CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION BY NOT BEING FAITHFUL TO THE END?

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello David nice to see you again brother. Some comments for your consideration below.

Hello again LoveGodsWord, I believe I made the argument in an earlier post in this tread (the "argument" is actually made by God in the Bible, of course). In short, 1. regeneration (necessarily) precedes faith.

How can you have regeneration BEFORE FAITH in God's WORD? When faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of GOD? According to the scriptures all of this comes by the WORD of GOD *ROMANS 10:17.

In the last post when I said you were making an argument no one is making was in reference to where I posted a response to 1 THESSALONIANS 5:23-24 and said..

1 THESSALONIANS 5:23-24 [23], And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [24], Faithful is he that calls you, who also will do it.

Indeed God's promises of salvation is his work in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD and are conditional on us continuing to BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD as it is written in JOHN 8:31-36 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free? [34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin. [35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. Once again, is one who starts off believing and following God's WORD then turns away from God's WORD and is not longer believing and following God's WORD still BELIEVING God's WORD?

Your response to this section of my post was in disagreement stating...

St_Worm2 said: ↑ No, our continuing to believe and follow Him throughout this life is "conditioned"/made possible because He:
1. changed us at the outset, enabled us to come to saving faith in Jesus, and then justified us, and 2. continues to work powerfully in us to preserve us in the faith, to continually grow us up in Christlikeness (sanctification), and to see to it that we make it safely through this life in Christ so that we can be with Him forever in Glory .. Philippians 1:6; 2:13; Hebrews 7:25.
Outside of the mighty work He did, and now continues to do in us, moment by moment, none could be saved.

to which I responded by saying...

David your post here is an argument that no one is making and is not made in the post you are quoting from. If you do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD then please tell me how can you have a CHANGED HEART and be FORGIVEN when it is FAITH (BELIEVING God's WORD) that allows Gods to fulfill his promises in us? We are to GROW in GRACE as we have received Christ JESUS the LORD we are to walk in Him through the power of His Spirit *COLOSSIANS 2:6; GALATIANS 5:16; 2 CORINTHIANS 5:7 by CONTINUING in His WORD *JOHN 8:31-36. It is CHRISTS WORK in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD that saves us. As stated in the post you are responding to none have salvation without BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD and it is only he that ENDURES TO THE END BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD who wil be saved *PHILIPPIANS 2:13; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; HEBREWS 3:13-14; HEBREWS 3:6; COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; JOHN 8:31-36.

You did not answer my question here brother.

And 2. coming to faith in Christ & being saved (necessarily) precedes the things that "accompany" or "result from" our salvation .. like obedience, good works, holy living, etc.
We are 'not' saved because we do those things ~RATHER~ we do those kinds of things because we are (already) saved

On the other hand, all of those things (obedience, good works, holy living) do play a role in our being saved, no because 'we' do them, but because He did did them for us. IOW, we are saved by Jesus' obedience, by His good works, and by His choice to lead a righteous/holy life before His Father .. ON OUR BEHALF

None would be able to come to Christ apart from the mighty work that God does in us first to change us, IOW, apart from the monergistic work that He does in us to quicken/regenerate us & cause us to be born again/to be made alive in Christ (such that we are brought from spiritual death to spiritual life) .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:1-5.

He gives us the gift of saving faith (w/o which we would be unable to believe), and He justifies us (declares us just) & saves us, solely on the basis of the obedience and works (the merits) of Another, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

So, we are not saved, nor do we remain saved, because of anything that 'we' do, ever (save believing itself). Rather, we are saved by God's mercy and grace alone, through faith (which again, is a "gift" given by Him to those of us who are His), apart from anything that 'we' choose to do .. e.g. Romans 3:28, 4:5; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.

If what we do counts towards our salvation, then we are not saved by grace.

Romans 11
6 If it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.​

There is much more but I'd like to stop here and ask you a couple of questions (if that's ok with you?).

The "news" is (and always has been), God is holy and righteous, and if we want to be able to stand in his presence in the age to come, then we need to be just like Him!

There's a problem with that however, and it's known as the "bad news". So my first question is, "what is the bad news"

My 2nd question is, how has our problem, the "bad news", been resolved? IOW, what is the "Good News" (and what makes it "good" news)?

Thanks!

--David

Romans 5 8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.​

.

