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Can you lose your salvation??

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Sandman777, Jan 2, 2002.

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  1. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    It's not my choice, Andrew. It's what the Word says. And it can never be lost, it can only be rejected. Not forsaken-by-God, but fallen-away just as Heb3:12-14 very plainly says, "by hearts hardened by the deceitfulness of sin in FALLING AWAY FROM THE LIVING GOD".

    Tell me something, Andrew. You contend that "OSAS people have a closer walk with Him". But, "OSAS" believes that salvation can NEVER be forsook; while, "OSNAS" contends that salvation is FELLOWSHIP, with/in/through Jesus. We believe that we are commanded to "abide in Christ and His teachings", to "be diligent about our calling and election". Which view do you really think encourages closeness to God? In the first, even if you COAST and RELAX you will still be saved. In the second, only if you ENDURE and NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL (Col1:22-23) will we be saved. Which one encourages closeness to God?

    Andrew, how do you deal with all of the verses that speak of "falling-from-salvation"?
     
  2. The Squelch Master

    The Squelch Master New Member

    20
    +0
    The tragedy of all of this was that I did ask Jesus to change me, long before this happened- I gave up everything too about me and in my life to the control of his Holy Spirit deliberately forever and meant it- but Jesus did not deliver me and let me fall. He allowed Satan to completely crush me and eventually after 18 months my faith finally failed. If it hadn't I would never have fallen and done this.
    I only remembered this AFTER I'd done this, if I had realised what this verse said before, I would NEVER have committed this, I would have fought this sin to the death.

    Now in the light of Revelation 14 v 9-13,

    "If ANYONE worships the beast...... he too will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those worship the beast and his image or for anyone who recieves the mark of HIS NAME. This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus."

    Why should this be the eternal sin later and not now? It is EXACTLY THE SAME THING! And God's laws don't change!
    I'm pretty convinced I'm eternally lost. If falling and worshipping the beast (Satan) is the eternal sin then, why isn't it now?!
    I've asked Jesus sincerely to forgive me (and many times not once), to give me a second chance, told him the truth that I didn't mean to fall and would never have done so had I not been led to to believe I was eternally and finally condemned already, but no assurance or hope in my spirit whatsoever.
    I don't know what to do anymore, nothing may be able to separate US from the love of God in Christ Jesus, but we can separate ourselves from it- Satan finally overcame me and I surrendered to him.
     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    In all honesty, I'm not really sure how to answer this. I believe that during "The Tribulation", different rules apply. At this moment, we live in the "Age of Grace". It seems that during the Tribulation, accepting the Mark will be spiritually fatal. I don't believe there exists such condemnable acts NOW.

    Jesus spoke of an "unforgiveable sin". Again, I don't have ALL the answers. In context, He was condemning the Pharasees for claiming He cast out demons by the prince of demons. Which was in essence calling the Holy Spirit, EVIL. But I've been convicted in my spirit, that the real crime was their rejection of God. In Heb6, it says "it is impossible to restore to repentance WHILE they fall away, SINCE they crucify Christ anew and hold Him up to contempt". Just as Heb3 says, they are "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin", and become contemptuous. Thus---the impossibility of their return-to-salvation, hinges on the single word: SINCE. SINCE they are contemptuous, THEY REMAIN unrepentant and unsaved. Clearly, if they return to belief, THEY WILL BE SAVED!!! Just as the Prodigal son was.
    You've been dealing with some very dangerous things. So you cannot trust how you "feel in your spirit". Please open your Bible and read, right now: Eph6:10-20, esp 12. Do you understand? By surrendering to satan, you gave him license for your soul. You gave him permission to mess with you more than anyone else. Now read, 1Jn4:4 "You have overcome them---because greater is He that is within you than he that is in the world! You're gonna hafta actually claim the blood of Jesus. "I rebuke you by the blood of Jesus! I command you by the name of MY SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST! GO AWAY AND LEAVE ME ALONE" I've heard of people who've been into occultic things, the demons really try to get them back. Covers fly off in the middle of the night. Weird things happen. (Read "The Beautiful Side of Evil" by Johanna Michaelson) Their solution? JUST THE WORDS I SAID! It worked for them, it will work for you. If you have given yourself to God, then don't worry if you don't FEEL close. Just pursue Him, read the Word, and HE WILL MEET YOU WHERE YOU STAND! PROMISE!

    You're gonna hafta rebuke the devil and command him to flee---but don't get too focused on him. Read Luke 10:17-19. Do you see? The devil HAS NO POWER! It's all a LIE.

