Can you lose your salvation??

[GreenEyedLady]

John-
One thing I wanted to find out from you is that why would there be a list in the NT about what sin is or isn't and why would it matter if all who are saved don't sin?
I disagree with you there.
SAVED people still have the flesy body that can tempt them.
WE will be SINNLESS in heaven when are bodies are changed.
We fight the evil every day...
GEL

 

[Anise]

I guess I compare the whole sin thing with adultery. If I were to decide to have an affair with someone, that to me would represent an internal or real or existential change in me RE my positive commitment to be exclusive to my husband. Unless I repent of the affair, I think I would stay in that changed state relative to my commitment.

Similarly, when I sin in certain ways, that to me represents a real change in me relative to my commitment to God (or faith, being a disciple of Jesus, etc). Here's the rub: that comittment of mine to God was a thing that I did not create on my own, so I by myself cannot fix it. I need grace and help to fix it.

I see something internal to me that is changed for the worse when I sin. I think it then needs fixing. If I just go on in that broken state, never, ever having it fixed, I won't go to heaven. There are no broken people in heaven.

 

[jrmorganjr]

I see something internal to me that is changed for the worse when I sin. I think it then needs fixing. If I just go on in that broken state, never, ever having it fixed, I won't go to heaven. There are no broken people in heaven.

I understand your ideas here, but I think the answer to that last bit is that we all die broken. We are changed in an instant at the trumpet call. That's when we get fixed, never to sin again.

It's hard for me to think as you do on this, though. I mean, if God needs to come "restore" me everytime I fall into sin, but then I think he hasn't, What does that mean? How do I know he did it? By the ACTIONS I take in response? Then I'm justifying and sanctifying myself through works. Yuck. I don't want to be in control of that program, I've already proved to myself that I don't usually do what's best for me, left to my own devices. I've messed up enough, I'm more than willing to let God run that show.

How could we be secure in our salvation, as scripture says we can, if we don't know that we won't sin and "break" right before death's door? That's too terrible a thought for me to entertain.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

* *

All these threads are usually about the same stuff, believe it or not, and I'm kinda discouraged cause it feels like it's me against the world, but if God wants us to...

No. We cannot. Since our initial salvation was not by any merit or work of ours, we can not lose it by any lack of merit or works of ours. Proof?

Romans at the end of chapter 8, also try 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Key words: "He is still saved, but it's as if he just survived a [house] fire" (look at previous verses).

 

[VOW]

To Jr:

The Sacrament of Reconciliation is not "salvation through works." It is allowing yourself the graces instituted by Jesus, through the Apostolic Succession, to help put our feet back on the path to righteousness.

Sure, YOU can do this on your own, but I compare it to building a house. I might be able to accomplish it by myself, but it would take an incredible amount of time, I'd make a LOT of mistakes, and I'd probably waste a lot of money. To me, it would make more sense to hire a contractor.

The priest, LOL, is the contractor here. You don't confess to the priest, you aren't "forgiven" by the priest. He is serving as God's ears, and it is GOD who forgives your sins. As the saying goes, "don't knock it until you've tried it." First, you are really putting your ego on the line to actually admit, out loud, that you have done wrong. It's almost embarassing, but ONLY to you, because the priest has heard just about everything in the world before. It's very humbling to admit your failings to another person, even MORESO to admit them to God. Then, the priest usually asks you about the sins you've committed. What were the circumstances, how did it happen? You gain insight to your behavior with this conversation. "Gee, if I hadn't been the one to volunteer to keep the cashbox, then I wouldn't have been tempted to help myself to the money." The priest is there to HELP you gain that insight. Then he will often offer suggestions on how to avoid the temptation of sins. You most likely will be given a penance, too, but that is NOT something you do to "earn" forgiveness. It's to make you focus on God, to re-establish your relationship with Him. When you screw up, it's a very natural reaction to want to turn away, out of shame and fear. The penance makes you face Him again.

Then the priest absolves you of your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

And you almost FLY out of the Confessional!

Incredible!!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[jrmorganjr]

Hi Vow,

I was making a different point, I think. You wouldn't walk out of a confessional wondering whether you were forgiven, would you? I'm not Catholic, so I tend to confess my sin directly to God the moment I become aware of it. I repent, try to learn from it, what good can be brought out of it, I give thanks to God, and I move on, oftentimes with the same elation you mentioned from your more formal confession - which I don't have a problem with, really. I like my method better, and I know we're supposed to confess our sins one to another.

We probably differ in that I think that my confession & repentance is not to make me right with God so much as for my own good. I acknowledge that His ways are better and that I agree with God that I messed up. But I was already forgiven before I started, positionally! Before I was even aware of the sin!