No one is saying that we do these works brother this was already stated clearly in an earlier post. It is God who works in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW His WORD. Without JESUS we can do nothing because we are all sinners in need of a Savior *PHILIPPIANS 2:13; MARK 9:23; JOHN 15:1-8; EPHESIANS 2:13. We follow God not to be saved because salvation is a free GIFT. All those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD do so because they LOVE God and have received His Spirit and the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; GALATIANS 5:16

God bless

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Hello brother SeventhFisherofMen, nice to meet you here and welcome .
I really like your post about the parables. I think that all of these examples in the parable of the sower address the OP here really well. What are your thoughts on the other questions listed in the OP? Thanks for sharing the scriptures on the parable of the sower. Great post.

God bless

Hey LoveGodsWord thanks for the friendly response

Anyways I will address the remaining questions as follows:

2. What does it mean only those that are faithful to the end will be saved?
I think it means like when Paul compared faith to a race, that if people give up towards the end, like fall away and chose to be worldly and no longer include Jesus in their life then that would be turning away from the faith, ie not being faithful to the end.
On a side note I like to, when I'm doing something like work, to when I'm getting towards the end of some task picture myself nearing the finish line and treating it as practice for finishing the race, even if it's a metaphorical one it helps me to encourage myself to finish what I've started and it re-programs me to be a completer of tasks. A finisher, an over-comer if you will.

3. Saved from what?
I think it's saved from Hell or eternal damnation, the lake of fire as some have so said in previous posts.

4. Is anyone saved while living in a life of known unrepentant sin?
I think this is a touchy subject because the only one who can judge us is God (that's not to say if you notice a fellow believer in obvious sin not to bring it up, but rather when it comes to some issues to know that sometimes there can be grey areas or there are things specific to a certain situation). If it is something like obvious unrepentant sin then they are in danger of missing Heaven. Though it is important to remember that Jesus is Merciful and may very well have mercy on them if their time arrives to pass away, but situations like that are on a case by case basis and we'll have to wait until we get to Heaven to learn about such cases. Until then I'd say the verse of Romans 10:6-7 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). applies to this situation.

I've always held onto the above verse for a long time to remind myself to not assume I know where someone is going and to always pray for mercy for myself and for others, for like the King of Nineveh said when Jonah told them to repent:
Jonah 3:9-10 "Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened."
It shows that God may have mercy on whom He will have mercy according to Romans 9:15 "For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.""

I kind of went off on a tangent but I hope you can see where I stand. Anyways God Bless and thanks for this discussion. It helped me to actually put together and string together those verses and connect the dots so to speak for my own faith.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello David nice to see you again brother. Some comments for your consideration below.

How can you have regeneration BEFORE FAITH in God's WORD? When faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of GOD? According to the scriptures all of this comes by the WORD of GOD *ROMANS 10:17.

In the last post when I said you were making an argument no one is making was in reference to where I posted a response to 1 THESSALONIANS 5:23-24 and said..

1 THESSALONIANS 5:23-24 [23], And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [24], Faithful is he that calls you, who also will do it.

Indeed God's promises of salvation is his work in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD and are conditional on us continuing to BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD as it is written in JOHN 8:31-36 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free? [34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin. [35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. Once again, is one who starts off believing and following God's WORD then turns away from God's WORD and is not longer believing and following God's WORD still BELIEVING God's WORD?

Your response to this section of my post was in disagreement stating...

to which I responded by saying...

David your post here is an argument that no one is making and is not made in the post you are quoting from. If you do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD then please tell me how can you have a CHANGED HEART and be FORGIVEN when it is FAITH (BELIEVING God's WORD) that allows Gods to fulfill his promises in us? We are to GROW in GRACE as we have received Christ JESUS the LORD we are to walk in Him through the power of His Spirit *COLOSSIANS 2:6; GALATIANS 5:16; 2 CORINTHIANS 5:7 by CONTINUING in His WORD *JOHN 8:31-36. It is CHRISTS WORK in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD that saves us. As stated in the post you are responding to none have salvation without BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD and it is only he that ENDURES TO THE END BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD who wil be saved *PHILIPPIANS 2:13; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; HEBREWS 3:13-14; HEBREWS 3:6; COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; JOHN 8:31-36.

You did not answer my question here brother.