    Now read verse 20. It's the KEY. "Rejoice instead that your name is written in Heaven!" It's not "GOOD-BAD", "YIN/YANG", "GOD-DEVIL"---oh no, it's "GOD-SUPREME-BEING-ABSOLUTE-GOOD-PERFECT-LOVE-CREATOR of the UNIVERSE-OMNISCIENT-OMNIPOTENT-OMNIPRESENT"...

    ...and satan's just a fallen angel!!!!!!
    He's NOTHIN'---it's a LIE! Just spend time with God, read the Bible, and find a good church! I recommend counselling by a Spirit-filled minister! Tell him what you've told here.

    Just seek God, and you will find Him. He will find you. Both.

    He's real. Just ask Him. He created the Universe. Nothing and no one is more powerful than Him. Nothing more powerful than His love for YOU.

    Nothing EVEN COMES CLOSE! If Jesus had to die on the Cross, to save ONE PERSON---YOU---He still would have died! How can we walk away from such love!

    ;)
     
  4. The Squelch Master

    The Squelch Master New Member

    20
    +0
    Well obviously a non Christian who has not been enlightened by the witness of the Holy Spirit in their lives can be forgiven of this sin. I don't know whether a Christian can be though- it only happened because I really DID believe at the time that there was absolutely no more hope for me. God knew that I would eventually crack under these circumstances, I have managed to resist overwhelming almost unbearable temptation in this for months, but God just allowed me to be overcome and eventually totally fall away. I have totally renounced what I did for all eternity and eternally committed myself never to doing this again no matter what the circumstances are this time. I never WANTED or deliberately intended to commit the unpardonable sin. I asked God on the basis that I genuinely did not know that this was the potentially at least the eternal sin and would never have done it no matter what had I known it to be spiritually fatal, to give me one last final chance.
    The thing is in the tribulation, God and the reality of the bible will be revealed to everyone and they will have to choose whose side they will be on for all eternity, it will be that clear cut. I was a Christian and knew who Satan was and what he stood for and I was overcome by him and fell- it will be the same with those who finally give in to the overwhelming pressure to take the mark of the beast during the tribulation.
    Is there anyone who has ever been in a similar situation out there, I do not know of a single case of a genuine Christian ever committing this and ever coming back. It seems that a Christian can even reject Christ and be forgiven, but for this sin, maybe not.
     
  5. jrmorganjr

    jrmorganjr Paladin

    310
    +0
    Methodist
    US-Republican
    TSM,

    It's all the devil's lies, your fears. If you truly serve Satan, you wouldn't be having the angst you have, nor could we trust a word you say anyway.

    Ben johnson,

    I appreciate your heart for The Squelch Master, and your efforts. May you be blessed for them.

    To the thread: Let me get something straight: Are you saying that you don't sin anymore, Ben johnson? The second you sin as a Christian you lose your salvation, and then you need to be reborn again? or and then you can never come back? Yes / no answers preferred, and then explanation.

    All your interpretations seem so absolute and sharp edged. In your intial response to my post you substituted the word "faith" for "sin" in your argument - that is, conditional on faith rather than conditional on stopping sinning. You also imply(correct me if I misjudege) that the moment you sin you've stopped believing in Christ. That's simply not the case.

    You keep using the phrase "plainly states" or variations on that, when you know full well the opposing viewpoint thinks it plainly means something else. This makes it very difficult to discuss interpretation of various scriptures because you insist that your viewpoint is plainly the correct one, which puts one in the position of having to strive to correct your methods and attitude rather than the subject at hand. I don't think that leaves much room for a friendly constructive discourse, but instead a war by dialetic, contentious methods. My 2 cents on trying to build a more constructive dialog.
     
  6. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Here are examples of some that lost their salvation with Biblical reference. Just to preface: Yes, I do believe it is possible for someone to loose their salvation.


     
  7. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    The duality of our "saved-nature" is clearly portrayed in several Scriptures. Paul labored hard to explain this. When we are "born again", our old nature is dead, and we are "new creations". 2Cor5:17. YET---the old nature is not GONE, and it CAN live again sometimes. Creating within our bodies a war between the old-and-new-natures. Rom7. "Who will rescue me from this war within my members?" The answer is in chapter8. "Walking in the Spirit" vs "walking in the flesh". John mirrors this concept perfectly in 1Jn3, when he says "no one born of God sins, indeed he CANNOT sin if the Spirit of God abides in him". But just two chapters earlier is written, "If I say I have no sin the truth is not in me; but if I CONFESS my sin, He is faithful and just to forgive my sins and to cleanse me from all unrighteousness".

