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CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Jul 10, 2020.

  1. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    This an easy yes or no answer. There are 613 laws in the Torah.

    Will a believer lose their Eternal Life, if they do not keep the laws. For an example if a believer does not keep the Sabbath, will they lose their Eternal Life.

    I know the free grace answer which is the Biblical answer.
     
  2. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    The scenario you gave does not exist when Revelation covers the Tribulation. It speaks of those who loved not their own lives onto death. So, your "scenario" is out of touch of how things will be when the Tribulation hits.

    You are just making stuff up because of your need to study Revelation from a competent teacher. Ignorance does that. We are told not to remain ignorant. So, I guess its time you start searching for some good solid teaching from someone prepared to teach you what Revelation contains.

    In the mean time your scenario is your fantasy. It does not fit in with how things will be during the Tribulation. What if someone does this or that? Jesus made it clear that no one who is saved will never lose his salvation. How clever of you to make something up and then demand and answer...

    Just believe Jesus. Stop second guessing him. For He was not just a man as you are portraying Him to be. God can not lie. Men do... all day long. Jesus was not a jerk.
     
  3. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    That gets one cut off from empowering fellowship with the Holy Spirit. It means the Spirit is not longer controlling you, and that the flesh is now running your life.
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps in the scriptures you are referring to but the scriptures you refer to here in this post we were not discussing and none of them support your view and say we can stop believing and following Gods' Word to return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive eternal life. Your teaching in this regards is in disagreement with Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31. The scriptures I was actually referring to if you read my original post to you were discussing John 3:15-16; 36 and many other scriptures from the books and epistles of John (See post # 587 for a detailed response on the other scriptures examples from John if your interested), that show that the scriptures in John that use the Greek word translated in English as "believe" πιστεύων is a Greek verb that is present participle active which is nominative masculine singular (V-PPA-NMS). It means that the Greek word πιστεύων being used in these scriptures is present tense active to a continual believing in the now (present tense active). Now is ongoing and continuous. So our faith must be ongoing and continuous. If you look at parallel translations you will see that πιστεύων here is translated as "everyone who believes" (present tense active) or better yet in other translations "every one who is believing" (present tense active). The scriptures are not referring to someone that believed yesterday and no longer "believes" and follows God's Word today who fall away from the faith into unbelief rejecting Gods' Word in order to live a live of known unrepentant sin which we are warned against in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-27.

    Hope this is helpful.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  5. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello FG2, Please forgive me if I respectfully disagree with your claims here. You have been provided a lot of scripture in this thread showing that eternal life is conditional on believing and following Gods Word. You have also been shown that justification through faith is only conditional on us believing God's Word in order to receive Gods forgiveness through God's grace love and mercy in sending us the gift of Gods' dear son to die on the cross for our sins. You have also been shown through the scriptures in post # 407 linked that God's promises as we continue to grow in God's grace and knowledge of His Word are conditional promises to believing and following what Gods' Word says. Then you were provided scripture from John in John 3:15-16; 36; John 10:26-28 that shows that the Greek word for believe in these scriptures of John and other scriptures from John are in application to continual belief or to believing (present tense active; see post # 587 for a detailed response on the other scriptures examples from John if your interested). So our faith must be ongoing and continuous. The scriptures are not referring to someone that believed yesterday and no longer "believes" and follows God's Word today who fall away from the faith into unbelief rejecting Gods' Word in order to live a live of known unrepentant sin which we are warned against in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-27. So to claim that you have not been provided any scripture when in fact you have been provided a lot of scripture that disagrees with you. All of your scriptures have also been addressed to show that they do not support your view of once saved always saved and your interpretation of them is not biblical. So to make claims that you have not been provided any scripture in this thread is not being truthful. God's forgiveness for our sins is unconditional as we believe Gods' Word and accept Christ free gift of forgiveness and promise of eternal life but Christian growth is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says. I have also asked you for a single scripture that says we can believe Gods' Word and follow Gods' Word yesterday and not longer believe and follow Gods' Word today and still receive Gods' promise of eternal life? At the same time you have also been provided scriptures warning us that if we (believers) against departing the faith to become unbelievers and return to a life of known unrepentant sin in *Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39 and Matthew 7:21-23 that says if we do we will lose our salvation (see also, 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4; Galatians 5:16; Revelation 12:17: Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14) . Remember dear friend without holiness (justification and sanctification) no man shall see God *Hebrews 12:14.

