CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?

LoveGodsWord

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Well then, you need to prove that i'm wrong about the present tense in the Greek.
You were shown you are wrong in the application of John 3:15-16 and John 3:36 and John 10:26-17 which shows that πιστεύων used is a Greek verb that is present participle active which is nominative masculine singular (V-PPA-NMS). Do you not what that means? It means that the Greek word πιστεύων being used in these scriptures is present tense active to believing in the now. Now is ongoing and continuous. There never stops being a now. If you look at parallel translations you will see that πιστεύων here is translated as "everyone who believes" (present tense active) or better yet in other translations "every one who is believing" (present tense active)

Daniel Wallace a prominent Greek scholar points out commenting on πιστεύων in John 3:

The idea seems to be both gnomic and continual: "everyone who continually believes." This is not due to the present tense only, but to the use of the present participle of πιστεύω, especially in soteriological contexts in the NT (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pp. 620-621).

Wallace further elaborates (footnote):

The aspectual force of the present ὁ πιστεύων seems to be in contrast with ὁ πιστεύσας . The aorist is used only eight times (plus two in the longer ending of Mark). The aorist is sometimes used to describe believers as such and thus has a generic force (cf. for the clearest example the v.l. at Mark 16:16; cf. also 2 Thess 1:10; Heb 4:3; perhaps John 7:39; also, negatively, of those who did not [ μή ] believe: 2 Thess 2:12; Jude 5). The present occurs six times as often (43 times), most often in soteriological contexts (cf. John 1:12; 3:15, 16, 18; 3:36; 6:35, 47, 64; 7:38; 11:25; 12:46; Acts 2:44; 10:43; 13:39; Rom 1:16; 3:22; 4:11, 24; 9:33; 10:4, 11; 1 Cor 1:21; 14:22 [bis]; Gal 3:22; Eph 1:19; 1 Thess 1:7; 2:10, 13; 1 Pet 2:6, 7; 1 John 5:1, 5, 10, 13). Thus, it seems that since the aorist participle was a live option to describe a "believer," it is unlikely that when the present was used, it was aspectually flat. The present was the tense of choice most likely because the NT writers by and large saw continual belief as a necessary condition of salvation. Along these lines, it seems significant that the promise of salvation is almost always given to ὁ πιστεύων (cf. several of the above-cited texts), almost never to ὁ πιστεύσας (apart from Mark 16:16, John 7:39 and Heb 4:3 come the closest [the present tense of πιστεύω never occurs in Hebrews]).

.............

John’s intent is also made clear from other passages in his writings apart from those mentioned at the beginning in John 3:15-16: 36; 10:26-27. For example in 2 John 1:8-9 he wrote, Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

In order to have the Father and the Son, one must abide in Christ’s teaching. In other words, one must obey what Gods' Word says, not as a one-time occurrence but as a way of life. (see John 3:36, John 8:51, John 15:10) In 1 John 3 he described this experience as ‘practicing righteousness’ when he says, “Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God.” (1 John 3:7-10)

When a person sets his heart to know and do God’s will, depending on God for the strength to carry it out, then God puts his Spirit in that believer, enabling him to do what that person could not do on his own (see Philippians 3:15; John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9). This is what it means to believe, or to practice righteousness. Saving faith means to believe and follow what God's Words says. Jesus says to us, “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” (John 15:4-6)

Based on these texts (and there are many others like them) it is apparent that this belief, or ‘practicing righteousness’, or ‘abiding in Christ’, is an ongoing experience conditional on believing and following what Gods Word says.

...............

Lets cut to the chase. Your argument is that someone can continue in known unrepentant sin or that someone can believe God's Word but not do what God's Word says and still receive everlasting life despite the scriptures shared with you in post # 406 linked showing that if we do not do what God's Word says we do not have living or saving faith therefore do not have everlasting life. Then we looked at the Hebrew and Greek application above to present tense active and the conditional application to God's Word in post # 407 linked that show that Gods' promises and Salvation are all conditional to believing and doing what Gods' Word says. Is anyone that disagrees with the scripture evidence already provided disagreeing with God's Word therefore gambling on their own salvation? You of course are free to believe as you wish. I am only sharing with you what I believe the scriptures say and teach and for me we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29. According to the scriptures if your teachings were true we would not be warned to depart the faith and return to a life of unrepentant sin and lose our salvation in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31.

