Can you lose your salvation??
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You said:
ElderMike, tell me something---do you believe in "dispensationism"? That there was a different dispensation from the "Ascension" to the "Day of Pentecost"? And that James' and Peter's letters were written to THEM and not to US?
Was 2John written to that dispensation?
Do you find any objection to my assertion that "salvation is FELLOWSHIP with/in/through Jesus"?
Most people, when they read the text I'm writing on "OSAS", find that we are not in as much disagreement as they had expected...
Ben, You illogically tie belief in dispensation to a specific event. I cannot logically handle that type of question.
If you have a question, please don't lead it to your answer.
I really have trouble trying to understand your objections to my posts. Help me.
Blessings
ElderMike, tell me something---do you believe in "dispensationism"? That there was a different dispensation from the "Ascension" to the "Day of Pentecost"? And that James' and Peter's letters were written to THEM and not to US?
Was 2John written to that dispensation?
Do you find any objection to my assertion that "salvation is FELLOWSHIP with/in/through Jesus"?
Most people, when they read the text I'm writing on "OSAS", find that we are not in as much disagreement as they had expected...
Ben, You illogically tie belief in dispensation to a specific event. I cannot logically handle that type of question.
If you have a question, please don't lead it to your answer.
I really have trouble trying to understand your objections to my posts. Help me.
Blessings
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- Mar 24, 2002
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You said:
ElderMike, tell me something---do you believe in "dispensationism"? That there was a different dispensation from the "Ascension" to the "Day of Pentecost"? And that James' and Peter's letters were written to THEM and not to US?
Was 2John written to that dispensation?
Do you find any objection to my assertion that "salvation is FELLOWSHIP with/in/through Jesus"?
Most people, when they read the text I'm writing on "OSAS", find that we are not in as much disagreement as they had expected...
Ben, You illogically tie belief in dispensation to a specific event. I cannot logically handle that type of question.
If you have a question, please don't lead it to your answer.
I really have trouble trying to understand your objections to my posts. Help me.
Blessings
ElderMike, tell me something---do you believe in "dispensationism"? That there was a different dispensation from the "Ascension" to the "Day of Pentecost"? And that James' and Peter's letters were written to THEM and not to US?
Was 2John written to that dispensation?
Do you find any objection to my assertion that "salvation is FELLOWSHIP with/in/through Jesus"?
Most people, when they read the text I'm writing on "OSAS", find that we are not in as much disagreement as they had expected...
Ben, You illogically tie belief in dispensation to a specific event. I cannot logically handle that type of question.
If you have a question, please don't lead it to your answer.
I really have trouble trying to understand your objections to my posts. Help me.
Blessings
Upvote
0
LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
"Did Jesus MEAN what He said, recorded in Matt7: "Therefore you will KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS. No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit". "
umm....He is talking collectively here in the application you are using. The church doesn't produce bad fruit. People do get upset and sin, but as Christians we do not have teh death result of sin.
"The "caterpillar/butterfly" analogy is nice, but the question really is, "What does the WORD say?" "
It says you can't loose your salvation. I'm a new creation, I can't go back and recreate myself, only God can do that
umm....He is talking collectively here in the application you are using. The church doesn't produce bad fruit. People do get upset and sin, but as Christians we do not have teh death result of sin.
"The "caterpillar/butterfly" analogy is nice, but the question really is, "What does the WORD say?" "
It says you can't loose your salvation. I'm a new creation, I can't go back and recreate myself, only God can do that
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Romans -- saved by grace thru faith.
Galatians -- we began in grace, continue our walk in grace.
I.E. even how our salvation is 'kept' after we are saved is by grace, not our obedience, teachings or works.
Galatians -- we began in grace, continue our walk in grace.
I.E. even how our salvation is 'kept' after we are saved is by grace, not our obedience, teachings or works.
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jrmorganjr
Paladin
Hi Ben,
I notice you didn't answer yes or no to my 3 questions, but I think we agree there anyway. We do continue to sin, and immediate repentance is the correct response to continue in closest fellowship with God.
I'll play your game once, just to make my case. I don't see how the 2Peter2:20 folks who had "knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" but became "entangled" necessarily refers to saved folks / the elect. It could refer to people who are exposed to the information but do not get saved. Like the Pharisees Jesus confronted. They had the knowledge of Christ, they were not saved, and they were worse off than if they had not met him. So your take on it is not so plain to me as the only interpretation.
Sorry, this is unscriptural. Jesus does not say "Will have" eternal life, he says we have already passed from death into life. I have eternal life in me right now . Salvation is the covering of our sin in Christ's righteousness, such that no judgement will occur for that sin - salvation from judgement unto eternal life. I have already passed into this life, therefore I already have salvation. It's a done deal, a cashed in promise!
We still war with our old nature and sin, as you agree, but the reborn nature within us has the (eternal) life and cannot sin. That is my understanding of the 1 John passages.