No one is saying that we do these works brother this was already stated clearly in an earlier post. It is God who works in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW His WORD. Without JESUS we can do nothing because we are all sinners in need of a Savior *PHILIPPIANS 2:13; MARK 9:23; JOHN 15:1-8; EPHESIANS 2:13. We follow God not to be saved because salvation is a free GIFT. All those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD because they LOVE God and have received the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12

God bless

Hi LoveGodsWord, it seems to me that we've been talking past one another, so let's try to find some simple, common ground, if possible, and move on from there (because right now, we are not communicating effectively with each other .. as I'm certain you'd agree).

That said, let's start with the basics (and let's try to keep our answers as concise as possible for both our sakes ). So, hoping that this is all ok with you, let's start here.

The Bible tells us plainly that we are "saved by grace" .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8. What does that mean, or more precisely, what is the meaning of "grace" (in this case), and what does it mean to you to be "saved by grace"?

Thanks

--David
p.s. - It will most likely be this afternoon or even this evening before I am able to reply again, just FYI.

 

[Paidiske]

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MOD HAT OFF​

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi LoveGodsWord, it seems to me that we've been talking past one another, so let's try to find some simple, common ground, if possible, and move on from there (because right now, we are not communicating effectively with each other .. as I'm certain you'd agree). That said, let's start with the basics (and let's try to keep our answers as concise as possible for both our sakes ). So, hoping that this is all ok with you, let's start here. The Bible tells us plainly that we are "saved by grace" .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8. What does that mean, or more precisely, what is the meaning of "grace" (in this case), and what does it mean to you to be "saved by grace"?

Thanks

--David
p.s. - It will most likely be this afternoon or even this evening before I am able to reply again, just FYI.

Hi David, nice to hear from you again brother and thanks for your post and also for sharing your thoughts here. I am not sure if I agree we have been talking past each other. I believe I have understood what you have posted and have responded with God's WORD appropriately. I would rather stay with the OP if possible to focus in the question;

CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION BY NOT BEING FAITHFUL TO THE END and the other questions in the OP here.

That being said I do not mind about talking about other things as long as we head back to the OP here. Let me know when your back and we can discuss this further if you like just let me know.

God bless.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Wish i have time to go over each verse.

But i will state this, look back in the Old Testament Saul when he died he did not persevere to the end. he actually consulted a medium and became an enemy of God.
Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?

But Samuel tells Saul that He will when he dies: And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

Can only women who have children be saved
Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

The word saved and salvation in the Bible does not always mean eternal life salvation. Many times saved and salvation are connected to a physical salvation from harm, attacks from enemies of (God or Christians). Basically it is a wide variety of situations that each need to studied in light of the context.

Using a necromancer or those that have a familiar Spirit was an abomination in God's eyes

DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12
[10], There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
[11], Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
[12], For all that do these things are an abomination to the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD your God does drive them out from before you.

The MOSAIC law commanded God's people not to contect those with familiar spirits of necromancers and these people were to be put to death...

LEVITICUS 19:31: Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them; I am the Lord your God.

LEVITICUS 20:27: A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them.

Now if SAUL because of his SINS and not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING GOD made God depart from him

1 SAMUEL 28:6-19
[6], And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
[7], Then said Saul to his servants, Seek me a woman that has a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that has a familiar spirit at Endor.
[8], And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray you, divine to me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name to you.
[9], And the woman said to him, Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: why then lay you a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
[10], And Saul swore to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD lives, there shall no punishment happen to you for this thing.
[11], Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up to you? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
[12], And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? for you are Saul.
[13], And the king said to her, Be not afraid: for what saw you? And the woman said to Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
[14], And he said to her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man comes up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
[15], And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answers me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I shall do.
[16], Then said Samuel, Why then do you ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from you, and is become your enemy?
[17], And the LORD has done to him, as he spoke by me: for the LORD has rent the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, even to David:
[18], Because you obeyed not the voice of the LORD, nor executed his fierce wrath on Amalek, therefore has the LORD done this thing to you this day.
[19], Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shall you and your sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

We can read the result of actions here..

PROVERBS 28:9 [9], He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

and again here..

ISAIAH 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Now brother as we consider the scriptures above. SIN separates us from GOD. Sauls SINS separated him from God so that God would no longer hear him. What makes you think that when God's WORD forbids consulting with a familiar Spirit and Necromacers and that doing so is an abomination in God's eyes that it was God and SAMUEL consulting with SAUL?