    Something to pray about.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  6. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Not at all dear friend. I believe I have demonstrated by God's grace that justification by faith is only conditional on receiving God's promise of forgiveness and eternal life by faith and that sanctification (Christian growth) by faith is conditional on believing and following Gods' Word this is in complete agreement and harmony with Gods' Word that we should believe and follow (see also Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17: Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4; John 8:31-36; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39 etc etc..)
    We may have to agree to disagree here dear friend. (see posts # 406; post # 407; post # 424; post # 481; post # 485; post # 486 ; post # 487; post # 488; post # 489; post # 490; post # 491; post # 492; post # 493; post # 494; post # 495; post # 497; post # 502; post # 511; post # 525; post # 526; post # 532; post # 534; post # 537; post # 539; post # 540; post # 584; post # 587; post # 588; etc..)
    Why post the same scriptures over and over when I did address these showing that many of these scriptures are to do with justification by faith which is only conditional on believing God's Word in order to receive Gods forgiveness of sins? I agree with everyone of these scriptures. What I believe your not considering here is that there is both justification by faith in order to received God's forgiveness and sanctification by faith which is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says. You have been provided the scriptures in regards to this already. You may also want to consider the questions I asked you. What does it mean to believe Gods' Word? Do we believe God's Word by not doing what Gods' Word asks us to do or can we believe Gods' Word but not do what God asks us to do which James calls the dead faith of devils in James 2:17-20; 26? Where in any one of these scriptures does it also say we can believe and follow Gods yesterday and not longer need to believe and follow Gods' Word today? - It doesn't and there is no scriptures.

    Something to pray about.
     
  7. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    "But he who endures to the end will be saved."

    My pastor who was a Greek scholar for over 50 years rendered Mat 24:13 as follows -

    But, in contrast, the believer who endures to the end (through Bible doctrine) [hupomeno] will be (physically delivered)." (Zechariah 14:1-4; Isaiah 63:1-6)."

    That meant that he who endured during the Tribulation to follow what is needed during that time.. To live by God's Word and not ones emotions. Those will remain alive to enter into the Millennium. Otherwise, those who live according to their emotions will die the sin onto death from God's discipline for being a coward by panicking into their emotions... By not living by the Word.. These ones will not enter into the Millennium alive, and will have to wait 1000 years for their resurrection.
     
  8. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    As I already stated, under the gospel of the kingdom, members of Israel will only know they are finally saved, when the kingdom of heaven finally comes on Earth (Acts 3:19-21, Hebrews 8:12, 1 Peter 1:9, Romans 11:25-27).

    They have no concept of present salvation the moment they believed, that was a mystery revealed only by the apostle Paul for the Body of Christ.

    You are trying to read that mystery into the 4 gospels.

    Let's move on from this, we can agree to disagree.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  9. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    You still think you know what I am saying.... And, you do not.

    You're all over the place and it seems you can't stand still... I get the feeling you are not really sure about what you are trying to tell us...

    Salvation was not a mystery. What the benefits were to be for those in the Church age was the mystery.
     
  10. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I could say likewise of you.

    I am contrasting between future and present salvation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    How many commandments are there in Gods 10 commandments written on two tables of stone according to the scriptures? Was there 9, 10 or 613? The answer of course is in the question. The answer from scripture to this question is found in Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13 and Deuteronomy 10:4 if anyone is interested. Sin according to the scriptures in transgression of Gods' law *1 John 3:4 and if we knowingly break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments according to James in James 2:10-11 we stand guilty before God of sin.

    According to God's Word everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as a requirement for Christian living (scripture support here) and taught by Jesus and the Apostles (scripture support here). According to the scriptures the purpose of God's 10 commandments is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (more right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and if we knowingly break anyone of them according to James we stand guilty before God of sin. This of course includes God's 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed.