Your interpretation leaves me with a bunch of difficulties I can't resolve. What happens if you die whilst sinning? You don't get the chance to repent, but you still believe in Christ as Lord & Savior. You're doomed, according to you. This makes God contradict one His promies to you. Come, let us reason together.
I notice you didn't answer yes or no to my 3 questions, but I think we agree there anyway. We do continue to sin, and immediate repentance is the correct response to continue in closest fellowship with God.
I'll play your game once, just to make my case. I don't see how the 2Peter2:20 folks who had "knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" but became "entangled" necessarily refers to saved folks / the elect. It could refer to people who are exposed to the information but do not get saved. Like the Pharisees Jesus confronted. They had the knowledge of Christ, they were not saved, and they were worse off than if they had not met him. So your take on it is not so plain to me as the only interpretation.
Sorry, this is unscriptural. Jesus does not say "Will have" eternal life, he says we have already passed from death into life. I have eternal life in me right now . Salvation is the covering of our sin in Christ's righteousness, such that no judgement will occur for that sin - salvation from judgement unto eternal life. I have already passed into this life, therefore I already have salvation. It's a done deal, a cashed in promise!
We still war with our old nature and sin, as you agree, but the reborn nature within us has the (eternal) life and cannot sin. That is my understanding of the 1 John passages.
Your interpretation leaves me with a bunch of difficulties I can't resolve. What happens if you die whilst sinning? You don't get the chance to repent, but you still believe in Christ as Lord & Savior. You're doomed, according to you. This makes God contradict one His promies to you. Come, let us reason together.
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And yet, there are those who hold to "Carnal Christianity". Who believe that becoming Christian is merely saying "THE SINNER'S PRAYER". They can then return to fornication, drunkenness and carousing, because salvation is a RELATIONSHIP but not FELLOWSHIP with God, and even if Christ DENIES you before the Father YOU WILL STILL GO TO HEAVEN.
Then there is a belief in "Eternal Security" where 1Cor5:5 indicates that "the back-sliding-person will DIE that his SPIRIT may be saved". Totally disregarding the tiny little truth, that if he DIES, he dies UNREPENTANT, in immorality WORSE THAN GENTILES. (5:1) So a "converted heart" seems to be irrelevant...
No, I asked it correctly; if I offended you, then I humbly apologize. I take the Word for God's-revealed-truth---so that whatever I may decide of myself, or supposedly from my spirit (I am a fallible Human), must be tested in light of Scripture. And if Scripture contradicts, then I side with Scripture. The assumption is that God will never contradict what He has given us in the Bible.
Correct---it is entirely by "Christ-on-the-Cross". BUT---Scripture very clearly says that salvation is TWO THINGS: God's undeserved gift-of-grace, and OUR faith, from the conviction of our own hearts. "If you confess Jesus as LORD (faith) and believe God raised Him from the dead (grace), YOU WILL BE SAVED." Always two things...
I asked about "dispensationism", because of direct verses like 2Pet2:20, and James 5:19-20, and 2Jn1:8-9. These verses very clearly speak of "falling-from-salvation". So either convoluted interpretations occur, OR the entire letters are dismissed altogether. This by "dispensationism"---"THey were for a DIFFERENT dispensation, NOT OURS!"
BTW, the "edit" button can change or even remove a redundant post. And if you wanna quote someone, type it just like this: [quote]what-you-wanna-quote (use your "cut-and-paste-function")[/quote]. Instead of "quote" in the brackets, you can use "u" for underline, "i" for itallics, and "b" for bold...
And what chapter and verse would that be?
Jude disagrees with you. (21)
Paul disagrees with you. Col1:22-23
John disagrees with you. 2Jn1:8-9, 1Jn5:12
Paul disagrees again in 2Tim2:11-13.
Peter disagrees in 2:1:10-11.
Yes. Sorry I "didn't answer yes/no", I thought they weren't simple yes/no questions. BECAUSE salvation is FELLOWSHIP with/in/through Jesus, our continual walk with Him by definition equates to our continual spirit of repentance.
Oh-kayyyy, please turn with me to 2Pet1. "...to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has ranted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust."
It is talking about "WE-who-have-excaped-the-corruption-of-the-world-through-lust by the TRUE knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". Saved. Right?
Then in 2:2:18 we see the "ONTOS-APOFUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED". Excaped what? "The defilements of the world". Vs20. How? "By the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST". The same "EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE" as in chapter 1.
To remain with "OSAS", you must either reject the entire books altogether, or else contend that there is ANOTHER WAY to ESCAPE the defilements of the world EXCEPT through JESUS (although it SAYS through true knowledge of Lord & Savior Jesus!).
I don't believe you can interpret the passage to mean "they were never saved". They were. Unless they of chapter 1 were UNSAVED...
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People who believe that they have to work at keeping their salvation after the are saved find it hard to accept OSAS becos they feel that they have accomplished much.