    Salvation is not "sinlessness". Salvation is FELLOWSHIP WITH/IN/THROUGH Jesus. Salvation is not earned, it is a state; it is not a "one-time-thing", it is a life-long walk, hand-in-hand, WITH JESUS!
    No. Christians do sin. When we stumble and "walk in the flesh". But our attitude of surrender and repentance is continual---we repent immediately, He forgives us. What separates us from unsaved, is that we do not PRACTICE sin. And salvation is ALWAYS conditional upon believing. Even in Eph1, where it supposedly endorses "predestination", and uses terms like "sealed with the Holy Spirit", it very clearly says: "YOU, after LISTENING to the Gospel, having also BELIEVED..." (1:13) Perfectly mirrors Rom10:17. Our belief is ALWAYS conditional to our salvation.
    What I would like, is for someone "of the opposing viewpoint", to explain some of the passages that I say "plainly state".

    For instance, 2Pet2. Here we have FALSE PROPHETS & TEACHERS, wno NEVER CEASE FROM SIN (vs 14). The FALSE ONES seek to entice the TRULY ESCAPED ONES (vs 18), the TRUE ONES stumble, and become unsaved (vs 20). It is WORSE than if they had never KNOWN the way of salvation. This is one "PLAINLY STATED PASSAGE". Can it also "plainly state eternal security"? How?

    "THEY WERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE"? That would be dishonest. "ONTOS-APOFUEO-truly-escaped-by-the-EPIGNOSIS-clear-and-correct-knowledge-of-the- LORD-and-SAVIOR-JESUS-CHRIST". If THESE were unsaved, then so were they in 2Pet1:4. But 2:1:4 they are ABSOLUTELY SAVED! UNDENIABLY!

    "They never really saved, they were FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS from the START". Not true---there are TWO groups here, the FALSE (who were NEVER saved), and the TRUE (who were ABSOLUTELY saved). The FALSE entices the TRUE in verse 18.

    Another "plainly stated passage" is James 5:19-20. Some say, "They never really lost their salvation!" But James says differently: "Has saved a SOUL ("Psuche", Rev20:4---same word) from DEATH ("Thanatos"---physical-with-implication-of-Hell ---see Jms2:26, "pneuma"-ghost and "nekros"-physical-only).

    How are passages like these, "plainly understood to support OSAS"???

    ;)
     
  8. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Squelch Master:

    The teaching of Once Saved, Always Saved probably creates a feeling in you of complete hopelessness, that you are eternally condemned. You see yourself in the place where Jesus said THE one sin which has the power to send you to Hell was denial of the Holy Spirit. And from what I have read in your experiences, you feel you did exactly that. You have remorse now, but you feel that remorse is not enough to remove the stain of eternal punishment.

    Is that correct?

    To my eyes, the depth of your commitment to Satan did not reach into the very bottom of your soul. Why do I say that? You're here, posting in this forum, and you aren't prosletyzing Satan's message. That says to me the Holy Spirit had an infinitesimal spark within you during your time of turning away from God. And somehow, that spark has been fanned into life. It's still feeble, but it IS alive within you.

    You are the embodiment of the lost sheep that the Good Shepherd went to find. He's looking for you now. Here Him call you by name, and reach out your hand to Him.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  9. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    You cannot lose salvation.
    Salvation is not a process, it is a gift.
    Salvation as a process = works doctrine

    Try this: When you read something such as: "will not inherit the kingdom of God" try and find a connection too: "He lost his inheritance to the kingdom of God"

    It is true that the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God but it is also true that flesh never inherited the kingdom of God in the first place.

    We cannot make it to heaven without the blood of Jesus. Not one thing you can or have done will get you there.

    You can't save sinners (us) unless you do something about sin. Jesus did that, He died for our sins. That part is finished.

    We did not stop sinning.

    If sin condemns, we are all condemned.

    The elect (you and me) are not in a process of being saved, we are saved.

    Blessings
     
  10. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Eldermike:

    Salvation defined as an event and not a process is a teaching, something which cannot be proclaimed as definitive, since it contradicts the teachings of Christian denominations that you are not a part of. You cannot make a judgment call on that. You can only express it as your opinion, or as a teaching of your church.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  11. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Vow,

    The question was: Can you lose your salvation.

    My answer was no.

