CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?

[Guojing]

I read the words of Scripture and then believe them.

So, when Jesus said, "I give them eternal life" in Jn 10:28, I know He is referring to believers, since He also said that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life in Jn 5:24. Then, after saying He gives believers eternal life in 10:28, He said "and they shall never perish".

And I take that to the bank. Once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. That is exactly what Jesus was saying.

He gives eternal life. The recipient shall never perish.

What you are actually doing is reading Paul into the 4 gospels, into what Jesus was saying to the nation Israel under the gospel of the kingdom..

In the end, you are correct, there is OSAS, but that is only found in Romans to Philemon, which is the gospel that saves during this age.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ No. It does not state something else. Hebrews 4:6-8 is talking about falling away and departing the faith to renew oneself to repentance. Another words they have returned to a life of known unrepentant sin after being given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word.

Your response here...

Repentance means to change direction, to turn around. To change direction and face Jesus. To turn from the law and turn to Jesus.

To change direction from what? According to the scriptures the purpose of Gods' law in the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. So God's 10 commandment are the standard of what is right and what is wrong. Breaking anyone of them is sin according to James in James 2:10-11 just like it is sin not to believe and follow what God's Word says according to Paul in Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6. Repentance therefore according to Romans 6:1-23 is to change direction or as you have said to turn away from sin (moral wrong doing) to believe and obey Gods' Word through faith. We do not turn away from the law as all the law does is to give us a knowledge of good and evil is and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. We are to turn away (repent) from breaking God's law that is we are to turn away (repent) from sin or the transgression of Gods' law and through turning to Christs Word through faith *Romans 10:17; John 17:17; John 6:63.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑Sin is the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4

Your response here...

For a Jew that is true, the Jews in the time of Jesus were raised under the law. Gentiles on the other hand, did not know the law. Therefore, sin for a Gentile has a different definition. Sin for a Gentile would be everything that is not of faith. I don't agree with your emphasis on the law. I am a Gentile that was never a member of that former covenant between God and Israel. Hence the book of the law has little value for a Gentile. What I don't believe is that the power of sin and death is still applicable to Christians.

Not really David. The scripture does not say sin is transgression of the law for the Jew and not the Gentile that is trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. We should be careful to read the scriptures exactly as they say and the scripture says.

1 John 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

According to the scriptures, under the new covenant, God's Israel are all those who believe and follow God's Word. God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are no longer those who are born of the flesh but all those who through faith are now born of the Spirit *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:27-28; Romans 2:28-29. There is not a different set of laws for Jewish believers and Gentile believers as we are all now one in Christ *Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13. According to the scriptures in the new covenant "A Jew is not one outwardly neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God (Romans 2:28-29). So God's Word is for all those who believe and follow God's Word who are born of the Spirit, not Jews and Gentile born of the flesh. According to the scriptures if we are not a part of God's ISRAEL born of the Spirit through believing and following Gods' Word we have no part in Gods new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27. Gentile believers are not grafted in to Gods' Israel born of the Spirit in place of Jewish unbelievers born of the flesh and not of the Spirit *Romans 11:13-27.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑All unrepentant sin leads to death in those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace *Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 18:4; Hebrews 10:26-27. The only sin that does not lead to death are sins that are forgiven. Unrepentant sin is not forgiven *Hebrews 10:26-27. Now what is it here that you do not believe?

Your response here...

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. See LGW, you have been set free from sin and death. You teach that to transgress the law is death. But Christians have been liberated from the law of sin and death, set free from the penalty of sin.