They have "sacrificed" or "obeyed" the rules much in order to keep themselves saved. So they can't accept that a carnal born again Christian wld still be going to heaven, cos it'll be so unfair to them. IOW the other party hasn't done enough or hasn't done "what I have done", so how cld God still accept them, they ask.
This just shows that they do not understand the first thing abt what "grace" means.
Grace = undeserved, unmerited favour.
They have "sacrificed" or "obeyed" the rules much in order to keep themselves saved. So they can't accept that a carnal born again Christian wld still be going to heaven, cos it'll be so unfair to them. IOW the other party hasn't done enough or hasn't done "what I have done", so how cld God still accept them, they ask.
This just shows that they do not understand the first thing abt what "grace" means.
Grace = undeserved, unmerited favour.
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Hey, Andrew. I don't really know anybody who believes "salvation is work"; that is, anybody in Christian churches. (Obviously Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moslems, etc do...)
We did not "work" to be saved. HE did the work FOR us. We simply "received Him by our faith". And HE saved us. Through our belief.
There also are no works required to STAY saved. But---if salvation is CHRIST-IN-US, namely FELLOWSHIP (founded upon belief), then what happens if we DISBELIEVE? Is that possible? If we do, will we remain saved? Does not Jude encourage us to "KEEP ourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for mercy of Jesus, to eternal life? And if we do NOT "keep ourselves in His love", then what?
What does "carnal" mean? Does it not mean, "still practicing sin"? How do you deal with Scriptures like, 1Cor6:9, and Heb10:26-27?
Can you please explain what "born again" means to you? (Hint: Gal2:20) And then, how a "born again person", can remain in carnality?
Ahhh, this is true. But us-who-hold-OSNAS, understand that salvation IS "Grace"---but that grace always has two other words...
...through faith...
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jrmorganjr
Paladin
Hey Ben,
I said "game" in the sense of someone who wants to do a certain thing a certain way, no matter that there are other ways of doing or seeing it. That's "his game". I recognize that you are sincere and that this discussion is pleasantly serioius.
Your argument about 2Pet1 is swapping around concepts again. No where is it stated that "true" knowledge equals faith. You can have the knowledge and not be given the faith. Again, like the Pharisees. So, as I feared, you are going to insist that your interpretation is plainly right, but mainly because it supports your predecided argument, I fear. I do not find your arguments that the entangled folks were saved / the Elect at all convincing.
There's a good question. Your viewpoint seems to say that just because you're born again doesn't mean you're part of the Elect / Chosen out / eklesios (whatever the greek is, I'm pulling on several years old memory there...).
So, yes or no, the Elect and the born again are two different sets of people? Yes or no, we are born again to God's spirit, but then God sometimes doesn't complete the work? Yes or no, God gives us faith, but then takes it away?
I said "game" in the sense of someone who wants to do a certain thing a certain way, no matter that there are other ways of doing or seeing it. That's "his game". I recognize that you are sincere and that this discussion is pleasantly serioius.
Your argument about 2Pet1 is swapping around concepts again. No where is it stated that "true" knowledge equals faith. You can have the knowledge and not be given the faith. Again, like the Pharisees. So, as I feared, you are going to insist that your interpretation is plainly right, but mainly because it supports your predecided argument, I fear. I do not find your arguments that the entangled folks were saved / the Elect at all convincing.
There's a good question. Your viewpoint seems to say that just because you're born again doesn't mean you're part of the Elect / Chosen out / eklesios (whatever the greek is, I'm pulling on several years old memory there...).
So, yes or no, the Elect and the born again are two different sets of people? Yes or no, we are born again to God's spirit, but then God sometimes doesn't complete the work? Yes or no, God gives us faith, but then takes it away?
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- Mar 24, 2002
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Ben,
I see your point, finally. You believe that "we" have faith by some decision we make.
Ben, God comes after us first. Without God we cannot have faith. Which explains all of the post from the non-believers trying to prove that God is a myth. To them this is some disease we have and it's their mission to get us over it.
If God seeks you, then and only then can you believe. I don't have faith, it was given to me.
Below is a much misunderstood passage.
HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
This verse is not about losing salvation, it's about talking people into salvation that were not called by God but were brought to enlightenment by men and not by God. The next verse confirms that. (The rain is God) If you don't have God falling on the land you can grow thorns but He will burn them.
HEB 6:7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
The next verse tells us that we can't decide who God is working on and Who's isn't being worked on (convicted). Our work will not be for nothing even though many will be thorns.
HEB 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
Salvation is by grace, as is faith. It's a gift without a return policy.
Blessings
I see your point, finally. You believe that "we" have faith by some decision we make.
Ben, God comes after us first. Without God we cannot have faith. Which explains all of the post from the non-believers trying to prove that God is a myth. To them this is some disease we have and it's their mission to get us over it.