    About teachings: I was taught that salvation was a gift that I could not give back. I didn't believe it for 30 plus years. My actual belief in this teaching was not due to the strength of the argument or the weight of the evidence. It came from the Holy Spirit. I believe as Jesus taught Nicodemus, we do not understand spiritual matters by teaching alone.

    Blessings
     
  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Salvation CANNOT be "lost".
    God will NEVER leave nor forsake us.
    The gifts of GOd are IRREVOCALBE.

    ...but salvation, Scripturally, is REJECTABLE. Please read 2Tim2:11-13: "For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him (we DIE with Him when we are BORN AGAIN---Rom6:4); if we endure, we shall also reign with Him ('By your ENDURANCE you will gain your PSUCHE-SOULS'---Lk21:19); if we deny Him He also will deny us (and we will NOT reign with Him! Matt10:32-33); if we are faithless (and deny Him and forsake our salvation), He remains faithful (even though we perish); for He cannot deny Himself"...

    With respect, salvation is not a work, and it is not a process. It really is a gift. ("For the wages of sin are death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord!" Rm5:23) Eternal life is not "possessed" really until death; yet, we can "possess" eternal life, now, in that we "possess JESUS". There is no process or journey in this---as John said, "He who HAS the Son, HAS THE LIFE! I write this that you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!" 1Jn5:12-13

    Salvation, the "possession" of the "eternal inheritance reserved in Heaven for us", is instantaneous...

    ;)

    PS: Try this: When you read something such as: "will not inherit the kingdom of God" try and fin a connection to: "He lost his inheritance to the kingdom of God"
    "He who LACKS these qualities is BLIND or SHORT-SIGHTED, having FORGOTTEN HIS FORMER PURIFICATION FROM SINS. Therefore, be all the more diligent to make sure of His calling and election, for as long as you practice these things (demonstrate "saved-fruit"), you will never stumble; in this way the EISODOS-GATE-ENTRANCE (and exclusively in-no-other-way) WILL BE PROVIDED TO YOU!" 2Pet1:4-11
     
  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    I don't mean this to sound bad or critical, please forgive me if I do. But---why has the Holy SPirit taught you something different than what the Bible says?

    Very good, VOW! The lost heart does not worry about eternity.

    (And I do not think his spark is so tiny and feeble...)

    ;)
     
  14. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Ben:

    True, true. His PERCEPTION of it was such, though. Remember, all it takes is faith the size of a mustard seed. To most of us, that seed is pretty doggone small!!

    I believe the testimony of Squelch Master has shown us that even that little-bitty mustard seed size spark of the Holy Spirit has been victorious over Satan.

    Praise God!


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  15. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Touche'!

    But he must now reject the lie and seize the Truth!

    ;)
     
  16. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Ben,

    I don't know how to respond to you. Your view of scripture is different than mine. My Bible says that scripture is hidden to some and revealed to others. I assume i decided to be one of those others.

    Blessings
     
  17. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    The process of salvation is amazing to me. Our growth in Holiness, which started as a tiny seed, can by the Grace of God change us completely and grow into something even more beautiful. Look at how far (hopefully) we have come in our walk with Christ. Then look at our elders in the Faith to see just how far we can go! What great things Christ has done for us! I thank you for my family, the Body of Christ. All praise be to His name.

    Neal
     
  18. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    ElderMike, tell me something---do you believe in "dispensationism"? That there was a different dispensation from the "Ascension" to the "Day of Pentecost"? And that James' and Peter's letters were written to THEM and not to US?

    Was 2John written to that dispensation?

    Do you find any objection to my assertion that "salvation is FELLOWSHIP with/in/through Jesus"?

    Most people, when they read the text I'm writing on "OSAS", find that we are not in as much disagreement as they had expected...
     
  19. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    And that, Mike, is courtesy of Mr Luther, when he stated that the Bible was capable of being interpreted by anyone, with the power of the Holy Spirit.

    These differences abound. They multiply exponentially.

    And how do you determine if YOUR Holy Spirit is "holier" than someone else's Holy Spirit?


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  20. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Vow,

    In the area of eternal salvation you either believe it or you don't. There is no expediential way to see that.

    You asked: How do I know that my Holy Spirit is holier than someone else's? Answer: There is only one God.

    You could have asked me this: (a better Christian question)
    How do I know that what has been revealed to me is truth?

    My answer is: it doesn't matter. I live a Christian life by your standards or mine. If we are saved or not saved is by the Grace of God and not our doing.

    Blessings
     
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