Also, even considering v19 isn't this only saying that SAUL and his sons would be dead?

Thanks for sharing brother.

God bless.

 

[psalm911]

According to God's WORD, it is only those that are faithful to the end that will be saved. What does this mean?

MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23
[12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.....
[23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

REVELATION 2:26 [26], And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations

2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3 [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

1 PETER 4:18 [18], And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

According to God's WORD salvation is for those who "continue in the faith" (Colossians 1:23). Those who do not "give place to the devil" (Ephesians 4:27), will not grieve the Spirit by believing the lie that they may not cease to endure to the end. "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (4:30). Not only is it necessary for the Saints to endure or persevere to the end; but at the same time, both the Father and the Son have promised to preserve those who "continue in the faith". "28 And I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. 29 My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand" (John 10:28-29). This relationship where the Saints Endure While God Preserves was best expressed by the LORD Jesus: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (John 5:17).

Questions for discussion;

1. Can we lose our salvation?

2. What does it mean only those that are faithful to the end will be saved?

3. Saved from what?

4. Is anyone saved while living in a life of known unrepentant sin?

Only friendly discussion please and please provide scriptures for your claims.

God bless.

Those who are baptized into Christ and then not keep his commandments are those that fall away.
Furthermore, those who keep the commandments of Christ receive the holy Ghost: and by the holy Ghost the believer knows he is saved and the holy Ghost will never leave him.

 

[d taylor]

Using a necromancer or those that have a familiar Spirit was an abomination in God's eyes

DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12
[10], There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
[11], Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
[12], For all that do these things are an abomination to the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD your God does drive them out from before you.

Now if SAUL because of his SINS and not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING GOD made God depart from him

1 SAMUEL 28:6-19
[6], And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
[7], Then said Saul to his servants, Seek me a woman that has a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that has a familiar spirit at Endor.
[8], And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray you, divine to me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name to you.
[9], And the woman said to him, Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: why then lay you a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
[10], And Saul swore to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD lives, there shall no punishment happen to you for this thing.
[11], Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up to you? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
[12], And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? for you are Saul.
[13], And the king said to her, Be not afraid: for what saw you? And the woman said to Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
[14], And he said to her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man comes up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
[15], And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answers me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I shall do.
[16], Then said Samuel, Why then do you ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from you, and is become your enemy?
[17], And the LORD has done to him, as he spoke by me: for the LORD has rent the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, even to David:
[18], Because you obeyed not the voice of the LORD, nor executed his fierce wrath on Amalek, therefore has the LORD done this thing to you this day.
[19], Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shall you and your sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

We can read the result of actions here..

PROVERBS 28:9 [9], He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

and again here..

ISAIAH 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Now brother as we consider the scriptures above. SIN separates us from GOD. Sauls SINS separated him from God so that God would no longer hear him. What makes you think that when God's WORD forbids consulting with a familiar Spirit and Necromacers and that doing so is an abomination in God's eyes that it was God and SAMUEL consulting with SAUL?

Also, even considering v19 isn't this only saying that SAUL and his sons would be dead?

Thanks for sharing brother.

God bless.

Are you trying to say the Bible is trying to deceive you and when the Bible says Samuel confronted Saul.

Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?

That it was not really Samuel. The lengths people go to hold up their beliefs.

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Are you trying to say the Bible is trying to deceive you and when the Bible says Samuel confronted Saul.

Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?

That it was not really Samuel. The lengths people go to hold up their beliefs.

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Thanks for your thoughts brother but you did not really address any of the content and the scriptures in the post you were quoting from that disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures but simply posted your own words that disagrees with God's WORD in the post provided. Please do not disagree for the sake of a disagreement when scriptures are posted and questions are asked of the statements and claims made in your post. Thanks for sharing though.

 

[Neogaia777]

Those who are baptized into Christ and then not keep his commandments are those that fall away.

And who are those...?

Furthermore, those who keep the commandments of Christ receive the holy Ghost: and by the holy Ghost the believer knows he is saved and the holy Ghost will never leave him.

Well said...

God Bless!

 

[d taylor]

Thanks for your thoughts brother but you did not really address any of the content and the scriptures in the post you were quoting from that disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures but simply posted your own words that disagrees with God's WORD in the post provided. Please do not disagree for the same of a disagreement when scriptures is posted and questions are asked of the statements and claims made in your post. Thanks for sharing though.