    According to Gods Word however, God does not hold us accountable for sin until he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we choose to reject his Word according to Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27 and James 4:17. God knows that many have been falsely taught that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in place of God's 4th commandment. So in times of ignorance God winks at until he gives us a knowledge of the truth of his Word. At this time God expects us to believe and follow him.

    The hour is coming and now is says Jesus that the true worshipers will worship Him in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. God's people according to the scriptures are in every church living up to all the light from his Word that He has revealed to them.

    God is calling us all out from following man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God back to the pure Word of God. According to Jesus if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. The question we must all ask ourselves is who do we believe and follow God or man?

    Hope this is helpful.
     
  12. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    I think you are confused about what the "mystery" is. Its not about OSAS.

    The mystery is about believers entering into union with Christ as to become the Bride of Christ. To end up with a resurrection body just like The Lord has now in His glorified state.

    The mystery also has to do with the unique state and enabling of grace that OT saints never knew of. OT saints had to be under the Law to restrain their flesh out of fear of reprisal. Church age believers have now been given the Spirit to control their flesh as to live in a manner unconsciously fulfilling the Law with ease and relaxation after maturity.

    The OT saints were looking forward to an eternal 'earth bound' kingdom on the new earth. The mystery unknown to them was the eternal home in heaven granted only to the Church age believers.

    And, that was just some of the points... It looks like you confuse OSAS with it being the mystery. Just look at King Saul. He inquired of the witch of Endor and as a result, was told he soon would die the sin unto death and be with Samuel after he did. He had OSAS. Its nothing to do with the mystery Paul speaks of.
     
  13. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    As I said, likewise, you think you understand what others are saying but you don't.

    I never said the mystery was OSAS.

    I said present salvation.
     
  14. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    But, OSAS is always... Salvation is forever. Losing the benefits is what can be lost, but not one's salvation. You seem to be saying OSAS is dispensational, and not for all believers throughout history.

    Will you come out and say it? OSAS is for only certain believers?
     
  15. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I already presented the Tribulation scenario, to show that salvation cannot be present salvation for Israel.

    Rather, salvation comes only at the end of the Tribulation, as stated in 1 Peter 1:9, Acts 3:19-21, Hebrews 8:12

    Most people avoid it by using a circular argument: that if someone takes the mark later on, it means he never really believed in the first place.

    This circular argument allows them to preserve their doctrine of present salvation that can never be lost, even for the Tribulation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  16. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    You only presented a scenario of your own fantasy. Its not what Revelations says will be happening at that time to those whom God knows are His. I wish you knew more, but you do not. The conditions of the Millennium and what the Lord (and angels) will be doing to the people on earth just cannot make room to fit your fantasy. You're assuming its going to be business as usual. Those whom you claim will be given the option.. if they truly believed will rather die than switch because God will have made the realities of the Truth of the Word PAINFULLY undeniable for anyone who believes.

    But. I'll leave you where you are. I do not get the impression that you think you need to learn anything beyond what you now assume to know.

    God always knows where your thinking will grow to being tomorrow...

    so be it. Grace and peace, brother.
     
  17. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I already said to agree to disagree and move on. You are also not going to change your mind anyway.
     
  18. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    So you will not give an answer yes or no to the question. Will a believer lose their Eternal Life if they break The Law.
     
  19. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    As long as you have a desire to badger and confuse baby Christians who might not yet know better, I'm going to keep an eye on you.

    God's nature does not change. You god's nature does.


    Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength,
    and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for
    the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and
    night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of
    the Lamb and by the word of their testimony,
    and they did not love
    their lives to the death."
    Rev 12:10-11​

    Your scenario requires they fear death. Its going to be different!

    If someone brought you to the edge of hell, and you saw the horrors of what awaits there?
    Would you at that point throw away your salvation? The Tribulation is going to present exposures to realities in their own back yards. Realities to see and touch that we now can not know... That is why I said you need to study Revelation from a competent teacher.

    If you were walked to the edge of Hell? If it was convincing.... Would you not rather die first than reject Christ?

    The Tribulation is going to be an overwhelming virtual horror show in their backyard. One that will cause those who believe to know Hell is real. Such a mind set would never commit the insanity you proposed because Jesus Christ and the Word of God will be too real to them to play such games with God.
     
  20. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Are you post or pre trib?
     
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