CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?
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GenemZ
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Not.. become an unbeliever. Become "as" an unbeliever. One can not tell the difference between an unbeliever and a believer who constantly grieves and quenches the Spirit.
A term I have learned for that habitual carnal state is called "Reversionism." If you are habitually grieving the Spirit? And, you have a certain natural disposition in your flesh? A believer in that state will appear like an astute religious person who is not saved. Being full of Scripture, but devoid of life. Yet saved.
After all, not all unbelievers are raving sex maniacs. Are they? Unsaved religious people can keep strict kosher, too. I have seen it. And, some unbelievers are naturally very prissy and prudish people. And, believers who got saved of that ilk, who walk in habitual carnality will revert back to that way when the Spirit is unable to control a believer of that type.
Look at the Pharisees? Full of Scripture and very sexually moral. Unbelievers come in all flavors. Some unbelievers are very religious. Some very irreligious. So, believers grieving and quenching the Spirit (walking in their flesh) reveal what kind of unbeliever they would have been. That is what happened to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem that were zealous for the Law. Reversionism took them over and as a result they died when God took them home early. Taken home early because it became impossible for them to repent. Impossible after knowing what they had when first entering into salvation.....
Human pride leads to spiritual insanity. There is no way to reason with them. Its impossible to get them to repent. Just like we saw in Hebrews 6:4-6.
Now... mentally nullify what I said, by detaching oneself from what was said.
and throwing out misplaced Scripture to make us confused as to make us all forget what I had said. grace and peace......
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Once again your error is you refuse to study to show yourself approved unto God!
Hebrews 6 and 10 is not written to believers!@ And you would know that if instead of attempting to convince me it is, you took that time and studied it out in the greek!
1. Well then we agree on your "within SCripture context".
2. I also partially agree with the fact that some greek and Hebrew words do have multiple meainings and that context does determine definition (which you have ignored in Hebrews 6 and 10.
3. What you do not realize is that English translated very poorly (except in the amplified and Kittles 10 volume NT)most Greek verbs! There are a potential of 580 veb endings that all take the simple word and give it 580 different meanings!
4. That is why such passages as Hebrews 6 and 10 need to be understood into whom the book is written to( context), when the book was written (in the time when Titus broke th esiege of Jerusalem to go to Rome), and to understand exactly why the wrioter was writing th eway he did!
5. Teh verbs do not allow for one to lose their salvation, for they are not at all soteriologically based!
6. Also compared to other passages concerning teh fate of believers- these run in contradiction ot the rest of teh New Testament that says Jesus has given us eternal life and we will NEVER perish, or even in Hebrews that Jesus will never forsake us! If we could lose our salvation then Jesus forsakes us and that makes HIm a liar, and that we do perish which makes HIm lie again! It makes Paul a liar in thast our life is not hidden with Christ in goid and we are kept by Jesus until teh day of redemption, for if we can lose our salvation as a believer by sin, then you say Jesus is incapapble of keeping us until the day of redemption!
By adding the phrase "believers include Paul" you have taken Gods Word and corrupted it by your false commentary!
See I 100% believe this passage. AS WRITTEN by the author and not misunderstood by you and those who taught you this lie!
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Wrong again! You need to learn hsitory as well as how Greek verbs are wqritten!
The church in Jerusalem (which had no gentiles by the way) met in teh courts after sundown Saturday night which made it sunday! If there were gentile believers, they would have been gentile proselytes to Judiasm who converted to Christianity!
The Apostles and the church (which was 100% Jewish until Cornelius was converted) observed Sabbath Law, being Jewish, and after teh Jewish ritual swere concluded and the unbelieving Jews left, then the Apostles (until they were arrested) would speak to the believers who stayed behind.
Well to those who wish to think that obeying teh 10 commandments are soem kind of advantage as beleivers<
2 Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
The 10 commandments are a ministry of death-not life!
Galatians 3:23-25
King James Version
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The commandments were a school master that is no longer needed!
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Not really dear friend. I would say that the scriptures provided in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked disagrees with you and prove your claims here untrue
So your trying to tell us that Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 is not written to believers? Who is it written to "unbelievers"? Yet I read in my bible that "all these things are written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world have come" 1 Corinthians 10:11 and that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16. My bible tells me that the scriptures are written for "believers" not "unbelievers" as unbelievers do not believe and follow God's Word. Therefore, according to Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 as proven in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked that show context, we are warned as believers not to depart the faith and return back to a life of known unrepentant sin once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word.