Scripture can be debated back and fourth and that can go on and on and on, instead of going that route.

I posted an example of a person (Saul) who did not endure to the end and from the Bibles words, went to be were Samuel was, in paradise.

If that was not acceptable for you and you want to just go back and forth on verses instead. Then that is your post and i will move on.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Scripture can be debated back and fourth and that can go on and on and on, instead of going that route.

I posted an example of a person (Saul) who did not endure to the end and from the Bibles words, went to be were Samuel was, in paradise.

If that was not acceptable for you and you want to just go back and forth on verses instead. Then that is your post and i will move on.

Brother that is why scripture was provided in post # 46 linked showing that it was not Sammuel that appeared to Saul as this practice was a demonic abominiation to God which was forbidden in the Mosaic law. Also, v19 was in reference to Saul and his sons being in death with Sammual the next day. It says no where in those scriptures that Saul was saved in Heaven with God when the scriptures say God departed from him because of his sins. There is a lot of contradictions to what you are saying here don't you think? Take a look at the scriptures provided again in the linked post.

God bless

 

[Neogaia777]

By works of the law shall no flesh be saved...

You interpret the law wrongly, so it is, or becomes, the work, or works of, a man, or men... You, mainly, and because of wherever you feel it forces you to draw the line(s) or lines, it or that is also a work of the law, and you are (wrongly) determining what justice and judgments is or are from a "man" or mere man's perspective, it is therefore a work of man, your works of the law...

Evil I tell you, This is how witch-hunts and Spanish Inquisition's, and all kinds of torture and murder of so called "heretics", so called, when Jesus cried out about Jerusalem and the Jews and Jewish people, that they were all "killers and murders of the true prophets sent to her" to help her, and to save her, so why wouldn't we think of history repeating itself, after that and up to now, by this strict, and these strict letter adherence to the law, and the letter of the law, that they misinterpret anyway, and get wrong and then becomes a work of man (interpretation of man) (a work of the law)...

God Bless!

 

[Neostarwcc]

All of the verses that I wanted to bring up into this thread have been brought up already so I don't really have anything else to add. But one thing I can add that I didn't see is that those who have the Holy Spirit living inside of them WILL endure to the end because that's one of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is keeping a person in the faith. Those who fall away never had the Holy Spirit to begin with (1 John 2:19) . Plus, scripture says in multiple places that once a person is indwelt with the Holy Spirit that not only is that person sealed to the resurrection (Ephesians 1:14) but also, the Holy Spirit will never leave or forsake a born again believer (John 14:7). A born again believer has the Holy Spirit for forever (John 14:16).

In order for a person to lose their salvation scripture would have to go against itself. The sealing of the Holy Spirit would have to become undone somehow and the Holy Spirit would have to leave a person and the new birth would have to become undone. This just simply isn't possible and it completely goes against many verses of scripture including verses that have been brought up already like John 6:37-40, and John 10:27-28 and Hebrews . If the Holy Spirit can leave a person than why did God promise that the Holy Spirit would be with a person for forever? Why did he promise not to lose ONE person the Father gives to him? No, a person who's been born again cannot lose their salvation. If they could than God lied when he promised not to lose any believers in multiple parts of scripture. God lied when he said that the Holy Spirit would live inside of a believer for forever and in many other parts of the gospel accounts. John 3:16 explains salvation pretty well:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

 

[bling]

According to God's WORD, it is only those that are faithful to the end that will be saved. What does this mean?

MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23
[12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.....
[23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

REVELATION 2:26 [26], And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations

2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3 [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

1 PETER 4:18 [18], And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

According to God's WORD salvation is for those who "continue in the faith" (Colossians 1:23). Those who do not "give place to the devil" (Ephesians 4:27), will not grieve the Spirit by believing the lie that they may not cease to endure to the end. "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (4:30). Not only is it necessary for the Saints to endure or persevere to the end; but at the same time, both the Father and the Son have promised to preserve those who "continue in the faith". "28 And I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. 29 My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand" (John 10:28-29). This relationship where the Saints Endure While God Preserves was best expressed by the LORD Jesus: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (John 5:17).