If God seeks you, then and only then can you believe. I don't have faith, it was given to me.
Below is a much misunderstood passage.
HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
This verse is not about losing salvation, it's about talking people into salvation that were not called by God but were brought to enlightenment by men and not by God. The next verse confirms that. (The rain is God) If you don't have God falling on the land you can grow thorns but He will burn them.
HEB 6:7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
The next verse tells us that we can't decide who God is working on and Who's isn't being worked on (convicted). Our work will not be for nothing even though many will be thorns.
HEB 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
Salvation is by grace, as is faith. It's a gift without a return policy.
Blessings
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It's not that I have truly deliberately given my heart to Satan. What happened exactly was that in my mind, I uncontrolably ended up praying to Satan mentally and telling him in my mind that I gave my soul to him for all eternity- I have had to fight against continuous disturbing thoughts like this including overwhelming temptation to pray to Satan (and sentences starting off) in my mind against other Christians prayers in prayer meetings etc, for months. I have tried alll sorts of medication none of which have got rid of it and have recieved counselling from a psychologist- I tried to follow his advice though and not fight against these thoughts, but this is how I ended up in a situation that was out of control.
After this happened I was so badly messed up by this (and I knew I had done everything possible by this point to make sure that I was a genuine Christian) that I ended up verbally praying to Satan and calling him 'Lord' and asking him to give me things that God wouldn't give me- In fact I only called him 'Lord' as lip service to get what I wanted from him which didn't work anyway, but it soon started to feel like it was coming from the heart as formerly in prayers to Jesus- I was hesitant before I did it, thinking what if in the extremely unlikely event I was truly saved, but could commit the eternal sin by doing this? However I was so convinced and resigned to being eternally lost that I fell and did something that could never have happened had my faith not failed. A few days later in total resignation and despair I almost did eternally give myself up to Satan, but didn't, though there was nothing to stop me and now don't seem to be in any danger of doing so. But my spiritual life is totally destroyed, I can't call Jesus Lord anymore out of the heart, or tell him I love him like I used to and there is this overwhelming sense that I really have now finally blown the grace of God.
The only option I can think of is just to give up and let go- it is up to God to bring me back if he wants me back- it was him who allowed Satan to hit me so hard that it finally succeeding in driving me away from Jesus.
Perhaps this is God finally proving to me that I am not his and that he never wanted me.
After this happened I was so badly messed up by this (and I knew I had done everything possible by this point to make sure that I was a genuine Christian) that I ended up verbally praying to Satan and calling him 'Lord' and asking him to give me things that God wouldn't give me- In fact I only called him 'Lord' as lip service to get what I wanted from him which didn't work anyway, but it soon started to feel like it was coming from the heart as formerly in prayers to Jesus- I was hesitant before I did it, thinking what if in the extremely unlikely event I was truly saved, but could commit the eternal sin by doing this? However I was so convinced and resigned to being eternally lost that I fell and did something that could never have happened had my faith not failed. A few days later in total resignation and despair I almost did eternally give myself up to Satan, but didn't, though there was nothing to stop me and now don't seem to be in any danger of doing so. But my spiritual life is totally destroyed, I can't call Jesus Lord anymore out of the heart, or tell him I love him like I used to and there is this overwhelming sense that I really have now finally blown the grace of God.
The only option I can think of is just to give up and let go- it is up to God to bring me back if he wants me back- it was him who allowed Satan to hit me so hard that it finally succeeding in driving me away from Jesus.
Perhaps this is God finally proving to me that I am not his and that he never wanted me.
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VOW
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- Feb 7, 2002
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To Squelch Master:
God has ALWAYS wanted you back. Your bleakness is masking His call.
A few years ago, I went through a serious depression. I had panic attacks, and I was pretty useless. My mother had died, and my father was saying the probability was good that he had cancer.
I lost my marbles.
I wanted to curl up into a ball, crawl into a cave, and never see daylight again. I had a HORRIBLE feeling the world was going to come to an end. I certainly couldn't go to work, and I frightened my family out of their wits.
It took medication, counseling, a lot of love and support from my family, and time, but I eventually crawled out of that hole. As a Christian, I've ALWAYS known that God is there for me, and my relationship with Him has always been so precious. Yet, down in that pit, I could see none of His light. I sure could remember every WRONG thing I had ever done, though.
I'm Catholic. One of our Sacraments is Reconciliation. I went to Confession, and talked to the priest. I told him of all the bad things in my life I had been remembering in my depression, and how abandoned I felt by God. Oh, the priest was so comforting, so DEAR. He explained that yes, God certainly knew of all the things I had done, and He still loved me. He was there, He had ALWAYS been there, and now that I was recovering, all I had to do was LOOK. God was waiting for me with a big hug.
I cried.
The priest, after giving absolution, told me to just go sit in the Church. I was to open myself to God, and just let Him back into my life, and know that everything was okay.
