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Can you lose your salvation??

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Sandman777, Jan 2, 2002.

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  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    "Does He love unsaved people the same way???

    Does he love the wicked...good question, one I have of late thought about, for it he does, then he will morn for all eternity about the lost people in hell. I believe he cuts them off :) (unelected) Not sure really, still dealing with this issue. The statement made in romans 5 is made in reference and in knowledge of God's foreknowledge :)
  2. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

    I understand there are many scriptural references which support God's unconditional, unending love for us.

    But what about the scriptures which tell us to endure, run the race, stand firm, fight the good fight? Are they unnecessary?

  3. Anise

    Anise New Member


    Thank you for your response. In a sense we all die broken, in that we all die, and death is from sin. So we all need fixing that way. Or, at least we are all changed at the end, if we haven’t died yet. But I do distinguish how we are broken. For me, the brokenness I had in mind was the kind where we are not loving God and neighbor with supernatural love. This is something that some people do, and some don’t, even while still alive on earth. For me, there are degrees of this kind of loving, and there is also not doing it at all. Being broken is not doing it at all. Impediments that are hampering this love will be fixed when we die (for those going to heaven). If we are not doing that kind of love at all while on earth, if we are to go to heaven, we must start up with that kind of love, because everyone in heaven will be doing it. Only God can give this love into our hearts to do.

    You asked about how I account for being secure while here on earth if I think I can stop (while still alive) loving with that love. I am secure by asking myself, who do I trust to care for me, God or me? Obviously God. So, I turn to him and say, You are in charge. Here I am, I’ll pray and do as you ask, but you are in charge of it all. Then, why worry? There is no worry. Just follow the Spirit. There is only each day before you and the tasks for the day and the joy of each day with God.

    Note: I am prone to get caught up in stupid thoughts and behaviours, so I know that, although each day has the joy of being with God, I don’t usually experience that. This will get fixed in heaven, so I look forward to that.
  4. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Where sin abounds grace abounds more.
    Unscriptural. "For if we continue sinning willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries." Heb10:26 "What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? MAY IT NEVER BE!!!" Rom6:1-2

    We cannot be seperated from the love of God.
    Scriptural. "But God showed His love for us, in that while we were YET SINNERS, Christ died for us". If Jesus died "to provide sanctification for PAS-ANTHROPOS-ALL-MEN (Rom5:18), then there is love from God for all men.

    We are saved always.
    Unscriptural. "Brethren, if any of you wander from the truth, and another lead him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his was has saved a SOUL-PSUCHE (Rev20:4) from DEATH-THANATOS (physical/with implication of Hell) and covered a multitude of sins." "Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have gained. Anyone that goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD." "Take care, brethren, lest there be found in you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. Encourage one another ...lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end..." "You who seek to be justified by Law, you are SEVERED from Christ, you are FALLEN FROM GRACE!" "But the Spirit explicitly says that in latter times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..." Jms5:19-20, 2Jn1:8-9, Heb3:12-14, Gal5:4, 1Tim4:1

    These verses deny the concept of "eternal security". Salvation CAN be forfeited. And there are many, many more (like Col1:23, 2Pet2:18&20, 1Pet5:1,8-9, Jn15:6, on and on...

    (BTW, Louis, EXCELLENT posts over on the HS thread---Bravo!)

  5. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    I don't think so. The essense of the grace/works debate is the question of whether works are necessary to salvation... But keep in mind, even if living righteously isn't *necessary*, it's still something that God apparently appreciates. He's doing a lot for us; a little gratitude wouldn't be amiss.
  6. Da Berkshire Massive