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FreeGrace2

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Hello FG2 you may want to try and fix up your formatting. Your mixing my posts in with your posts a little and your post as it is formatted are a little difficult to follow when you mix in my post and yours together.
For context, I make clear what I have said that you have responded to. Maybe your server views the posts differently than mine, but I've never had anyone complain about how my posts are formatted.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No dear friend, not at all I perfectly understood all of your posts as I have read all of your posts. You did indeed hand waive my posts and the scriptures in post # 406 linked while totally ignoring the scriptures as well as the Hebrew and Greek application to conditional in post # 407 linked while not even addressing any of the questions provided in post # 424 linked. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. Let's pray we do not find ourselves closing our eyes and ears as Isaiah says in Isaiah 6:9-10. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear. I am sure not of us want to find ourselves in this position so let's examine the scriptures together in detail. We should not be afraid to come to the light of God's Word as it is only in the scriptures that we can know if we are walking the path that is straight and narrow. God's Word is a light unto our feet and a lamp to our way but Jesus says many love darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil and will not come to the light lest their deeds be reproved. We should count it a blessing if we come to the light of God's Word and be corrected as God is not willing that any one of us should perish but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and be saved.

more to come...
OK, thanks for the sermon. I'm looking for your point. And my style of responding to posts is to address points as I come to them. Once I have addressed a point, I don't repeat myself later on in the post. Maybe that's what you think I was "waving off".
 
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FreeGrace2

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It is not my claims that both God's promises and God's salvation are conditional on us believing which leads to following what God's Word says.
You've made this claim multiple times. So show me the verses that teach what you are claiming. I've already given you a long list of verses that shows that both salvaation and eternal life are by faith. And nothing more is mentioned.

Anything else according to James is the faith of devils in James 2:17-20 and to make claims that the devils will enter into God's Kingdom and have everlasting life because they believe God but do not do what God says is simply ridiculous in my view.
OK, and that IS certainly your view. But the Bible is clear about eternal security.

Why anyone would ever think they can just believe in God and not do what God's word says and receive Gods' promise of eternal life is not biblical according to the scriptures.

more to come..
How about just quoting whatever verses you think teach what you keep claiming.

Your last paragraph indicates some emotional involvement. And that's the problem. People who react to truth get emotional about it.

If you understand the meaning of grace and how it is applied, please explain.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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So, here's a list of how to have salvation and receive eternal life:

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, please count the number of verses that mention obedience or "following what God's Word says".

You may want to consider the context of some of these scriptures as some things you are saying . This has already been addressed in the very first posts to you. If we do not understand what it means to "believe" and have "faith" how can we understand what these scriptures mean? As shown earlier, saving faith (living faith) is not the faith that the devils have. It is a faith that believes Gods' Word and does what Gods' Word says. This is what makes your whole section of your post fall over here and is why Jesus says at his second coming when "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (John 7:21-23). Faith without work is dead and not a living faith but the faith of devils. It is true when we come to Jesus for the first time however that our faith is based on what we know, not what we do not know (see James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30) and we are saved and have God's promise of salvation the very moment we believe Gods' Word and nothing more is required (e.g. babes in Christ when we first believe, the thief on the cross). Some call this process justification and of course we are covered by the blood of Christ as we continue to grow in God's grace and the knowledge of Gods' Word. Some call this process sanctification which is the work of a lifetime which is different to when we first believe Gods' Word for the first time and are justified or forgiven through the blood of Christ. According to the scriptures however as we grow in the knowledge and understanding of God's grace through his Word God expects us at every stage to believe and follow Gods' Word as he reveals his truth to us. I think this is what your not understanding in cherry picking the above scriptures.

more to come..
 
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LoveGodsWord

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OK, stop. I never argued against salvation being conditional. Of course it is. It is conditioned on FAITH in Christ. See list above.

I respectfully disagree but allow me to explain why. Of course your arguing against salvation being conditional. If your arguing that we can believe in God while not doing what God's Word asks us to do than your arguing against God's salvation being conditional on believing and following Gods' Word. Do you believe that we have genuine faith by believing and doing what Gods' Word says or believing God's Word and not doing what Gods' Word says? You seem to be arguing that we can believe God but not do what God's Word says and still have everlasting life. This is arguing against conditional salvation as shown earlier in post # 407 linked that you did not respond to. Some clarification here on your part would be helpful.

more to come....
 
