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Featured CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION BY NOT BEING FAITHFUL TO THE END?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    According to God's WORD, it is only those that are faithful to the end that will be saved. What does this mean?

    MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

    MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

    HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

    HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

    COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23
    [12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    [13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    [14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.....
    [23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

    ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

    REVELATION 2:26 [26], And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations

    2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3 [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

    1 PETER 4:18 [18], And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
    [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    MATTHEW 13:18-23 [18], Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.
    [19], When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. [20], But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; [21], Yet has he not root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution rises because of the word, by and by he is offended. [22], He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.[23], But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundred times, some sixty, some thirty.

    REVELATION 2:26 And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    REVELATION 3:5
    He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    REVELATION 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write on him my new name.

    REVELATION 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    REVELATION 21:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    According to God's WORD salvation is for those who "continue in the faith" (Colossians 1:23). Those who do not "give place to the devil" (Ephesians 4:27), will not grieve the Spirit by believing the lie that they may not cease to endure to the end. "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (4:30). Not only is it necessary for the Saints to endure or persevere to the end; but at the same time, both the Father and the Son have promised to preserve those who "continue in the faith". "28 And I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. 29 My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand" (John 10:28-29). This relationship where the Saints Endure While God Preserves was best expressed by the LORD Jesus: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (John 5:17).

    Questions for discussion
    ;

    1. Can we lose our salvation? (linked to answer)

    2. What does it mean only those that are faithful to the end will be saved?

    3. Saved from what?

    4. Is anyone saved while living in a life of known unrepentant sin?

    Only friendly discussion please and please provide scriptures for your claims.

    God bless.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  2. 1am3laine

    1am3laine Active Member

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  3. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Hey...cant hit every question forgive me. I don't worry think about losing or once saved always saved. We live in a world were everything is temporary. Everything my Father gives He never takes back..

    Tell the end.. the question one should be asking is "who is "he""? Who was asking Christ? No Christian was asking.. no Church was asking. He was not talking to one Christian. He had not died yet. Hmm

    So.. blaspheme.. a sin not forgiven.. where is it written your lost then? The DOOR to the Father is Christ...praise GOD no man has any say in who is lost or saved. Gonna be ALLOT of people we don't like knew would not be saved.. will be there. There HIS creation. If we don't like it so what.. get over it..

    Try living in the moment.. the NOW! Today..
     
  4. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    1. No, otherwise it becomes works based. Salvation, from beginning to end, is from God. He is Author and Finisher of our faith. "I shall lose nothing of all that [the Father] has given me, but raise it up on the last day" (John. 6:39). "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified" (Rom. 8:30). "So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish" (Matt. 18:14).

    2. If we continue in the faith, we show ourselves to be in the faith. If we don't continue in the faith, we were deceived to believe we were. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John. 2:19). "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves" (2 Cor. 13:5). "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him of known him" (1 John. 3:6). "Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall" (2 Pet. 1:10).

    3. Salvation is more than one aspect, but what I am referring to chiefly is our positional standing before God, but not limited to that aspect only. We must work out our progressive salvation from the presence of sin after justification, called sanctification.

    4. No, but a believer may be temporally ensnared in some particular sin for a period, but they are always brought back (have to leave right now, unable to provide Scriptural references).
     
  5. SeventhFisherofMen

    SeventhFisherofMen Invisible Hero Supporter

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    Here’s a verse I happened upon that might support my belief that yes you can lose your salvation. Before I mention it I tend to compare the once saved always saved doctrine to once shaved always shaved in the sense that to be forgiven we must ask for forgiveness, and to assume that when we receive Christ that we don’t ever sin afterwards, or somehow are exempt from asking for forgiveness is wrong.

    Now the verse to show that you can turn away from the faith is as follows:
    Matthew 13:20-21
    As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
     
  6. CodyFaith

    CodyFaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus said whoever believes in him has passed from death to life. One time act. You don't go through your life passing back and forth from death, to life, to death to life, etc. He said whoever believes will not come into condemnation, and the reason being is because they did this one time act and now have life.

    Life eternal. Life is knowing Jesus and knowing the Father Jesus said. And you can never un-know God.
     
  7. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    I don't believe so. For instance: John 5:24; John 6:37-40; John 10:27-28; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 5:13.

    John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
    ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and .. of ALL that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
    Chapter XVII of the Westminster Confession of Faith, Of the Perseverance of the Saints, does a good job of speaking to this I think.

    Section I.–They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

    Section II.–This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own freewill, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

    Section III.–Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalence of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their perseverance, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalise others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.​

    a. From our sins and from continuing to live in sin/sinful lifestyles on this side of the grave.

    b. From God's wrath, both in this age, and especially in the age to come .. e.g. Romans 5:8-9.