According to the scriptures we are set free from the condemnation of breaking Gods' law which the scriptures define as sin *1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11 which leads to the penalty of sin which is death because the wages of sin (that is breaking God's Law) leads to death to all those who reject the gift of Gods' dear son and count the blood of the covenant and unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of Gods' grace *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-31. We are not set free from obedience to God's law in order to continue in known unrepentant sin (breaking God's law) because if we continue in sin we will die (Romans 8:13: Hebrews 10:26-31). We are set free from the power of sin's control in our lives making us servants of sin *John 8:34 and it is sin (breaking God's law or not believing and following Gods' Word) that leads to death. We are made free by being born again (1 John 3:6-9) to walk in God's Spirit (Galatians 5:16) to obey Gods' law through faith according to the scriptures *Romans 8:1-4. Faith however, does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods law in all those who believe and follow God's Word *Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4. God's salvation therefore is not from the requirement of obedience to God's law but from sin which is breaking God's law, as Paul says all the law does is to give us the knowledge of what sin is in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and is therefore holy just and good in Romans 7:12. Gods' salvation is from sin according to Jesus in John 8:31-36 as we continue believing and following God's Word (see also 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Look I have been reading along in what you have been posting to my responses to you FG2. All I see is much more of the same. Your not addressing the content of my posts but simply stating disagreement and providing opinions without biblical reasoning let me explain what I mean and why I am saying this...

For example even in the recent post today where you respond to my post from John 3:15-16; 36 John 10:27-28 and my use of Daniel Wallace's commentary to John 3 where I was discussing John #:15-16; 36; John 10:26-27 and other supporting scriptures from Johns epistles that shows that the use of the Greek word for "believe" is present tense active to continual belief, you post back commentary from Wallace that have nothing to do with these scriptures but references to other scriptures using the word believe that were completely not relevant to what I was posting to you.

These kind of posts are misleading and not relevant to the content you are responding to. You then ask me prove to you that eternal life is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says from the scriptures when I have already done so from scripture hand waiving away the scriptures shared with you pretending that I have not provided anything from the scriptures that prove eternal life is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says. All this time you have yet to show me a single scripture that says we can believe in God like the devils do (dead faith of James) with out following what Gods' Word says and still be saved.

I believe your mistake here is not understanding, the difference between unconditional justification and conditional sanctification and Christian growth through a knowledge of the Word of God that leads to a life of holiness as we believe and follow what Gods' Word says. This is where your mistake is in your interpretation of the scriptures.

You quote scriptures to do with unconditional justification and think that there is no process of conditional sanctification and Christian growth into holiness. Yet the scriptures teach without holiness no man shall see God. If I am being honest with you, I think your too busy trying to be right that you cannot see what is being shared with you that might be a blessing and a help to you. I only say this in love and pray that you might consider what is actually being shared with you here.

We should be careful not to ignore God's Word and rightly divide the Word of truth. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear as it will become our judge come judgment day for the words of God we accept or reject according to John 12:47-48.

I do not see any point in continuing a discussion with you if you are not reading and trying to understand what is being shared with you here. You do know that unconditional justification (e.g. thief on the cross; babe in Christ etc) is not the same as sanctification which is Christian growth leading to holiness which is conditional to believing and following what God's Word says right?

I'm stilll waiting for your BEST single verse about eternal life being given on the basis of obedience.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
IF the Bible says this, then PROVE it with a clear verse.

I think your being a bit abrasive.

Nope. I'm being direct. People need to be able to have a verse for what they claim.

I respect your stance on being sure someone isn’t teaching a losable salvation. But a lot of times language is the issue and not our faith as Christians. Remember. Language is an issue with humans. When we all spoke the same language. God stopped that. Why. Because of sin. We can’t understand each other at all. Imagine if we all spoke the same language. We’d give up on humanity fast seeing our inability to honor our speech[/QUOTE]
Those who teach false doctrine must at some point realize that they DON'T have a verse that says what they claim.

I CAN prove my view from Scripture.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'm stilll waiting for your BEST single verse about eternal life being given on the basis of obedience.

You have already been provided a lot of scripture that disagrees with your teachings. Though you do not believe them so I will leave that between you and God to work through. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear according to John 12:47-48.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Those who teach false doctrine must at some point realize that they DON'T have a verse that says what they claim. I CAN prove my view from Scripture.

As shown through my posts to you already and the scriptures that disagree with your teachings, I would disagree with your statement and claim here. Sometimes people accuse others of doing the thing that they themselves are actually guilty of (false doctrine) according to Romans 2:1. Let's be careful that we do not close our eyes and ears to seeing and hearing Gods' word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Of course. Because I believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.