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LoveGodsWord

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John 10:28 sinks your boat. And v.27 is NOT a condition for receiving eternal life.
Actually no, it floats the boat. No one said John 10:27 is a condition of faith. John 10:27 is a result of faith. I think this is where your misunderstanding is. John 10:26-27 says [27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:[28], And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. How how do we get faith? "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). John 10:27 says God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) then what happens? - Yep they follow it. Your mistake here is that following what Gods' Word says is not a condition for receiving eternal life it is the fruit of faith (believing God's Word). Do you not agree with this?

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LoveGodsWord

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You need to read John 5:24.
I know it very well, but thanks for asking. How do we believe God's Word? Do we believe Gods Word by doing what God's Word says or do we believe God's Word by knowing God's Word but not doing what God's Word says?

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LoveGodsWord

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Hm. Your long sentence seems to have drifted off. You didn't finish your thought, if there was one. Yes, there is Scripture about believers apostatizing. btw, once a believer, even leaving the faith does not turn one into an unbeliever. Because of all the changes that God does when one believes, there are NO verses about God UN-doing any of those things. Kinda like having a child. Can you UN-do that? No. Once a child, always a child. I'm speaking about the relationship to the parent. So even if a believer loses faith, like Chuck Templeton, the "former believer" is STILL a child of God. That never changes. And they possess eternal life. That never changes. Why don't you believe what Jesus said?
Not really it did not drift off at all. Everything you are claiming here is not true and falls over in the next section of the post you have not yet responded to from Hebrews 6:4-8 which shows a believer can fall away and depart the faith to become an unbeliever rejecting God's Word (unbelief) in order to live a life of known unrepentant sin. Those who stay in this state of unrepentant sin according to the scriptures receive the same punishment as "unbelievers" whose end is to be burned (Hebrews 4:8; Hebrews 10:26-31). This disagrees with your claims here.

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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord wrote: Let’s look at the scriptures and see what they are saying…
HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], (6) IF THEY (believers) (7) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; (8) WHO'S END IS TO BE BURNED.
Your response here...
Do you not understand what is impossible here? It's not even about salvation. It's about being "renewed to repentance". iow, such people, who have returned to animal sacrifices, won't change their mind.
I respectfully disagree but allow me to explain why. There is nothing in the context of these scriptures that is talking about animal sacrifice. The scriptures are talking about those who were once believers in the faith who it says were once enlightened by the Word of God, tasted of the heavenly gift and received Gods' Spirit through believing and following Gods' Word (Acts of the Apostles 5:32; Acts of the Apostles 2:38), tasted of the powers of the world to come and had fallen away from the faith to known unrepentant sin whose punishment now is to be burned suffering the same fate as the wicked unbelievers *2 Peter 3:7; Hebrews 10:26-27.

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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord wrote: The following are taken from the above scriptures...
1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6
Your response here...
Yes, these are saved people. Who won't repent (change their mind).
It says no where in these scriptures that these people who were once believers who were given Gods' Spirit are saved people. Hebrews 6:8 says their end is to be burned.

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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord wrote: The above scriptures clearly show that a believer can fall away and depart the faith to become an unbeliever living a life of known unrepentant sin by disobeying and rejecting Gods' Word and losing there salvation and eternal life while receiving the punishment of the unbelieving wicked.
Your response here..
Half right and half wrong. Yes, believers can depart the faith. No, they aren't unbelievers. The Bible ONLY uses that term for those who never believed. But, go ahead and show me any verse that describes an apostate as an unbeliever. I can show you a verse that describes some believers as "worse than an unbeliever".
No. According to the scriptures anyone that does not believe and follow what God’s Word says is an unbeliever. Without faith it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6); therefore, unbelievers who are all those who do not believe and follow God’s Word cannot please God. They are still dead in their transgressions and sins (Ephesians 2:1). Unbelievers still bear the full weight of all their sin, and the “wrath of God remains on them” (John 3:36). They must be reconciled to God through Christ (Romans 5:10). Faith makes all the difference. So if we as believers fall away like those in Hebrews 6:4-8 to become “unbelievers” who no longer believe and follow Gods’ Word then we are indeed “unbelievers” according to the scriptures.

more to come. (your post was certainly a long one) :)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord wrote: Their end is to be burned (v6) which is the same punishment of the unbelieving wicked (2 Peter 3:7).
Your response here…
Let's stop trying to conflate verses, ok? There is nothing about hell in Heb 6. Study the text and figure out WHAT is being burned. v.8 says "thorns and briars". That refers to deeds. So it's NOT the person who 'gets burned', but their works.
Please let’s not read into the scripture what the scriptures do not say and teach. We are talking about the punishment that all the wicked receive here and that is the 2nd death through fire. Hebrews 6:7-8 says [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; who's end is to be burned

The example given here is comparing that farming good seed who receive God’s blessings and comparing this to that which bears thorns and briers (e.g tares) that are rejected whose end is to be burned. The context here is of course to those who have fallen away and departed the faith to live a life of known unrepentant sin, no longer believing but rejecting God’s Word. Their end is to be burned.