You may not be Catholic, and have the option of Reconciliation. But that doesn't mean you don't NEED something of that kind. Make an appointment with a pastor of ANY Christian church. Tell him or her exactly what you have told us here. In fact, if you want the formality of Reconciliation, you can even go to a Catholic Church and speak to a priest. You don't have to be "an official Catholic" to avail yourself of the spiritual guidance of a priest. Open your heart. Let ALL of this misery out. And then listen to the healing words of God that the pastor will give you. Hear the message of unconditional love. And listen to the pastor tell you that you are not hopelessly lost.
God has the welcome mat out for you. He's waiting!
Jesus told us to knock, and the door will be opened!
Peace be with you,
~VOW
God has ALWAYS wanted you back. Your bleakness is masking His call.
A few years ago, I went through a serious depression. I had panic attacks, and I was pretty useless. My mother had died, and my father was saying the probability was good that he had cancer.
I lost my marbles.
I wanted to curl up into a ball, crawl into a cave, and never see daylight again. I had a HORRIBLE feeling the world was going to come to an end. I certainly couldn't go to work, and I frightened my family out of their wits.
It took medication, counseling, a lot of love and support from my family, and time, but I eventually crawled out of that hole. As a Christian, I've ALWAYS known that God is there for me, and my relationship with Him has always been so precious. Yet, down in that pit, I could see none of His light. I sure could remember every WRONG thing I had ever done, though.
I'm Catholic. One of our Sacraments is Reconciliation. I went to Confession, and talked to the priest. I told him of all the bad things in my life I had been remembering in my depression, and how abandoned I felt by God. Oh, the priest was so comforting, so DEAR. He explained that yes, God certainly knew of all the things I had done, and He still loved me. He was there, He had ALWAYS been there, and now that I was recovering, all I had to do was LOOK. God was waiting for me with a big hug.
I cried.
The priest, after giving absolution, told me to just go sit in the Church. I was to open myself to God, and just let Him back into my life, and know that everything was okay.
You may not be Catholic, and have the option of Reconciliation. But that doesn't mean you don't NEED something of that kind. Make an appointment with a pastor of ANY Christian church. Tell him or her exactly what you have told us here. In fact, if you want the formality of Reconciliation, you can even go to a Catholic Church and speak to a priest. You don't have to be "an official Catholic" to avail yourself of the spiritual guidance of a priest. Open your heart. Let ALL of this misery out. And then listen to the healing words of God that the pastor will give you. Hear the message of unconditional love. And listen to the pastor tell you that you are not hopelessly lost.
God has the welcome mat out for you. He's waiting!
Jesus told us to knock, and the door will be opened!
Peace be with you,
~VOW
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Excellent post, VOW! Squelchmaster, think about something for a minute? Suppose there really IS a real devil, a "fallen-angel"; who has no real power. Now suppose he was really angry at God (because of his own pride and arrogance), so that after the fall he would set out to MURDER-ETERNALLY as many people as he could. With me on this?
Now, he KNOWS he doesn't have any real power. What if he could convince someone that they were totally lost? Suppose there was a man, very much like yourself, sinking helplessly into quicksand. And there, plain-as-day is a guy in a white robe, HOLDING OUT A STRONG OLIVE BRANCH TO YOU! And he's shouting: "GRAB IT! I'LL RESCUE YOU! I CARE FOR YOU!" But that "fallen angel" WANTS you to die. What would he do?
I'll TELL you what he'll do---he'll try to drown out your rescuer's voice, he'll cover your eyes, he'll keep telling you "YOU'RE LOST! THERE'S NO HOPE! GIVE UP!!!"
...and all the while, that branch is just inches away from your hand. If you would only reach out and take it.
That's what's really happening, Squelchmaster. JESUS is holding out that olive branch to YOU. And the father of lies is FURIOUS, screaming in RAGE: "It's no GOOD! You're LOST! GIVE UP!" Lies, my friend. All lies.
Two things need to happen. The bad-guy needs to SHUT UP AND LEAVE YOU ALONE. This will ONLY happen when you CLAIM the blood of JESUS. Pray to Christ right now, ask Him to guide you, GIVE YOURSELF TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY TO THE ONE WHO LOVES YOU INFINITELY! Then TELL the devil to go away! WHEN you belong to God, the devil HAS NO CHOICE but to GO AWAY!!!
...then reach out your hand, and TAKE that branch. He's pretty strong, He can pull you from the quicksand. Do you see? He's holding a clean, white robe for you?
Maybe it will take some counselling---heck, EVERYONE needs counselling SOMEtimes. If you wanna get from point "A" to point "B" in the fastest way possible, you stop and ask directions. That simple. Take VOW's advice. And our aditional prayer for you, will be to find a real, godly, minister.
Then we read in chapter two, of a group of people who have "TRULY ESCAPED the defilements of the world through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST". Was the second group saved? Read on: "Far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them..."