    Maybe. Maybe not. If someone is truly saved, born again and justified by God, see again Section III above of the WCF, Chapter XVII, concerning believers who sin.

    This is a repeat of question #2, so I will answer it somewhat differently. Persevering to the end, albeit imperfectly, is what true Christians do. Posers do not persevere because they were never born again believers to begin with .. Matthew 7:22-23; 1 John 2:19.

    1 John 2
    They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made manifest that none of them belonged to us.

    --David


    [​IMG]
     
  8. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother Jonaitis, nice to meet you and thanks for sharing your thoughts. Some comments provided below for your consideration.
    If you believe someone cannot lose their salvation how do you reconcile the following scriptures;

    HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
    [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

    MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

    HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

    HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

    MATTHEW 13:18-23 [18], Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.
    [19], When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. [20], But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; [21], Yet has he not root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution rises because of the word, by and by he is offended. [22], He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.[23], But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundred times, some sixty, some thirty.

    REVELATION 2:26 And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    REVELATION 3:5
    He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    REVELATION 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write on him my new name.

    REVELATION 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    REVELATION 21:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    Well these are only a few of many more that can be posted. Look foward to your response.
    I like the answer to question 2 brother which is what does it mean only those that are faithful to the end will be saved. However, it does not mean we cannot fall away from the faith 2 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3
    Indeed, JESUS saves us from our sins. We are not saved by continuing in sin *1 JOHN 2:3-4
    Indeed and if this is the case then we are told in 1 JOHN 2:1 [1], My little children, these things write I to you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

    Thanks for sharing brother enjoyed reading your thougts here

    God bless.
     
  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother 1am3laine, nice to meet you and thanks for sharing your thoughts here. Nice answers and always nice to know that we have a Savior in JESUS who wants to save us from our sins.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother

    God bless.
     
  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi brother Blade, nice to see you again and thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. I think you made a very good point by stating as Christians we need to live in the now. It is our relationship with God now that matters not what may have happened years ago.

    Great points brother

    God bless
     
  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother SeventhFisherofMen, nice to meet you here and welcome :).
    I really like your post about the parables. I think that all of these examples in the parable of the sower address the OP here really well. What are your thoughts on the other questions listed in the OP? Thanks for sharing the scriptures on the parable of the sower. Great post.

    God bless
     
  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi Cody, nice to see you and thanks for sharing your thoughts with us brother. How do you think your post here reconciles with the scriptures provided with the OP that seem to disagree with what you are posting here? Thanks for sharing with us Cody look forward to reading your reply.

    God bless
     
  13. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    No you can not lose your eternal life (salvation)

    Most of your verses are speaking about Perseverance of the believer, during difficult times, not salvation of the believer.
    That could be during the tribulation or some of the time after Christ went back to heaven during the Roman attack in 70 a.d..

    For an example Ananias and Sapphira lost their physical life for lying to God. They did not lose their eternal life. They came under discipline from God and this time God's discipline was physical death some times it is not death but something else.

    This is long read but is a very good study on this topic.
    https://www.amazon.com/Reign-Servan...0957/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=

    https://www.amazon.com/Reign-Servant-Kings-Eternal-Security-ebook/dp/B007U79V1U
     
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  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother St_Worm2, nice to see you and thanks for sharing your thoughts here. Some comments and questions for your consideration below.
    Just wishing to look at some of the scriptures you have proved brother. Thanks for sharing them here. Let's start in the order you have provided them. As these are your support scripture you believe that teach one cannot lose their salvation which seem to contradict the scriptures provided in the OP.

    JOHN 5:24 [24], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life.

    Is one who starts off believing and following God's WORD then turns away from God's WORD and is not longer believing and following God's WORD still BELIEVING God's WORD?

    JOHN 6:37-40 [37], All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out. [38], For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. [39], And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    [40], And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Once again, is one who starts off believing and following God's WORD then turns away from God's WORD and is not longer believing and following God's WORD still BELIEVING God's WORD?

    JOHN 10:27-28 [27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    [28], And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    This links with the other scriptures and indicated that God's Sheep are those who hear the WORD of GOD (Jesus) and follow Him. So if one hears the Word of God and no longer follows it they are no longer following God and have become lost sheep *MATTHEW 10:6; LUKE 19:10; LUKE 15:4-6.

    1 THESSALONIANS 5:23-24 [23], And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [24], Faithful is he that calls you, who also will do it.

    Indeed God's promises of salvation is his work in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD and are conditional on us continuing to BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD as it is written in JOHN 8:31-36 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free? [34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin. [35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
    [36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. Once again, is one who starts off believing and following God's WORD then turns away from God's WORD and is not longer believing and following God's WORD still BELIEVING God's WORD?

