ALIVE, then DEAD, then alive AGAIN". The Greek specifically uses the word, "AGAIN". It means, "AGAIN".)

Your mistake is in who was cut off and who could be grafted in again. Who was cut off? Verse 17 tells us that it was the people of Israel. The ones who were cut off are dead and gone, are they not? How could they be grafted back in? What you are saying is that although God cut off an entire people to graft you, one wild branch, into the vine. That is wholly inconsistent with the passage and the idea behind in its greater context, not to mention having one singular person taking up the space of an entire people. Paul goes on to speak of both Israel as a people and the full number of Gentiles. The context of the passage is not in dealing with individuals at all. The whole chapter deals with peoples, not individuals. Ypu simply read into your doctrine.

Then you said:
quote: [from my earlier post]
Faith is knowing what you hope for and being sure of what you do not see. Do you know as a truth that you will be in heaven? No? Your position on salvation is void then of faith in God alone. You are not just trusting God to deliver you then, but you are also trusting you will be diligent. Trust only in God my friend and stop preaching that He might damn those He loves.[end my quote]
Salvation is "in Christ". ABIDING. Yet, "watch yourselves, that you might not lose what you have accomplished, but that you will receive full reward (Heaven). Anyone who GOES TOO FAR and DOES NOT ABIDE in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD..." 2Jn1:8-9 We can KNOW that we are Heaven-bound, that we have eternal life, IF (and only if) we are abiding in Christ. "HE who HAS the Son HAS THE LIFE; I write this that you may KNOW you have eternal life!" 1Jn5:12

You have butchered this text. Let us look at 2nd John.
First John starts out telling us about eternal security. Straight out he tells us that Jesus the truth which lives in us will be with us forever. Do you see any contingencies in those first few passages? There isn't any. If Jesus lives in you, He will abide in you forever.

Now let me get to your scriptures and how you treat them. First you wrongly assume that he is talking about salvation here? Why is that? It is because if he is it fits your idea of a loseable salvation. But is he? Is salvation something we have accomplished? No! We are saved by grace not by works [as even you state]. So strike one blow to this passage being about salvation. Secondly, is salvation a reward? No! Salvation is a free gift. Strike another blow against your interpretation. So is there a reward we could lose? Yes, see I Cor. 3. Read about how our works will be tried as if by fire and how some inferior works will be burnt up and we will suffer loss, BUT he himself will be saved. [Remember 2nd John 1-2]. So is there a alternative meaning to this passage that does not involve losing one's salvation but rather affirms it? Yes! Strike three, you're out.
But what about verse 9 you might ask? Anyone who GOES TOO FAR and DOES NOT ABIDE in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD, whoever continues in the teaching has both the father and the Son. That is easy.It doesn't say that those who run ahead were ever saved does it? No, you simply read that into it. What it does say, it says plainly: Those who do not continue in the teaching of Christ are not saved [does not have God]. Those who do show that they are saved [in that they have both Father and Son.]

Again you:
What is our "hope" of the Gospel? It's not "what", it's "who". "JESUS CHRIST---WHO IS OUR HOPE". 1Tim1:1 If Jesus is our hope, can you please teach me how this verse allows "eternal security": "Although you were formerly alenated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach, if indeed you CONTINUE in the faith firmlyh established and steadfast, and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the gospel that you have heard..." ??? (Col1:21-23)

Again you misread the verse. You want it to be a statement on how we stay saved but it is not. It is a statement on who is saved. Who is saved but those who continue in the faith, firmly established and not moved away from their hope. It is these people [and not those who do not continue] that God has reconciled and will present holy and unblemished in His sight.

Again you:
quote:
IT would be impossible to be saved again, since that person would have to crucify Jesus again, in order to cover the SIN/S that caused him to lose his salvation.
Exactly. The REASON it is impossible, is not from God's side. The REASON is because of their UNBELIEF. Fully knowing Jesus, they then cease-to-believe, and therefore view Jesus WITH CONTEMPT. As long as they persist in unbelief and contempt, it is impossible to restore them to repentance. This mirrors perfectly Heb10:26ff, "For if we continue sinning willfully after receiving knoweldge of the Truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins (Jesus cannot die over-and-over-again, only ONCE), but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire that consumes the adversaries".