There is no where in Hebrews 6:4-8 or anywhere in the entire bible that says those who once believed and followed God’s Word and then fall away to depart the faith rejecting Gods’ Word to live a life of known unrepentant sin receive eternal life. Hebrews 6:8 says that their end is to be burned as does Hebrews 10:26-27 that say For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

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LoveGodsWord

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Review 1 Cor 3:14,15 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Absolutely no relevance to Hebrews 6:4-8 whatsoever. Please see post 425 linked

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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord wrote: UNCONDITIONAL SALVATION, ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, ONCE BELIEVE ALWAYS SAVED
Now if your claims are true to the above teaching you should be able to show from the scriptures that someone that was once a believer that has fallen away to live in a life of known unrepentant sin while rejecting God's Word will be saved.
Your response here…
Sure. I was about to get to that anyway regarding your inaccurate comments about a believer becoming an unbeliever, as if the believer reverts back to their former unsaved condition.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

In these 2 verses we see WHO will be condemned; those who "have not believed". Can you honestly say that a believer who departs the faith that they "have not believed"? Of course you can't, if you are honest. The red words mean "they NEVER believed". So we KNOW from Scripture that once there is belief, there is NO condemnation. Exactly what Jesus taught in John 10:28.
There is no where in any of the scriptures you provide here that says someone that was once a believer that has fallen away to live in a life of known unrepentant sin while rejecting God's Word will be saved.
For example and has been already demonstrated in Hebrews 6:4-8, if someone that believed and followed Gods’ Word yesterday and no longer believes and follows God’s Word today, then they are no longer believers therefore have not believed because they no longer believe. They stopped believing and following God's Word therefore have become “unbelievers” as shown and demonstrated in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31. So the scriptures that you provide here do not support a biblical interpretation that someone can can fall away and depart the faith, rejecting God’s Word and live a life of known unrepentant sin and still receive eternal life. This is an unbiblical false teaching of lawlessness (without law) and those who follow it will end up like those who we are warned about in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-27. Even the scriptures teach that whatsoever is not of faith (not believing or no longer believing) is sin.

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FreeGrace2

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You were shown you are wrong in the application of John 3:15-16 and John 3:36 and John 10:26-17 which shows that πιστεύων used is a Greek verb that is present participle active which is nominative masculine singular (V-PPA-NMS).
OK, just to be very clear, I was NOT SHOWN that I am wrong. I was TOLD that I am wrong. There's a huge difference here. You need to understand that.

Do you not what that means?
I know exactly what the present tense means.

It means that the Greek word πιστεύων being used in these scriptures is present tense active to believing in the now.
All believing is in the present tense.

Now is ongoing and continuous. There never stops being a now.
OK, let's quote a bit of Wallace at this point.

page 514, under "aspect", the present is internal without regard to for beginning or end, but it makes no comment as to fulfillment (or completion).

page 516, under "narrow-band presents", the action is portrayed as being in progress, or as occurring. In the indicative mood, it is portrayed as occurring in the present time (right now). That is, at the time of speaking. So it's NOT continuous action out into infinity.

page 517, under "instantaneous present", the present may be used to indicate that an action is completed at the moment of speaking. This occurs only in the indicative and is fairly common.

page 518, under "progressive present", the present is used to describe a scene in progress, esp in narrative literature. The progressive present normally involves continuous action.

Page 521, under "customary present", it is used ro signal either an ation that regularly occurs or an ongoing state. The action is usually repeated, but not without interruption. This usage is quite common.

Then, on page 522, Wallace uses John 3:16 to show an example of "believes" as meaning "continually believing", but he gives no explanation for this.

As shown on page 5:16-17, the present tense orientation is at the time or moment of speaking. So it's an action from the perspective of the speaker/writer.

And, to prove that Wallace's notion of believing for salvation must be continuing, the verb is also in the aorist tense, which is generally a point in time action, usually completed action, or past tense.

Paul's answer to the jailer involved the aorist tense for "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". If Wallace was correct about having to continue to believe in order to be saved, Paul was ignorant of correct grammar.