    Something to think about brother look forward to your reply.
    Sorry brother not sure how you believe this answers question 2?
    Indeed brother David. Salvation is from our sins not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36
    What does God's WORD say in response to question 4 *HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8? Did JESUS come to save us from sin or to continue to sin *JOHN 8:31-36? How do you read 1 JOHN 3:3-10 and 1 JOHN 2:1-4?

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us brother David and nice to talk with you.

    God bless
     
  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother d taylor, thanks for sharing your thoughts here with us brother. I am just wondering if Ananias and Sapphira lied to God and did not confess their sins in repentance and faith and died before doing so where does it say that someone doing these things in God's WORD has not lost their salvation? How do you reconcile the following scriptures.

    1 JOHN 1:9, [9] IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

    PROVERBS 28:13 He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.

    HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

    MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

    HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

    HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

    COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23
    [12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    [13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    [14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.....
    [23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

    ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

    REVELATION 2:26 [26], And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations

    2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3 [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

    1 PETER 4:18 [18], And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    REVELATION 2:26 And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    REVELATION 3:5
    He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    REVELATION 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write on him my new name.

    REVELATION 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    REVELATION 21:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    Well these are only a few of many more that can be posted. Look foward to your response.

    Thanks for sharing brother look forward to your response

    God bless.
     
  16. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Those who are fixated on the uncertainty of believers enduring to the end, are themselves insecure in their faith and fearful of backsliding. They don't have a complete understanding of what being a new creation in Christ actually is, and the power of the Holy Spirit within them to keep them on the road to heaven until they get there.

    "God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, power and a sound mind" (2 Timothy 1:7).
    "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love" (1 John 4:18).
     
  17. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

    +1,619
    United States
    Reformed
    Single
    US-Republican
    Sure, I'll try to answer each one.

    This is a warning to the recipients of this epistle that there are tares among the wheat in the church, and these often show themselves to be so, as they grow up together, by their works. We should also compare Scripture with Scripture, never isolating passages from other places where it speaks more clearly. In the reference you provided, we must compare it with passages like this one:

    "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother" (1 John. 3:9-10)

    Whereas in Heb. 10:26-17, people who deliberately sin appear to fall away, this passage above shows that deliberate sinners aren't born again, and that the children of God are evident by their works. This is one example, but we must understand Scripture in light of Scripture where it speaks more clearly on.

    Another thing to look at is the context. In that same chapter, we read a little earlier in verse 14 that "by a single offering [Jesus] has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." This looks like an apparent contradiction to verse 26-27 if we take it to mean real believers can fall away; that he perfected his people who have the potential to fall away? Either Christ's offering and sacrifice sufficiently perfects those being sanctified, or that it is actually insufficient so far as that a believer can still fall short of being perfected. If we can fall out of the work of Christ, then we must call his work insufficient to completely save. We would have to call what he did as half the work, because we would have to complete it to remain saved by our works. This again places our salvation based on works.

    Let's continue to talk about the context, because we read in that same chapter this:

    "But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls" (v. 39). Wait a minute, why did he say this when he just talked about apostasy among believers? We are not those who shrink back and are destroyed? He gives the reason too for why we aren't those people: "who have faith and preserve their souls." So, even in the context of this passage, real faith preserves the soul from apostasy. Scripture interprets Scripture, amazing isn't it?

    Notice that verse 7-8 speaks of two kinds of people: land that produces useful crops, and land that bears thorns and thistles. This is the most ignored part of this passage when brought up. It was added to show that the description of verse 4-6 speak of the land that produces thorns and thistles, just like the parable of the tares and wheat Jesus spoke about.

    The next thing ignored is verse 9 which says thus:

    "Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things - things that belong to salvation."

    ^^so then...4-6 isn't about someone who is saved? Yep. Matter of fact, the inspired writer in verse 10 proves that they aren't such people who apostatizes by reminding them of their good works (remember the land that produces a crop receives a blessing in verse 8?). Scripture interprets Scripture, amazing isn't it?

    I don't so much see the correlation between this and the idea of believers falling away. I'm lead to think that verse 13 was addressed above that our endurance is an evidence of real faith.

    Same as Matt. 24:13 above.

    Notice the way the inspired writer phrases verse 14:

    "For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end."

    Our perseverance is evidence of our share in Christ is what I am seeing here.

    Same thing as above, he uses the same wording "if indeed..."

    Actually, this parable affirms that there are many professors who aren't really in the faith. If the ground is our hearts and the word of God is the seed being sown, wouldn't that mean there are certain people already prepared to receive the word under these different instances? It isn't saying that the ground changes its environment, which seem to be what you are suggesting. Rather, the ground determines how the seed will grow, doesn't it? So too, if the seed is sown in the right ground, it will produce in the right way. This actually affirms that there will be people who don't receive the word right in order to become a useful plant that bears fruit for salvation.