    Da Berkshire Massive New Member

    My views on this because of experience have somewhat changed- indeed I was never convinced by OSAS and have always felt that the Holy Spirit has clearly witnessed to me that it is not the truth. In fact I no longer believe that we are finally saved in this life at all that we only get true eternal life if we remain in Jesus until we die.
    I believe that salvation is God's promise to us that providing we remain trusting in Jesus, we will die and inherit eternal life. I believe that before then we can at any time opt out of God's grace by rejecting Christ and if we continue to resist God's attempts to bring us back, we will eventually blaspheme the Holy Spirit. However God is all knowing, he knows the future, and no one can blaspheme the Holy Spirit, if despite the fact that that person has 'eternally' rejected Christ at the time sometimes for several decades, God sees that one day he will somehow be able to bring them back.
    What I mean therefore at conversion is that we are saved by default but we can at anytime cancel that salvation. No one is saved unless they remain faithful to Jesus until death or come back before death.
    For instance why in James chapter 5 v19-20 does, it talk about the sinner being brought back being saved from death? Why in 1 Corinthians 5 v5 does it say about handing the immoral brother over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and his soul saved on the day of redemption- obviously this guy could forfeit inheriting eternal life!
    I don't believe that sin causes us to lose salvation- I think that is nonsense- I believe that we are finally saved on the condition, we do not eternally reject that salvation, which is something we will always in this life have the option of doing. Neither do I belive that anyone endures to the end except by continually accepting God's grace and help to overcome sin in their lives and grow in Christ- we can always reject this and lose this help and grace in our lives.
    So I believe in OSAS but conditional OSAS providing we do not eternally reject that salvation- if we continue to reject it until death or the point of committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, we will eternally perish.
    So therefore we are not unconditionally and finally saved until after death.
    The Elect (God's true children) are those who God knew in eternity past would remain faithful to him until the end- God never chose any Judas Iscariots.
  7. Defender of the Faith 777

    Defender of the Faith 777 Well-Known Member

    United Ch. of Christ
    I'm not sure if Judas was ever saved to begin with?. He was possessed by Satan, something that cannot be done if the Holy Spirit already exists within you. Christians cannot be demon-possessed. Yet Judas was. Whenever we see Judas, it is when he is thinking of how he can exalt himself or obtain more money. We never see a pious Judas. It is an interesting thought, but perhaps Judas, a "disciple" of Jesus, never was saved, accepted forgiveness throught the Messiah.
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    "But what about the scriptures which tell us to endure, run the race, stand firm, fight the good fight? Are they unnecessary? "

    Do you tell your son or daughter to keep going even though you know they can't and won't win? Its the same reason Christ told us to be Holy, KNOWING we will still sin.

    "These verses deny the concept of "eternal security". "

    I would disagree. Where you see it denying it, I see perfect harmony with the concept of OSAS. :) Along with verses like Romans 3:3 where it proclaims that a lack of faith on the part of man does NOT nullify God's faithfulliness. Sheep are sheep forever, they do not suddenly turn into goats.
  9. jrmorganjr

    jrmorganjr Paladin

    Hi Ben johnson,

    False claim. Exactly Scriptural. My evidence, the direct quote I referred to originally:

    "Romans 5:20: Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: "

    I understand the arguments about throwing away your own salvation. I read the same passages and pull different meaning from them. I have difficulty grasping that, according to Jesus, once I believe on him I have eternal life, namely John 5:24, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Hath, not conditionally hath. It just doesn't make sense that I can have eternal life one moment and not the next. It would be the same sort of thing Moses pleaded with God over the Israelites about, saying that if God allowed them to be destroyed or destroyed them Himself, the nations would say that God hated his own people Israel and only saved them from Egypt long enough to destroy them. The more I study, the more I become convinced that Israel's exodus story and the crossing of the Jordan is a perfect, nuanced story of the individual's salvation picture. God was tempted to destroy His "saved" people, even though they were steeped in sin, but He did not hand them over to their own weaknesses. He brought them into the Promised Land despite themselves - because He loved them and because of His love for their forefathers, not because they were any better than other people.
  10. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Hi, Jr. Thanx for your input.
    What does this mean? Can a person willfully sin, and yet remain saved? Because "where sin abounds, grace abounds more"? Consider: "Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? MAY IT NEVER BE! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience you are slaves of the one whom you obey---either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness. ...and having been FREED from sin, you became slaves to righteousness... For the waes of sin are death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord" Rm5:15-23

    This harmonizes PERFECTLY with Heb10:26 "For if we continue sinning willfully after having received knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire which consumes adversaries...
    It is very conditionally "HATH". Conditionally on "BELIEVE". In other words, "he who believeth on Me has passed from death unto life and shall not come into condemnation. But he who ceases to believe, ceases to have passed from death unto life..."
    "Making sense to us" is irrelevant. We must contend with what Scripture says. And very many Scriptures speak of "once-being-saved, then becoming unsaved".
    2Jn1:8-9 (they were NEVER saved? "WATCH YOURSELVES...")

    2Pet2:20 (THEY were never saved? Oh yes they were, just as much as in 2Pet1:4. The FALSE ones tempt the TRUE ones (2:2:18), the TRUE ones FALL FROM SALVATION (2:2:20-22)

    Jms5:19-20 (NOT REALLY ETERNAL DEATH? Yes it was. "Thanatos"... NOT REALLY SAVED? Yes they were. "BRETHREN, if any of YOU WANDER from the TRUTH...")