Hebrews was written to Jews. Jews had lived for hundreds and hundreds of years under the law and the sacrifices. When they sinned they offered another sacrifice. The priests offered sacrifices daily for the sins of the people. The people offered sacrifices regulary for their own sins and then there was the yearly sacrifice in the temple. They offered these sacrifices over and over to bring themselves back to repentance. Back to repentance meaning 'right with God'. Now things are different since Jesus became the once and for all sacrifice. Getting saved over and over again for every sin was not necessary. It is impossible to save [bring back to repentance] someone who is already saved. But it is to their loss and to His public disgrace that thought so and tried to do so.

As to that totally inane reading of Hebrews 10:26. If it is true how you read it, then all Christians are lost since we all have willfully sinned. Haven't you? If not read 1st John 1:8.

you again:
Why will you not believe Scripture? The Bible says what it says. If I am "interpreting" wrongly, please show me. But when I post verses that absolutely demonstrate "free will" and "falling-from-salvation" and "abiding-or-not-in-Him", all that returns here is silence.

Hello, MJWhite. Welcome to the boards. If you will please read over the previous pages of this thread, and maybe others (like "OSAS vs FALL FROM GRACE" click here for page 13, you will see great effort in Biblical exegesis...

I hope your questions will be answered. Like, "How can totally-depraved-man EVER possess the will to accept salvation, unless God IMPOSES it on him/her?" And "are there any Scriptural examples of some FALLING FROM SALVATION?"

I am not silent. You ducked my questions, refering me to someplace else and using as an example a question I never asked. Go back to my post and answer the questions, or are they too tough?

in Jesus,
Mike

I just went to where you sent me [(like "OSAS vs FALL FROM GRACE" click here for page 13], and you answer none of my questions. So I expect an answer to my post #131.

 

[mjwhite]

Dear Ben,

I don't want you to hear silence.
You said:
Actually, James very clearly speaks of "falling-from-salvation" in chapter 1. "Blessed is he who perseveres under trial; for once he has PASSED, he will received the CROWN OF LIFE which the Lord has promised to those who love Him." (Is this not identical to "He who endures to the end will be saved?") "Let no one say he is tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself cannot tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. When lust has concieved, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is accomplished, brings forth death." This somehow does NOT mean "falling from salvation"? Is it not identical to, "Take care, that there not be found in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another ...lest you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end..." ???(Heb3)

my reply:
Is salvation a trial you undergo, so that if you are succesful you get the reward? Or is it a free gift? Is salvation by works or not? You have fallen from grace Ben. Do not continue to to teach that we who started in the Spirit must continue in the flesh.

As to the hebrews 3 passage. Hebrews was written to Jews. Jews were people who saw themselves as God's chosen people. But then a new age came and those who thought they were His needed to turn to Jesus. Again the passage is explaining who has been saved: those who hold firmly to the end.

you:
As for the "mirror", contrast: "For one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides in it, not having become a FORGETFUL hearer but an effectual doer, this man shall be blessed in what he does." Is this not identical to "For he who LACKS these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having FORGOTTEN his purification from his former sins"? 2Pet1:9 quote:
It is very clearly stated by Paul that once you are a christian, you are a new creation, the old is dead and gone. It is not possible for you to return to it.
Actually, 2Cor5:17 uses "Parerchomai", which means "passed-by" or "passed away". If that "old nature" is gone FOREVER, then we are from this-day-forth, charged to be SINLESS (1Jn3:9)


me:
@nd Peter is not talkin about losing salvation. What is Peter's direct statement about eternal security? "In His great mercy, He has given us new birth into a living hope.. and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade -kept in Heaven for you."
So what does he mean in 2nd peter about falling? He is talking about how rich a welcome we will recieve, and not whether we will recieve a welcome at all. Compare this to 1st Cor. 3.

But notice your own words which I will gladly quote later:Actually, 2Cor5:17 uses "Parerchomai", which means "passed-by" or "passed away". If that "old nature" is gone FOREVER, then we are from this-day-forth, charged to be SINLESS (1Jn3:9)


from you:
Do you believe we are sinless?

The only possibility for us to sin, is if that "old-dead-nature" is NOT gone, but "walking-in-the-flesh" (stumbling) can make it alive again, that we are deceived by and commit, sin. As Paul said in Rom7 & 8.

If the "old nature is gone", we are sinless.