Questions for discussion;

1. Can we lose our salvation?

2. What does it mean only those that are faithful to the end will be saved?

3. Saved from what?

4. Is anyone saved while living in a life of known unrepentant sin?

Only friendly discussion please and please provide scriptures for your claims.

God bless.

You do an excellent job of listing out scripture in support of the truth you must remain faithful to the end, but a person can get around these scriptures by arguing:

1. People who are not faithful at the end of their life never were converted.

2. You are selling a work bases salvation.

3. There are different “salvations” and say things like “Ananias and Sapphira” were punished with death, but go on to heaven salvation. (They do not explain how death suddenly became a punishment for Christians who get to go home?)

4. Christ will not loss any.

I use other scripture to address these arguments.

1. Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

2. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).



Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.



The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.


The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.



We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.



Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us everything up front with the exception of dwelling in heaven right now, but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have give it away (satan wants it).

Also almost forgot: God and Christ are not at fault for anyone going to hell, they did their job perfectly, but Christians can quench the Spirit and go their own way leaving the grasp of Christ. Christ is not going to kidnap children for Himself or hold them against their will. We still have free will and did not become robots at conversion.

 

[psalm911]

And who are those...?

Those who do not keep the Commandments of Christ are the children of the devil, which is to say, the children of man.

 

[rockytopva]

Salvation is something to continue in and no Calvinistic game...

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. - John 4:23-24

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; - John 8:31

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. - Romans 11

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; - Colossians 1:23

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Now if SAUL because of his SINS and not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING GOD made God depart from him

1 SAMUEL 28:6-19
[6], And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
[7], Then said Saul to his servants, Seek me a woman that has a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that has a familiar spirit at Endor.
[8], And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray you, divine to me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name to you.
[9], And the woman said to him, Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: why then lay you a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
[10], And Saul swore to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD lives, there shall no punishment happen to you for this thing.
[11], Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up to you? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
[12], And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? for you are Saul.
[13], And the king said to her, Be not afraid: for what saw you? And the woman said to Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
[14], And he said to her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man comes up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
[15], And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answers me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I shall do.
[16], Then said Samuel, Why then do you ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from you, and is become your enemy?
[17], And the LORD has done to him, as he spoke by me: for the LORD has rent the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, even to David:
[18], Because you obeyed not the voice of the LORD, nor executed his fierce wrath on Amalek, therefore has the LORD done this thing to you this day.
[19], Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shall you and your sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

We can read the result of actions here..

PROVERBS 28:9 [9], He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

and again here..

ISAIAH 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Now brother as we consider the scriptures above. SIN separates us from GOD. Sauls SINS separated him from God so that God would no longer hear him. What makes you think that when God's WORD forbids consulting with a familiar Spirit and Necromacers and that doing so is an abomination in God's eyes that it was God and SAMUEL consulting with SAUL?

Also, even considering v19 isn't this only saying that SAUL and his sons would be dead?

Thanks for sharing brother.

God bless.

You do not believe that the Lord could have been the one who raised Samuel to speak with Saul? That it was not by the power of the witch of Endor that he was raised but that it was instead by the Power of the Lord?

Did Samuel in chapter 28 speak that which was contrary to God? If not then does Satan(and the other fallen angels) speak God's truth to people when they are summoned(as Samuel did to Saul in 1 Samuel 28)?

Why was the witch of Endor terrified when she Saw Samuel? Why was she so afraid of what rose up from the earth if she had done this so often before? Why was she more terrified by the form of Samuel that was risen, than by Saul who in her mind only sought to kill those like her?
Remember it was not until she saw Samuel that she was afraid.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.


Not to detract from the current OP brother I just want to get a better understanding of how you view this chapter, and what your answers are to each of these questions. If you would like we can discuss this over message if you feel it would distract others from the OP. I'll leave it up to you brother, I look forward to your response.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Those who are fixated on the uncertainty of believers enduring to the end, are themselves insecure in their faith and fearful of backsliding.

Or most likely, they love their neighbor enough to try to do the nearly impossible task of keeping them out of hell because some believe they can live in any sin they please and their faith alone will save them.

 

[Kenny'sID]

So, if a person is trying to repent of the sins in his old man, he is trying to reform someone who is a corpse. Would you get a dead body out of its grave, give it a facelift, put a new suit on it, put makeup on it and take it out to dinner? If you tried, you could be just a pelican operating out of the spirit of stupidity!

Then you are saying we don't need to repent of our sins?