But you contend they were NEVER SAVED.
the Elect and the born again are two different sets of people?
We, who are "born-again", "Christ-IN-us", are the Elect...
we are born again to God's spirit, but then God sometimes doesn't complete the work?
"He who began a good work will bring it to completion." (Philp1) But how are we "born again to God's Spirit"? Through surrender to Jesus. LORDSHIP SALVATION. And we WILL be "presented holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED WE CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE(which is to say, 'NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM JESUS!) of the gospel..."
So, NO He sometimes does NOT complete the work. If the roots are shallow, and it withers and dies, if they are moved away from Him, they are uncompleted...
gives us faith, but then takes it away?
God does not give us "faith-unto-salvation". THAT kind of faith "comes from hearing". He first reveals Himself to every man, and then allows the man (or woman) to accept Him or reject Him. Only to those who RECEIVE Him does He give the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. Jn1:12
No God does not give-faith-and-then-take-it-away. "The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". But "revokable" (God-toward-man), and "rejectable" (man-toward-God), are very different concepts...
The are unrepentant, SINCE (BECAUSE!) they "crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him up to contempt." THEY are the entire problem here. They have been "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, in falling away from the living God" (Heb3:12-13), they have become contemptuous of Christ. They WILL not repent WHILE they are contemptuous and falling away. If they continue falling away and contemptuous, they will remain thorns and thistles, and will be burned.
I agree it is a misunderstood passage. I do not believe I misunderstand it...
Now, he KNOWS he doesn't have any real power. What if he could convince someone that they were totally lost? Suppose there was a man, very much like yourself, sinking helplessly into quicksand. And there, plain-as-day is a guy in a white robe, HOLDING OUT A STRONG OLIVE BRANCH TO YOU! And he's shouting: "GRAB IT! I'LL RESCUE YOU! I CARE FOR YOU!" But that "fallen angel" WANTS you to die. What would he do?
I'll TELL you what he'll do---he'll try to drown out your rescuer's voice, he'll cover your eyes, he'll keep telling you "YOU'RE LOST! THERE'S NO HOPE! GIVE UP!!!"
...and all the while, that branch is just inches away from your hand. If you would only reach out and take it.
That's what's really happening, Squelchmaster. JESUS is holding out that olive branch to YOU. And the father of lies is FURIOUS, screaming in RAGE: "It's no GOOD! You're LOST! GIVE UP!" Lies, my friend. All lies.
Two things need to happen. The bad-guy needs to SHUT UP AND LEAVE YOU ALONE. This will ONLY happen when you CLAIM the blood of JESUS. Pray to Christ right now, ask Him to guide you, GIVE YOURSELF TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY TO THE ONE WHO LOVES YOU INFINITELY! Then TELL the devil to go away! WHEN you belong to God, the devil HAS NO CHOICE but to GO AWAY!!!
...then reach out your hand, and TAKE that branch. He's pretty strong, He can pull you from the quicksand. Do you see? He's holding a clean, white robe for you?
Maybe it will take some counselling---heck, EVERYONE needs counselling SOMEtimes. If you wanna get from point "A" to point "B" in the fastest way possible, you stop and ask directions. That simple. Take VOW's advice. And our aditional prayer for you, will be to find a real, godly, minister.
How, if you were John or Peter or Paul, how would you write words to indicate someone who's REALLY SAVED? This is why I quoted 2Pet1. "WE have ESCAPED the corruption of the world through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST". Undeniably saved.
Then we read in chapter two, of a group of people who have "TRULY ESCAPED the defilements of the world through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST". Was the second group saved? Read on: "Far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them..."
But you contend they were NEVER SAVED.
OK, tell me the truth---honestly---which of us seems to be more inclined towards "predecided arguments"? The first group was saved. The second wasn't? If Peter had been trying to communicate that they HAD been saved, please tell me what he would have had to have said, DIFFERENTLY? What words WOULD CONVEY the concept of "saved-then-lost"? What words, beyond what he wrote???
the Elect and the born again are two different sets of people?
We, who are "born-again", "Christ-IN-us", are the Elect...
we are born again to God's spirit, but then God sometimes doesn't complete the work?
"He who began a good work will bring it to completion." (Philp1) But how are we "born again to God's Spirit"? Through surrender to Jesus. LORDSHIP SALVATION. And we WILL be "presented holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED WE CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE(which is to say, 'NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM JESUS!) of the gospel..."
So, NO He sometimes does NOT complete the work. If the roots are shallow, and it withers and dies, if they are moved away from Him, they are uncompleted...
gives us faith, but then takes it away?
God does not give us "faith-unto-salvation". THAT kind of faith "comes from hearing". He first reveals Himself to every man, and then allows the man (or woman) to accept Him or reject Him. Only to those who RECEIVE Him does He give the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. Jn1:12
No God does not give-faith-and-then-take-it-away. "The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". But "revokable" (God-toward-man), and "rejectable" (man-toward-God), are very different concepts...