Which contradicts 1Jn1:8

me:
But the point is not 'are we sinless' BUT as you said:that "old nature" is gone FOREVER, then we are from this-day-forth, charged to be SINLESS
So yes we are charged to be sinless although we still are sinners.

you:
BTW, if it were not possible to "return to sin", then please help me to understand what's happening in 2Pet2. They are "ONTOS-APOFUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED" by the "CLEAR-CORRECT-EPIGNOSIS-KNOWLEDGE" of the "LORD-and-SAVIOR-JESUS-CHRIST". But then they "are again entangled in the defilements of the world". The "Dog has returned to its vomit". Were they "not-saved-in-the-first-place"? Or did they "never-really-fall"? Or "WERE they saved but FELL from salvation"? Which of the three?

(For those who say "THEY WERE FALSE TEACHERS/PROPHETS, so NEVER SAVED", miss verse 18, where the FALSE ones entice the TRUE ones; it is the TRUE who fall, not the FALSE. The FALSE "never cease from sin" (vs14). Never.)

me:
Peter was a Jew. To a Jew some things were unclean, ungodly and never so. Things like dog vomit and pigs.Read 2nd John. There he tells us that those who fail to continue in the Word were never saved. A dog is always a dog, a sow, a sow. But those who are saved are made anew.They have become new creatures in Christ, not vomit eating dogs and mud loving sows. Rather true Christians continue in the teaching of Christ.

Answer my posts please.

In Jesus,
mike

 

[WayneH]

MJ..

welcome to the forum -

love reading your posts - reminds Me of a great friend I met at another Forum and miss talking to...

 

[mjwhite]

Dear wayne,

feel free to talk to me anytime. my email is mjwhite_1@msn.com

in Him, mike

 

[eldermike]

Ben,

You haven't answered my questions about the cross. I believe your view of the cross is at the root of your understanding of NT scripture.

Why was the cross necessary?

The first Shedding of Blood because of sin.
GE 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them

There is still no other way.
Heb 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Who's blood will it be? remember, without blood there is no forgiveness.

JN 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Did it work? Did the blood of Jesus free us from sin?

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

How can you not know that Jesus died for your present and future sins if scripture tells you that can't cleanse them. He made all that we can sacrifice to Him, how can we decide what is perfect? Nothing was made that God did not make. If God knew that a perfect sacrifice wasn't on this earth, How can we make one? If it was here why did He die for us? The reason you do not know is your view of scripture. The cross is the point of reference in scripture.

We are sinners saved by grace (by the cross) Who among us can make a perfect sacrifice to God? Who can plead our case to God? How can I not be saved, even in sin, if I can't fix it once I have sinned? How many times was the blood of Jesus shed?

Lets look at the importance of the cross in understanding scripture. The following is an example.

"if you confess your sins He is quick to forgive them" If you view the cross as the only forgiveness of sin then you see this correctly, because of the cross He is quick to forgive but it's not because of confession that he forgives. Confession is an act of understanding, the cross was the act of forgiveness.

If you take the cross out of your understanding then you would view this as confession is the reason for forgiveness. This can't be so because Jesus did not die to give us a way to confess our sins, He died to forgive our sins. One can't see it correctly until they accept the cross as the point of reference in understanding.

Note: Jesus told us to remember His blood. He never told us to us it symbolically to forgive sin. Sin was forgiven by the power of God, not ours. That is finished. If you see it the other way you are again not using the cross as the point of reference.

IMHO - You must first accept the cross based on what scripture tells us about the cross. Then read the rest of the NT with the cross as the focal issue. Why, because Jesus said so (for God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believed this will have eternal life) He told us the cross was our point of reference.

It's all about how you view the cross. Why did Jesus die on a cross? It's the question will eternal consequences.

Satan came to steal and destroy, what? - Our first love. How does He do this? The same trick He tried on Jesus, to take the cross out of your life.

Without the cross, we are just religious.

Blessings

 

[Julie]

Ben, or others, with all due respect, Don't go running off to James, until you have read the first 2 verses, and know who it is written to.

JuliE

 

[eRev]

If we can do anything to lose our salvation, wouldn't it then stand to reason that we can do something to gain it? Is salvation probationary? In other words are we saved by grace + or grace alone? Just a something to think about.

Peace in Xp,
eRev

btw GEL, Things are going fine in the house. ThanQ for your thoughts and prayers.