    2Pet1:9-11 (NEVER SAVED? Then how were they "PURIFIED from FORMER SINS"? NOT LOST? Yes they were---ONLY if you exhibit saved-fruits-as-these, only THEN will the "EISODOS-GATE-OF-HEAVEN" be "abundantly supplied")

    Col1:22-23 (This verse ALONE should remove all doubt that salvation is conditional upon our "abiding in Him!" Jude 23!)

    There are many others...
    Please read Heb3:12-19 ("They were not able to enter (Promised Land) because of their unbelief"), and then 4:1ff.

    Please pay close attention to verses 3:12, 13, 14 (IF!); and 4:1.

    ...and then tell me if the example of the "Israelites-entering-the-Promised-land" supports "OSAS"...

    (Ben awaits expectantly...)

  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    "Can a person willfully sin, and yet remain saved? "

    Yes, because sin has no power over him anymore :) all sin was seperated from us when Christ died.

    "and then see if the example of the "Israelites-entering-the-Promised-land" supports "OSAS"... "

    Okay, how about lets look at Israel is saved regardless because they are Israel..once saved, always saved, regardless ;) see the paralell?

    I can not loose my salvation anymore then I can loose my spirit.
  12. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    Can sinning cause us to lose it?

    The answer lies in this verse:

    Romans 5:19 -- For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

    Man is a sinner because of what Adam had done, not because he sins -- he sins because he has inherited Adam's sinful nature. Likewise, a Christian is righteous because of what Jesus Christ had done at the cross, not because he does good -- he does good because Christ is in him.

    When we were sinners, our good deeds could not undo what Adam had done and make us righteous. Similarly, now that we are righteous, our bad deeds or sins cannot undo what Christ had done and make us unrighteous!

    If we believe that the former is impossible but the latter, possible, then we are saying:

    ¥ Adam's work was superior to Christ's, when the opposite is true (Romans 5:15).
    ¥ Our sinning is more powerful than the perfect work and blood of Christ.
    ¥ The blood of bulls and goats in the Old Testament is more "potent" than the blood of Christ, since the former could atone for the sins of Israel for at least one year, but that the latter loses its effect the moment we sin.

    Nature itself teaches us that once a caterpillar has transformed into a butterfly ("born-again"), even if it lands on a rubbish heap ("falls into sin") rather than flowers, it cannot turn back into a caterpillar! Likewise, a man cannot be unborn, neither can his spirit that has been born of God.

    Consider also that because of what Jesus Christ had accomplished on the cross, God is not even counting men's sins against them, let alone Christians!

    ¥ 2 Corinthians 5:19 -- that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
    ¥ Hebrews 10:17 -- Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

    ps: but if u know a "Christian" who is sinning willyfully like there's no tomorrow for many years already, then maybe the question u shld be asking is, is he saved in the first place.
  13. The Squelch Master