I disagree. The FULCRUM of this entire passage, is the single word: SINCE. What is not being understood here, is the tense of the Greek words. It does not actually say "IF THEY FALL AWAY", it really says, "WHILE THEY ARE FALLING AWAY". You contend they were never saved? They were partakers of the Holy Spirit, even though they were unsaved? Do you think the Holy Spirit indwells the unsaved??? (2Pet1:4)
The are unrepentant, SINCE (BECAUSE!) they "crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him up to contempt." THEY are the entire problem here. They have been "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, in falling away from the living God" (Heb3:12-13), they have become contemptuous of Christ. They WILL not repent WHILE they are contemptuous and falling away. If they continue falling away and contemptuous, they will remain thorns and thistles, and will be burned.
Paul (if he wrote Heb) is calling for DILIGENCE, exactly as in Col1:23, exactly as in 2Pet1:10, to make CERTAIN that we do not fall away, to MAKE OUR HOPE SURE, so that we will GO TO HEAVEN and NOT FALL. This verse supports "Free Will", perfectly...
I agree it is a misunderstood passage. I do not believe I misunderstand it...
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VOW
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To Squelch Master:
Your situation reminded me of a joke I heard years and years ago. Mind you, I'm NOT saying your situation is funny. It's truly heartbreaking that you honestly believe there is no hope for you. But Ben Johnson's description of Satan as the Deceiver brought this story to mind:
Long, long ago, a caravan of camels was being led across the Sahara desert by a tribe of nomads. They were loaded down with goods for trade. One of the biggest loads was popcorn, unpopped popcorn. Sacks and sacks of the popcorn kernals were tied to the camels' backs, and they slowly plodded across the desert sand.
They traveled the desert, and it was the hottest season of the year. And THIS season was the hottest in the memories of all the nomads. Still, they needed to trade, so all continued across the desert, in the incredible heat.
One day, the temperature continued to rise, until finally, BOOM! BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM! The kernals of popcorn had heated and heated until they finally exploded! The bags were torn, and the puffs of popcorn flew up into the air!
All the popcorn popped, and then, after flying up into the sky, the white fluffy kernals of popcorn gently floated back down to earth.
The poor camels! They thought the popcorn was SNOW, so they lay down on the desert sand and froze to death.
Squelch Master, don't be fooled by the popcorn Satan is trying to tell you is really snow.
Peace be with you,
~VOW
Your situation reminded me of a joke I heard years and years ago. Mind you, I'm NOT saying your situation is funny. It's truly heartbreaking that you honestly believe there is no hope for you. But Ben Johnson's description of Satan as the Deceiver brought this story to mind:
Long, long ago, a caravan of camels was being led across the Sahara desert by a tribe of nomads. They were loaded down with goods for trade. One of the biggest loads was popcorn, unpopped popcorn. Sacks and sacks of the popcorn kernals were tied to the camels' backs, and they slowly plodded across the desert sand.
They traveled the desert, and it was the hottest season of the year. And THIS season was the hottest in the memories of all the nomads. Still, they needed to trade, so all continued across the desert, in the incredible heat.
One day, the temperature continued to rise, until finally, BOOM! BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM! The kernals of popcorn had heated and heated until they finally exploded! The bags were torn, and the puffs of popcorn flew up into the air!
All the popcorn popped, and then, after flying up into the sky, the white fluffy kernals of popcorn gently floated back down to earth.
The poor camels! They thought the popcorn was SNOW, so they lay down on the desert sand and froze to death.
Squelch Master, don't be fooled by the popcorn Satan is trying to tell you is really snow.
Peace be with you,
~VOW
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jrmorganjr
Paladin
So, the elect can become the unelect.
and then
A contradiction.
As for how it could have been stated more clearly, how about "the Elect, who have lost their salvation..." or "Those born again in Christ's spirit, yet who have thrown away their salvation unto hell and judgement" or a million variations.
Dear brother, I commend you on your exhortation and encouragement to TSM. It uplifted me, may God's grace & peace be on you for doing His good work. But we do cannot seem to agree on what constitutes a legitimate discussion, so I will leave off discussing this issue for a while with you. May God open both our eyes to His Truth.
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Well the truth is IF Jesus calls me back, I will certainly come back to him. I never wanted to lose him.
But I haven't got the faith at all anymore to come back to Jesus otherwise, unless he makes it clear to me personally that I can be forgiven and brought back even after this.
But I haven't got the faith at all anymore to come back to Jesus otherwise, unless he makes it clear to me personally that I can be forgiven and brought back even after this.
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Ben,
-----------
There also are no works required to STAY saved. But---if salvation is CHRIST-IN-US, namely FELLOWSHIP (founded upon belief), then what happens if we DISBELIEVE? Is that possible? If we do, will we remain saved?