God remembers sin until there is confession of those sins. 1 John 1:9

Better hope you can remember every sin you have ever committed and every sinful thought. If you cannot remember every sinful thought and act, then you are an unrepentant sinner.

This reveals what you seem to not understand about 1 John 1:9.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

The red words are what believers are to do.
The blue words refers to the result of confessing the sins.
The green word indicate that even the unconfessed sins, due to forgetfulness, are cleansed.

I thought Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for our sin?

Keep thinking that thought!

Is my salvation based on the power of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, or my ability to repent from sin?

No one's salvation is based on anyone's "ability to repent". Why would you even ask this?

Salvation is based solely on what Jesus did on the cross. There is nothing you or I can do to help God save us. All we can do is trust the promise of eternal salvation. God is in charge and keeps His promises.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What you are actually doing is reading Paul into the 4 gospels, into what Jesus was saying to the nation Israel under the gospel of the kingdom..

In the end, you are correct, there is OSAS, but that is only found in Romans to Philemon, which is the gospel that saves during this age.

Uh, what is your point here? Sincd you agree that OSAS is found in Romans to Philemon, are you suggesting that it isn't found elsewhere?

Haven't you ever read John's gospel? It's full of eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have already been provided a lot of scripture that disagrees with your teachings. Though you do not believe them so I will leave that between you and God to work through. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear according to John 12:47-48.

I'm still waiting for your BEST single verse that links salvation to "doing what God's Word says".

And I can't wait for Rom 2:6-8.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Uh, what is your point here? Sincd you agree that OSAS is found in Romans to Philemon, are you suggesting that it isn't found elsewhere? Haven't you ever read John's gospel? It's full of eternal security.

Actually once saved always saved is not biblical. I believe from our conversations that your confusing unconditional justification by faith for when we first come to Christ with conditional sanctification which is learning God's Word and believing and following what Gods' Word says through faith. Do you know the difference between known and unknown sin and justification and sanctification? - I think this is perhaps where your problem is from our discussion of the scriptures.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I CAN prove my view from Scripture.

As shown through my posts to you already and the scriptures that disagree with your teachings, I would disagree with your statement and claim here.

I've already proven my claims. Remember the long list of verses I provided about salvation and eteranl life?

Sometimes people accuse others of doing the thing that they themselves are actually guilty of (false doctrine) according to Romans 2:1.

That's my take on YOUR posts.

Let's be careful that we do not close our eyes and ears to hearing Gods' word.

Right. Let's not. And I'm still waiting for that verse that supports your claim.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'm still waiting for your BEST single verse that links salvation to "doing what God's Word says". And I can't wait for Rom 2:6-8.

Why? You are yet to address any of my posts to you, while completely ignoring and not responding to others that have a lot of scripture and questions in them that show why your teachings are not biblical. Why would you think providing another scripture will make any difference to your understanding of the scriptures? You are obviously not opened to discussion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually once saved always saved is not biblical.

Oh, please stop it. I believe Jesus in John 10:28. Sad that you seem not to.

Your confusing unconditional justification for when we first come to Christ with conditional sanctification which is learning God's Word and believing and following what Gods' Word says through faith. Do you know the difference between known and unknown sin and justification and sanctification? - I think this is where your problem lies.

This reveals your own confusion. First, the Bible teaches that justification is by faith, Rom 3, 5:1. So it's NOT unconditional. Maybe you definition of "unconditional" differs from mine.

Second, sanctification is the process of spiritual growth. Some grow and some don't. Which has nothing to do with salvation or eternal security.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I CAN prove my view from Scripture.

This we will of course disagree on. I do not believe you.

I've already proven my claims. Remember the long list of verses I provided about salvation and eteranl life?

This we will of course disagree on. I do not believe you. Your list of verses were shown not to support your claims because you failed to define faith and only provided scripture to do with unconditional justification which is what I agree with and why I asked you do you know the difference between unconditional justification through faith and conditional sanctification though faith (believing and following) God's Word. All I got back was silence...

That's my take on YOUR posts. Right. Let's not. And I'm still waiting for that verse that supports your claim.