    The Squelch Master New Member

    I am no longer allowed to post on the Christian only forums and this is the last time I will post on this site- I only want to warn others of the truth. For 6 years I tried everything possible to truly accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour. I did everything possible to ask him because that was all I was told I had to do.
    However I was rebellious and deliberately sinned in my life despite being consistantly warned in my heart of the deliberate sin in my life- however I believed I was truly saved and did not realise that I did have to give up all the deliberate sin in my life to be finally saved at the end. I thought it was just an option. Eventually I fell away. Satan then possessed me and for months I was battling against rejecting Christ and worshipping and selling my soul to Satan. I tried everything possible to make sure that I was truly saved, to recommit myself to Jesus, but he refused me- he just kept telling me that I had to give up every single deliberate sin in my life without exception and abstain from it for life first otherwise I would eternally perish. I tried this for up to a few days at a time, but still absolutely no assurance of salvation or hope for me, so I gave up trying- but Jesus kept on at me to give up this sin regardless or eternally perish- I literally had to give up all deliberate sin in my life or eternally perish, but I refused to believe it- I thought if I was ever saved, I was saved simply for asking and giving up sin first had nothing to do with it.
    Eventually God gave me up to Satan and Satan forcibly possessed me and caused me uncontrollably to sell my soul to him for the whole of eternity. I totally gave up all hope of eternal life at this point and prayed to Satan and called him 'Lord'. I believed that if in the extremely unlikely event that I was saved that I wouldn't lose it no matter what- my church believed in OSAS.
    Since I have done this Jesus has clearly told me in a vision that I was truly saved as far as being given the chance of eternal life but I failed to survive or endure to the end and disobeyed God's command to give up all deliberate sin first as a condition of final salvation. Jesus told me that I am eternally lost, that I am a son of perdition as condemned to eternal death as Judas Iscariot was and that there is absolutely no hope for me. Jesus told me that the moment I die I will face exactly the same infinite eternal destruction and wrath of God as was only intended for Satan and his angels. I asked Jesus why he let me go and he said that he had given me a final chance, but I had failed to give up all deliberate sin in my life- there was no excuse for not having done so- feelings or negative circumstances causing me to believe that I was eternally lost were no excuse for being disobedient, neither was the fact that I had been decieved by false doctrine. It was my responsibilty to have found out the truth and started believing it. I had had plenty of opportunity to do so, several years in fact and it was my fault and not God's that I failed to do do, despite often questioning my salvation and trying everything so I thought to make sure. I had never however truly repented and given up all deliberate sin in my life as God commands. There is no final salvation in this life- a person is saved from slavery to sin and given the power to overcome all sin through the power of the Holy Spirit in order so that they MIGHT have the CHANCE to inherit eternal life. Those who fail to overcome all deliberate sin, through the power of the Holy Spirit and fail to endure faithfully to the end regardless of the circumstances will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Jesus told me that the vast majority of people who call him Lord will NOT be saved at the end, only those who truly repent by giving up and successfully overcoming ALL deliberate sin in their lives without exception and endure faithfully to the end, despite all of Satan's attempts to eternally destroy them as God has given him full power to be able to do, will inherit eternal life. The rest will perish. The grace and forgiveness of God is reserved only for those who have overcome all deliberate sin and have endured to the end and completely defeated all of Satan's attempts to destroy them in their lives. Those who fall short will eternally perish, because they were given the chance to obey God and refused. Jesus said the door and way is narrow and few (far fewer than most of us will imagine) will ever find it. Salvation from being dead in sin is free, but inheriting eternal life is our responsibity, God has given us the power in order for us to be able to do so and it is our fault if we fail in the attempt.
    God's grace was simply to give us the chance of eternal life, we don't recieve it until after death and only if we obey God through true life-long repentance and endure to the end, overcoming Satan through the power of God's Holy Spirit. Those who fail to use the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives to succeed in this, will eventually commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and face eternal everlasting destruction.
  14. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    How do you justify this answer in light of verses I reffed---specifically, Rom6:15-18, and Heb10:26-27? Is there a hidden message in the Heb10:26-27 passage that I am missing???

    Did Jesus MEAN what He said, recorded in Matt7: "Therefore you will KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS. No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit". Did He mean it or not? Did Paul mean it when he said, "And they that PRACTICE such things, WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!" (1Cor6:9, Gal5:21) Seems pretty black-and-white to me; how am I missing the GREY???

    Hello, Andrew. In trying to say that "Adam's work was superior to Christ's", you might also say "Adam's will-to-fall was superiour to God's-will-for-his-obedience". Do you see the problem with this? God is sovereign. In His sovereignty, it is certainly within His scope to allow Adman---CHOICE. And within His scope to allow mankind, now, the same CHOICE...
    I have cited many, many Scriptures that very plainly speak of "FALLING-FROM-SALVATION" on other threads. Shall I repeat the posts here? The "caterpillar/butterfly" analogy is nice, but the question really is, "What does the WORD say?"
    Peter absolutely disagrees with you. "BUt those who LACK these qualities have FORGOTTEN THEIR PURIFICATION FROM FORMER SINS".

    Before anyone can positively say: "I can not loose my salvation anymore then I can loose my spirit", he or she must first explain all of the Scriptures that very plainly speak of "once BEING saved, and then BEING unsaved"...

    ;) @ Louis...
  15. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    "Hello, Andrew. In trying to say that "Adam's work was superior to Christ's""

    I didnt say that. pls read carefully first.
  16. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Squelchmaster, you have really moved my heart with your post. There is truth in what you said, that "we must endure to the end". And that "salvation is our state, eternal life the goal for when we die" (or are "Raptured").

    BUT---I know the nature of Christ, because I know HIM!!! ANd I can say with complete and absolute certainty that Jesus would NEVER say "you are beyond hope". It seems to me that you have been pursuing righteousness BY YOUR OWN EFFORTS. This will always result in failure. To win in the "war-between-good-and-evil", you must NOT FIGHT!

    Salvation is not what you do, not how you force-yourself-into-submission. Salvation, is JESUS-IN-YOU.