    A call for perseverance as mentioned already above.

    A call for perseverance as mentioned already above.

    A call for perseverance as mentioned already above.

    A call for perseverance as mentioned already above.

    A call for perseverance as mentioned already above.
     
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    +1,152
    Australia
    SDA
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    Hello Oscarr, nice to see you and thanks for sharing your thoughts here. God's WORD is the only rule of faith and we are admoinished to;

    2 CORINTHIANS 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates?

    Which in my view is good advice considering that there will be many on that day that thought and believed that they were following God and were not following God...

    MATTHEW 7:22-23 [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work sin.

    and again a little earlier...

    MATTHEW 7:13-20
    [13], Enter you in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    [14], Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.
    [15], Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    [16], You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    [17], Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
    [18], A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    [19], Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    [20], Why by their fruits you shall know them.

    The issue here and in the OP is to examine ourselves as it is ONLY all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD that are in a saved state with God. According to God's WORD all those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD through love. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    It is not God's will that we sin but if we do we have an advocate with the father *1 JOHN 2:1-4

    God bless.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  19. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

    +37,750
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    Hi LoveGodsWord, we don't "start off" following God's word, we start off by believing/coming to saving faith in Jesus and in what He did for us. Everything we do (after that point) as a Christian is the result of our believing (as well, of course, the result of everything that God did in us/changed in us to make our coming to saving faith in Christ and becoming a true Christian possible .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:4-5).

    We who hear and then come to saving faith in Jesus, come into possession of "eternal life" from the moment we first believe (not temporal or probationary life). We will not stand, nor be judged and condemned in the Judgement (Great White Throne) along with the reprobate, because we have, in fact, already passed from death to life :amen: .. John 5:24.

    Rather, we who are His are made wholly new creatures in Christ .. 2 Corinthians 5:17, made His workmanship ~FOR~ good works, not because of them .. Ephesians 2:8-10.

    Titus 3
    He saved us, NOT on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.

    Those who are not already Christians/not born again and justified by God, neither know nor can they obey God .. see cf Matthew 7:22-23; e.g. 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14.

    No one who has come to 'saving' faith will turn back to their former ways of sinful living (or worse) and not seek forgiveness, repent and return to the faith/to God, at least before the end, because God preserves us/makes sure that those of us who are truly His will persevere (even if highly imperfectly throughout our days here) .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 5:13.

    If He did not, Jesus' promise to us that He will lose NONE of those who are His (none of those who were drawn and given to Him by His Father) could not possibly be true.

    John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
    ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and .. of ALL that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
    This is getting to be quite a bit longer than I intended. I will finish my reply to you in my next post.

    --David
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  20. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +6,231
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
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    If a person becomes a whole new creature after being converted to Christ, and the old man of the flesh died with Christ on the cross and did not rise again with Christ when He rose from the dead. So the old man with all his sins is a corpse in a coffin in a grave somewhere in heaven.

    So, if a person is trying to repent of the sins in his old man, he is trying to reform someone who is a corpse. Would you get a dead body out of its grave, give it a facelift, put a new suit on it, put makeup on it and take it out to dinner? If you tried, you could be just a pelican operating out of the spirit of stupidity!

    So, Paul says to put off the old man and walk in the Spirit as the new man. What I have discovered is that if a person persists in willful sin, then he has not yet put on the new man. He is committing a much greater sin that will have him end up in hell. He is in unbelief. He does not believe the Scripture that tells him that he is a new creature in Christ, that Jesus became his sinful self and died, being punished for his sin instead of him. As a result of being a new creature in Christ, he has become the righteousness of God in Christ.

    Therefore his new man in Christ is totally righteous and free of sin. Therefore he needs, by faith, to reckon his old man to be dead and in the grave. Therefore repentance from sin is for those who are not converted and under the Law. They have a visitation experience like those in the Old Testament. Truly converted believers have a habitation experience where the Holy Spirit dwells right inside of them and does not come and go.

    So it not a repentance from the works of the flesh as outlined in Galatians 5, but, through the new man, the putting on of the fruit of the Spirit as outlined in that same chapter.

    For example, if a person has an anger problem, instead of trying to repent from the anger, which is from a visitation attitude, he, through the new man who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, puts on patience, so that when the temptation of anger comes, he chooses patience which displaces the temptation to get angry.

    For every work of the flesh (sin), there is a corresponding fruit of the Spirit. So if a believer needs holiness in a particular area, then he needs to see the fruit of the Spirit that needs to be "put on" to counteract the particular temptation.

    So, if you are persisting on telling believers that they must repent from sin, you are treating them as Old Testament believers under the Law, instead of new creatures in Christ. If that is what you are doing, you could be in unbelief, not believing the Scripture: "If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new".
     
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