As posted earlier according to Isaiah it is hard to see and hear what one does not want to see and hear even it is it put right in front of them. Jesus says something similar in John 3:18-21.

Something we should all pray about I guess.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I'm still waiting for your BEST single verse that links salvation to "doing what God's Word says". And I can't wait for Rom 2:6-8.

Why? You are yet to address any of my posts to you, while completely ignoring and not responding to others that have a lot of scripture and questions in them that show why your teachings are not biblical.

You need to stop all these falsehoods. When I first began responding to your posts, I addressed most of your long posts.

Why would you think providing another scripture will make any difference to your understanding of the scriptures? You are obviously not opened to discussion.

This is typical of the response I get when I challenge posters for verses that say what they claim.

They falsely accuse me of "not believing" what they claim their verses say, so don't want to add more verses.

I, otoh, am glad to provide verses that say what I believe. As I've already done for you.

And, btw, how many of those verses did you address and show me how they don't support my views? None.

So stop accusing me of not responding to your posts. The whole world can see how much I've posted to you.

But I'm tired of not getting any response to my points.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I CAN prove my view from Scripture.

This we will of course disagree on. I do not believe you.

What's sad is that your view reveals that you do not believe Jesus either.

He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Now, have you even tried to show that He didn't say/mean that? No. But you clearly don't believe that.

Your long list of verses were shown not to support your claims because you failed to define faith and only provided scripture to do with unconditional justification which is what I agree with and why I asked you do you know the difference between unconditional justification and conditional sanctification though believing and following God's Word. All I got back was silence...

This is amazing! In not a good way. None of my list of verses even mentioned justification, so what on earth are you talking about. They were ALL about salvation and eternal life. And the SINGLE condition was faith/believing.

You want a definition of "faith"? As a noun, it's the body of belief of something. As a verb, it is fully trusting in the truth of something or someone.

As posted earlier according to Isaiah it is hard to see and hear what one does not want to see and hear even it is it put right in front of them. Jesus says something similar in John 3:18-21.

No kidding.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Oh, please stop it. I believe Jesus in John 10:28. Sad that you seem not to.

No need. Your making claims that are not biblical. As shown through the scriptures, As shown earlier through the scriptures I beleive John 10:27-28 does not support your position it is actually against it. I am not sure why you cannot see this.

LoveGodsWord wrote: Your confusing unconditional justification for when we first come to Christ with conditional sanctification which is learning God's Word and believing and following what Gods' Word says through faith. Do you know the difference between known and unknown sin and justification and sanctification? - I think this is where your problem lies

Your response here..

This reveals your own confusion. First, the Bible teaches that justification is by faith, Rom 3, 5:1. So it's NOT unconditional. Maybe you definition of "unconditional" differs from mine. Second, sanctification is the process of spiritual growth. Some grow and some don't. Which has nothing to do with salvation or eternal security.

Of course everything is by faith that was not the point of my question to you. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23. My question to you was in regards to faith that requires action or obedience to what Gods' Word says. Some scriptures like those of the promise of God's forgiveness are unconditional only requiring us to believe God's Word and accept God's promise of forgiveness the moment we believe we have God's forgiveness of sins (justification). The term unconditional justification was used to refer only to the single act of believing Gods' promise of salvation only requiring faith or belief (e.g. thief on the cross). Sanctification however is conditional that requires faith the produces the fruit of obedience to what God's Word says. Now what is the difference between known and unknown sin in the process of sanctification? If your not growing in Gods grace and learning of Gods Word and believing and following what God's Word says how can you be Christs disciples? (please read John 8:31-36)

 

[Guojing]

Uh, what is your point here? Sincd you agree that OSAS is found in Romans to Philemon, are you suggesting that it isn't found elsewhere?

Haven't you ever read John's gospel? It's full of eternal security.

You must distinguish between the gospel of the kingdom for Israel and the gospel of the grace of God for the Body of Christ.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I'm still waiting for your BEST single verse that links salvation to "doing what God's Word says". And I can't wait for Rom 2:6-8.