    YOU ARE NOT LOST! Not as long as there is breath within your body. Don't worry about deliberate sin---the real key BEHIND deliberate sin, is WHERE IS JESUS IN YOU?

    If you want to live forever, you CAN! There is no chain too strong, no sin so bad that you can be "too far gone". Your vision of Jesus telling you "there is no hope" is from the side of evil! All you need to do, is simply grow close to Him, and your "deliberate sins" will take care of themselves!

    Have you not read, "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you! Resist the devil and HE WILL FLEE FROM YOU!" Jms4:7-8

    Just spend time with Him, SM! TELL Him about the troubles you have! Structure your prayer like this:

    1. Praise and worship! He's the Creator, absolute perfection, perfect love! Praise is easy! It's His nature to crave this, and it's why we were created!

    2. Thanksgiving. "Every good and perfect gift is from above". Did you eat today? Are you clothed warmed and fed? THEN YOU ARE BLESSED! THANK HIM! Grattitude is the basis of humility and the foundation for contentment and happiness.

    3. Intercession. Prayer does move God, and it focuses us off of ourselves and towards others. We increase in our love for others.

    4. Pettition. How often prayer begins and ends only with this! He's not our "cosmic Santa", He's our DAD! Take your needs before Him, and He will meet your needs! And many of your desires, too! (The secret to Psalms 37:4 is that when we are "delighting in the Lord, our desires will be His desires!"

    In my spirit I perceive you are being influenced directly by demons. For real. So I'm gonna do something unusual---I'm gonna pray for you. And ask everyone to agree. "Father God, we come before you in praise and worship! We lift Your Name ABOVE ALL! Thank You, Jesus, for your incredible sacrifice! OH GOD, we rejoice in Your presence, Your glory, YOUR LOVE! How we rejoice in Your love!!!!! Father, bless this seeker. In Your word, you say 'where two or more are gathered, there am I'; and 'whatever you bind'... SO, in this "cyber-church", we agree together! WE BIND THE EVIL SPIRITS IN THIS MAN'S LIFE! OH JESUS, we rebuke the spirits in Your name! Touch this man's heart, bring him close to you! Set him on fire for you! AND TELL HIM HE CAN LIVE FOREVER!!!!!"

    This is real, Squelchmaster. Don't turn your back on it. Seek Him WITH ALL THAT YOU ARE! Don't worry about CHANGING, let Him change you from the INSIDE OUT! Just seek Him with all that you are!

    He is real. He thinks, He laughs, and yes He cries. Grab a Bible and just read the book of John. ANd spend time in prayer.

    You are not lost, not too far gone. Seek Him. "He who seeks Me WILL FIND ME, when he seeks WITH ALL HIS HEART!!!!!

    God bless you, Squelchmaster! FOREVER!!!!!
  17. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Andrew, I understood what you were saying. I was striving to convey that "it is no more of a breech to say that Christ's death-on-the-Cross was provided to those who will choose Him in free will, than it is to say that Adam chose to sin ALSO in free will.

    The position that "God's will CANNOT BE THWARTED" may certainly be true---but it appears that the Bible is clearly providing that God's will is that Jesus died on the Cross FOR ALL WHO WILL BELIEVE!


  18. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member


    Thanks for sharing but we cant go by your odd experiences and your visions, especially when you have been involved in Satanic worship.

    I was talking about saved ppl who already chose Jesus.

    Anyway, if u want to insist that your salvation can be lost, then that's your choice. The diff is that OSAS believers enjoy their salvation more and have assurance and peace of mind, and a closer walk with Him.

    ps: if you really want more scriptural proof from me, u can visit my website and read the app article.
  19. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    "I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity; so choose life!" Deut30

    "Sin hath is pleasure for a season, but bitter is the end thereof". When God is our reality, when Jesus is manifested to us in our hearts, when the Holy Spirit indwells us physically, then the temptations of the world become resistable. If we believe in a real place called Hell, as terrible as it is, nevertheless it is not enough motivation towards righteousness---but He IS. Pursue Him until He is your reality. And if we are faced with persecution and even execution, THERE WILL BE NO CHOICE FOR US! Eternity will be in our hearts! For we will be walking with Jesus, NOW just as much as we will be when we are PHYSICALLY IN HIS PRESENCE!!!

    This is the point of debates and discussions, to grow each other in love. That God will be real to us, that Jesus and the Holy SPirit will indwell our hearts. That we may set the world on fire for Him.

    No more complicated than that...

    :D :D :D
  20. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    My Father is more real to me than God. That's why I'm sure about OSAS :)
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