Further, Paul again used the aorist tense for "believe" in Romans 10:9.

This proves that one is saved the moment of saving faith, and salvation is NOT dependent upon continuing to believe.

Lets cut to the chase. Your argument is that someone can continue in known unrepentant sin or that someone can believe God's Word but not do what God's Word says and still receive everlasting life despite the scriptures shared with you in post # 406 linked showing that if we do not do what God's Word says we do not have living or saving faith therefore do not have everlasting life.
Just quote your single BEST verse that says what you keep claiming. I've already given you a long list of verses that mention ONLY FAITH/believing for salvation/eternal life. Nothing else.

Then we looked at the Hebrew and Greek application above to present tense active and the conditional application to God's Word in post # 407 linked that show that Gods' promises and Salvation are all conditional to believing and doing what Gods' Word says.
No, you have NOT given any verse that says what you claim.

Your posts are quite long. You need to deal with the aorist tense of believe as I've shown. They refute your claims about the present tense.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord wrote: Where is the scripture that teaches we can believe and not follow God's Word and still be saved? - there is none.
Your response here…
What there IS are many verses about a permanent salvation. See list above.
I respectfully disagree and have already addressed your claims in regards to the scriptures posted earlier. There was not a single scripture that you provided in the list of scriptures that you posted earlier that says anywhere that we can believe and not follow God's Word and still be saved. James says this is the dead faith of devils and Paul says whatsoever is not of faith is sin and known unrepentant sin will keep all those who practice it out of God’s kingdom. If we do not understand what it means to believe how can we understand what the scriptures mean that you posted earlier? Therefore understanding the biblical definition of faith is what you have left out that does not agree with the interpretation of the scriptures you have posted earlier. Saving faith is not the faith that the devils have. It is a faith that believes Gods' Word and does what Gods' Word says. This is what makes your whole section of your post fall over and is what Jesus says at his second coming when he says, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven." (John 7:21-23).

few, one more to come which I may need a bit more time before posting, I think...:)
 
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FreeGrace2

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You may want to consider the context of some of these scriptures as some things you are saying .
Go ahead and prove that the context in ANY of the verses I shared change the obvious wording/meaning in the verses.

I think this is what your not understanding in cherry picking the above scriptures.

more to come..
I'm not cherry picking. I have chosen many verses that directly link believing to having salvation/eternal life, without mentioning anything else.

And you have NOT shown ANY verse that says what you keep claiming.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
OK, stop. I never argued against salvation being conditional. Of course it is. It is conditioned on FAITH in Christ. See list above.
I respectfully disagree but all me to explain why. Of course your arguing against salvation being conditional
Didn't you read what I posted above? If you are not going to believe what I post, why should I bother with further discussion?

If you claim something, I won't deny it. So why do you deny what I claim?

If your arguing that we can believe in God while not doing what God's Word asks us to do than your arguing against God's salvation being conditional on believing and following Gods' Word.
Your definition is faulty. From your basic point, it appears to me that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Do you believe that we have genuine faith by believing and doing what Gods' Word says or believing God's Word and not doing what Gods' Word says?
Let's be clear. Unbelievers need to be saved. With saving faith, the person is saved. ONLY THEN are the commands given for obedience and faithfulness. To the believer. Your attempt to combine faith with works for salvation is transparent and wrong.
You seem to be arguing that we can believe God but not do what God's Word says and still have everlasting life.
Read John 5:24 and 10:28 until they sink in.

This is arguing against conditional salvation as shown earlier in post # 407 linked that you did not respond to. Some clarification here on your part would be helpful.

more to come....
Given your generally long posts, there's a point when I'm basically done addressing points.

You still need to provide a clear verse that shows that salvation requires obedience. But don't bother with John 3:36 and "apietho". It means to "not believe", though it's translated "disobey".
 
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Gary987

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Well I do want to add here @LoveGodsWord

we do what god commands means what here regarding conditions ? To believe in the son is the condition
The apostle said to Jesus. Lord. Teach us to do the work of god. He said. To believe in the one whom god has sent.

it is as anti performance of an answer from Jesus as you can get regarding our performance adhering to gods word. Jesus makes it clear belief is enough


Why is belief enough. ? Because if we truly believe and have received Christ. We will have a desire to do his will in our lives. If we fail to perform his will but are seeking in our hearts to perform it. This is credited as righteous and if we do his will we get no particular credit.

Now anyway. So the adherence to his commands comes with tremendous grace for when we utterly fail. Am I helping. Or making sense ?
 
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