Your just repeating yourself now. As posted earlier I am still waiting for you to address a detailed scripture response from my earlier posts and the scriptures in them that disagree with your teachings and an answer from you to my questions asked of you. I asked you to provide me with a single scripture that says that we can have belief in God like the devils do without following what Gods Word says and still have eternal life while at the same time providing scripture to you from Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-29 that show even if we were once believers and fall away from the faith to become unbelievers back to known unrepentant sin we will lose eternal life. All I am hearing from you in regards to my request for scripture here is silence.

You need to stop all these falsehoods. When I first began responding to your posts, I addressed most of your long posts.

As posted earlier, I have only told you the truth, providing Gods' Word which are not my words but Gods. Your response to my posts and the scriptures shared with you is to provide your words that disagree with Gods' Word. Even the scriptures that you have posted we have spent time examining only to find that they do not agree with your interpretation of them. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on your claims here.

LoveGodsWord wrote: Why would you think providing another scripture will make any difference to your understanding of the scriptures? You are obviously not opened to discussion.

Your response here...

This is typical of the response I get when I challenge posters for verses that say what they claim. They falsely accuse me of "not believing" what they claim their verses say, so don't want to add more verses.
I, otoh, am glad to provide verses that say what I believe. As I've already done for you.
And, btw, how many of those verses did you address and show me how they don't support my views? None. So stop accusing me of not responding to your posts. The whole world can see how much I've posted to you. But I'm tired of not getting any response to my points.

Perhaps if you get similar responses from other people it might be time to examine yourself and see why you are getting these responses? You make challenges then when your challenge is accepted and scriptures provided you simply ignore them and hand waive them away with out addressing them or discussing them or simply ignore what is written in these posts because they do not agree with your teachings. As posted earlier there is no scripture that you have provided here that supports your teachings that has not been examined and addressed showing that your interpretation of them is not supported within the scripture.

Something to pray about I guess.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I CAN prove my view from Scripture.

Yes you keep on saying this. I have already told you I do not believe your claims here and have shown why addressing your posts claims from the scriptures which I believe disagree with your interpretation of them. I do not think saying you can support your view from the scriptures over and over will somehow magically make this claim come true.

What's sad is that your view reveals that you do not believe Jesus either. He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Now, have you even tried to show that He didn't say/mean that? No. But you clearly don't believe that.

Quite the opposite. I believe and follow Gods' Word and Gods Spirit bares witness with my Spirit that he is my father. I do not come here speaking my words denying God's Word. So your argument here is not between you and me but perhaps someone greater than both of us whose words I share with you that you do not believe. As shown through the scriptures already Gods' promise of eternal life is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says enduring temptation the very end *James 1:12. Anything else is the faith of devils according to the scriptures *James 2:17-20; 26.

LoveGodsWord wrote: Your list of verses were shown not to support your claims because you failed to define faith and only provided scripture to do with unconditional justification which is what I agree with and why I asked you do you know the difference between unconditional justification and conditional sanctification though believing and following God's Word. All I got back was silence...

Your response here...

This is amazing! In not a good way. None of my list of verses even mentioned justification, so what on earth are you talking about.

Do you know what unconditional justification is by faith and how it differs from conditional sanctification and Christian growth through faith? What is faith if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God? If God's Word tells us to repent and obey Gods' Word (e.g. Acts of the Apostles 2:38; Acts of the Apostles 5:32) do we have faith if we do not repent from our sins? Or do we have faith by believing Gods' Word but not following what God's Word says?

.............

Your scripture verses you provided earlier referring to justification by faith in Christ...

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

....................

Do you know what justification is and the difference between justification and sanctification and what is known sin and unknown sin in the role of sanctification and growing in God's grace? This is why these scriptures do not support a teaching of once saved always saved and are simply a distraction to this discussion. There is a difference between justification by faith that is received the moment we accept Christs promise of grace and the forgiveness of our sins through his blood and death and sanctification which is an ongoing practice of faith as we learn of God's Word which that is conditional on believing and following God's Word. The "following what God's Word says" is the fruit of genuine living faith distinguished from the faith of devils which is dead (does not follow what God's Word says). Let's pray with are of the former (living faith).

Hope this is helpful.