------------
Firstly, you are trying to predict the future. Secondly, you are saying that Jesus is not the one who keeps you believing but you yourself thru your will power, obedience, efforts or whatever to stay in the faith.
So perhaps when you go to heaven, God might pat you on the back and say "well done, your salvation is Jesus plus you." ie saved by grace + Ben's obedience.
Do u think God will share the glory of his son with you? How do you know that your 'desire' to read the Bible, pray, go to church, obey his promptings etc are not put there by the Holy Spirit as He works in and thru you. Or are you going to credit yourself for your obedience?
and to answer your question here's part of what I've written on my website:
Renouncing Christ
Christians who believe that salvation can be lost generally agree that there are many clear verses in the Bible that support eternal security. However, they draw the line when it comes to wilfully renouncing Christ. In other words, these same verses don't "cover" the Christian who decides to give up Christ.
But which true-blue, born-again Christian would, in his right mind, suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self-contained decision.
This being the case, let's suppose that the Christian does renounce Christ and lose his salvation. This would mean that the "demons" and "powers" responsible for influencing him have succeeded in seprating him from the love of God. This, however, is in direct contradiction to Romans 8:38,39!
* Romans 8:38,39 -- For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
He is faithful, not us
Many Christians think that after they are saved, they need to work at keeping their salvation, or they might lose it. This is really no different from trying to earn salvation, which can only be received by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8)! We began in grace, and it is grace that will lead us home, not our obedience.
Galatians 3:3 -- Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Also, they are foolish to think that they have the power or will to "maintain" their salvation. It is God who keeps them saved! It is God who is always faithful, not them!
Philippians 1:6 [NIV] -- being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
In the above verse, we are even exhorted to be confident (not unsure) of the fact that it is Jesus (not us), who will definitely bring the good work begun in us to completion!
There are so many other verses that assure us that God is the one who keeps us saved:
* Romans 14:4 -- Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
* 1 Corinthians 1:8 -- He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
* 1 Corinthians 10:13 -- No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
* 2 Corinthians 1:21 -- Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.
* Philippians 2:13 -- for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
* 2 Thessalonians 3:3 -- But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
* 2 Timothy 4:18 -- The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
* Hebrews 2:18 -- Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
* Hebrews 7:25 -- Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
* Jude 1:24 -- To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--
So Ben, relax and rest in the finsihed work of Christ.
-----------
There also are no works required to STAY saved. But---if salvation is CHRIST-IN-US, namely FELLOWSHIP (founded upon belief), then what happens if we DISBELIEVE? Is that possible? If we do, will we remain saved?
------------
Firstly, you are trying to predict the future. Secondly, you are saying that Jesus is not the one who keeps you believing but you yourself thru your will power, obedience, efforts or whatever to stay in the faith.
So perhaps when you go to heaven, God might pat you on the back and say "well done, your salvation is Jesus plus you." ie saved by grace + Ben's obedience.
Do u think God will share the glory of his son with you? How do you know that your 'desire' to read the Bible, pray, go to church, obey his promptings etc are not put there by the Holy Spirit as He works in and thru you. Or are you going to credit yourself for your obedience?
and to answer your question here's part of what I've written on my website:
Renouncing Christ
Christians who believe that salvation can be lost generally agree that there are many clear verses in the Bible that support eternal security. However, they draw the line when it comes to wilfully renouncing Christ. In other words, these same verses don't "cover" the Christian who decides to give up Christ.
But which true-blue, born-again Christian would, in his right mind, suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self-contained decision.
This being the case, let's suppose that the Christian does renounce Christ and lose his salvation. This would mean that the "demons" and "powers" responsible for influencing him have succeeded in seprating him from the love of God. This, however, is in direct contradiction to Romans 8:38,39!
* Romans 8:38,39 -- For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
He is faithful, not us
Many Christians think that after they are saved, they need to work at keeping their salvation, or they might lose it. This is really no different from trying to earn salvation, which can only be received by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8)! We began in grace, and it is grace that will lead us home, not our obedience.
Galatians 3:3 -- Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Also, they are foolish to think that they have the power or will to "maintain" their salvation. It is God who keeps them saved! It is God who is always faithful, not them!
Philippians 1:6 [NIV] -- being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
In the above verse, we are even exhorted to be confident (not unsure) of the fact that it is Jesus (not us), who will definitely bring the good work begun in us to completion!
There are so many other verses that assure us that God is the one who keeps us saved:
* Romans 14:4 -- Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
* 1 Corinthians 1:8 -- He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
* 1 Corinthians 10:13 -- No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
* 2 Corinthians 1:21 -- Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.
* Philippians 2:13 -- for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
* 2 Thessalonians 3:3 -- But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
* 2 Timothy 4:18 -- The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
* Hebrews 2:18 -- Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
* Hebrews 7:25 -- Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
* Jude 1:24 -- To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--
So Ben, relax and rest in the finsihed work of Christ.
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