 

[VOW]

To Jr:

If you believe in OSAS, then the concept of Confession is particulary foreign to you. The Catholic Church doesn't teach OSAS, and that in no way takes away anything from the total, complete sacrifice that Christ did on the Cross. Instead, it addresses the fact that we come to faith through Free Will, and that very same Free Will (that stubborn, impulsive, very argumentative Free Will!) can cause a person to turn away from God. The Sacrament of Reconciliation can help mend the rift that we created between us and God.

Confessing out loud to another person also helps eliminate the very human nature of telling yourself that things aren't really as bad as they seem. I myself can recall a grilling or two by my mother when I was a kid that convinced me she could see right into my brain, LOL. The priest in Confession has the same "parental talent," and can cut through the deepest BS with a simple question or two.

And, as I said, it's a wonderful, wonderful feeling.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[LouisBooth]

"If you believe in OSAS, then the concept of Confession is particulary foreign to you. "

How so? I would disagree very much with that statement. I can confess to God my sins just as faithfully and as how it is written as someone that believes in you're not always saved.

"And, as I said, it's a wonderful, wonderful feeling. "

I would say that its just as great as knowing I am secure in my salvation and I can never loose what God has given me regardless of what I do.

 

[VOW]

To Jr:

I'm sorry, I didn't clarify. I meant the Sacrament of Confession, in its ability to remove the stain of mortal sin from our souls, and reconcile us to God. It's my understanding if you believe in OSAS, you don't accept the concept of mortal sin after "being saved."


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[LouisBooth]

"It's my understanding if you believe in OSAS, you don't accept the concept of mortal sin after "being saved." "

exactly, no sin can seperate you from the love of God.

 

[jrmorganjr]

Thanks for your helpful explanations, VOW. I'm with Louis on theology for this one. But I'm really glad that confession to a priest works for you.

Spinning off that, do you believe that you, as a Christian, are currently part of a holy priesthood? Do you call yourself a saint, but then make a distinction with an "ordained" (or whatever the right word is) saint?

(Picking the Catholic mind...)

 

[Andrew]

Can I loose my salvation?

Only if I can be "unborn" spiritually.

saved by grace (Romans) walk by grace (Galatians).

 

[VOW]

To Jr:

I call myself a sinner, an unworthy soul, and I appeal to the mercy of the Almighty God.

I tremble in awe before my Savior, and weep at His sacrifice for my sins.

I surrender to the Holy Spirit, to give Him my life to use for the glory of God.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"It's my understanding if you believe in OSAS, you don't accept the concept of mortal sin after "being saved." "

exactly, no sin can seperate you from the love of God.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God, but we can separate ourselves from Him.

I don't believe that salvation is a one time act and then you're 'in like Flynn'.

Saving faith is an on-going attitude, a continual act of compliance to the Scriptures, a daily surrendering of one's will to God's.

Michelle

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Sometimes when I hear the phrase "once saved always saved" I don't understand what the purpose of repentence is for people that believe in it. I mean if once saved always saved why not just do whatever the heck you want..Hey you are going to heaven anyway.

Can anyone that believes in Once Saved Always Saved tell me some more about how you view repentence ?

 

[jrmorganjr]

Hi Missy,

While I haven't commited my beliefs 100% to OSAS, my post #29, I think, addresses your issue.

Do you repent because you did something bad, or because you want forgiveness? My goal is much more to be Holy and to love God than to get to heaven. My relationship to God is distant when I enter sin. I may be saved, but God won't fellowship with me as closely. Once I repent and agree that He's right and I'm wrong (again!), he can cleanse me so that the closeness can be renewed.

After all, as Paul said, my paraphrase, "Should we increase in sin, that Grace may abound? Heaven forbid!" In other words, being saved does not give a license to sin. Being saved means you've entered into a new relationship with God where your desire for sin should be dying, to die forever at death, but warring with it until then.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Great points Jrmorganjr, thanks!

 

[Ben johnson]

exactly, no sin can separate you from the love of God.

But---did He love us before we were saved? Does He love unsaved people the same way???

"For while we were still helpless, Christ died for the ungoldly. God demonstrates His love for us, in that while we were YET sinners, Christ died for us" Rom5:6,8

@ Louis

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Romans 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

It is the Spirit in us that "marks" us Gods children. Without that, all others are NOT god's children!

Romans 9:8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1 John 3:10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Nothing can separate us from the love of God, but we can separate ourselves from Him. "

No, where sin abounds grace abounds more. We cannot be seperated from the love of God. We are saved always.

"Do you repent because you did something bad, or because you want forgiveness? "

Great points. God wants you to acknowledge wrong doing. He wants us to change. Why did he ask, "Adam where are you?" Do you really think he didn't know?