I am sorry dear friend we have no agreement here. The evidence of context I have provided you in is in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked that prove context, we (believers) are warned not to "depart the faith" and return back to a life of known unrepentant sin once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word in Hebrews 10:26-39. Examples of those who where "once believers" who have departed the faith were also provided in Hebrews 6:4-8. Your response is simply to ignore these scriptures provided to you in love and say, I have ignored context to Hebrews 6 and 10 when I have provided the context in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked. My challenge to you then if you disagree with the evidence provided in the scriptures that disagree with you is to prove your claims and to prove that Hebrews 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 is not a warning to believers to depart the faith and examples of those who were once believers that have departed the faith. What should the reader believe? The Word of God or the opinions of those who deny God's Word? I will leave it to the ready to decide and let God be my judge as to what I have shared here through the scriptures are his Word and not mine as it is writte "For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure to him." John 3:34. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *Romans 3:4; Matthew 15:3-9; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.
Well that is not true at all but here is why. There are many English translations today. Most are very consistant to the Greek. What your I believe your not understanding here is that in order to understand Gods' Word we need to have God's Spirit as written in the scriptures (see John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 8:31-32; John 2:27) which are all conditional of believing and following God's Word and seek God for a knowledge of his truth through His Word which is a part of God's new covenant promise to believers *Hebrews 8:11. The Greek verbs used in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 do not change the meaning of the Greek words used within scripture and chapter context provided in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked which are warnings to believers not to depart the faith to become "unbelievers"
This is repitition here. Both within scripture and chapter context that prove that Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 are warnings to believers not to depart the faith to become unbelievers have already been provided in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked. If you disagree you are welcome to prove why you disagree. For me when I am reading your posts, all I can see is your making claims and stating opinions that I do not see supported by evidence. If you disagree please prove why you disagree so we can continue the discussion. If you are unable to do this we will have to agree to disagree and remain friends as I cannot see any evidence to the claims your making here that disagree with the scriptures and context provided in the linked posts above that prove that a believer can depart the faith to become an unbeliever.
Perhaps you can try and prove what your claiming here as I do not see any contradictions anywhere in the scriptures that have been shared here in this thread. Even the scriptures you provided earlier are very easily addressed as they are all in reference to "believers" using words like "US" or "WE" (believers). If you understand Greek you would know that these are all all in the present tense Greek participle. That means they are conditional promises to those who are believing and continuing in the faith to believe. You have not provided a single scripture that says that a believer cannot depart the faith to become an unbeliever yet it is Gods' Word alone (not mine) that says and warns believers not to depart the faith to become unbelievers and continue in sin as shown in the contexts of Hebrews 6:4-8 (examples) and Hebrews 10:26-39 (warnings) and elswhere in the bible (e.g. Hebrews 3:12; 1 Timothy 4:1). These are Gods' Word not mine. So dear friend unless you can prove your claims here we will have to agree to disagree.
Thanks for sharing your view though.
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Not really dear friend but lets show why.
None of the verbs provided in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 as stated earlier effect the meaning of the scriptures provided in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked. If you disagree your welcome to try and prove your claims here. If you cannot then what is your argument? You have none. In that case only God's Word is true according to the scriptures and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.
I also understand history just fine thankyou. If you understand history you would also know that "every city" where Moses was beiging read referred to in Acts 15 is not in reference to the Temple which is only in Jerusalem which at this time was the only place animal sacrifices and sin offerings could be done. The scriptures reference in Acts 15 is to the regional synagogues away from the temple in Jerusalem where group prayer and bible readings where held in every city every Sabbath. Your mixing up synagogues in every city with the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem which held a different purpose to those of the synagogues. At the temple in Jerusalem the gentile belevers were not allowed in the temple inner courts but were allowed in the outter courts called "the court of the gentiles" where getiles could gather. Here gentile believers could prayer and learn the Word of God. The synagogues were not like the temple they were a gathering place for prayer and reading of the old testament scriptures in every city on the Sabbath.
It is in Jerusalem for example that Jesus drove out the money changes and those who brought and sold and said "My house shall be called a house of prayer FOR ALL NATIONS but you have made it a den of robbers" *Mark 11:17. This was done in "Court of the Gentiles".
This was a location that the gentiles could come to the temple to pray, give offeirngs (temple offerings not sin offerings) that would be given to the priests on their behalf and also hear the Word of God. The gentiles however were not allowed past this section (court of the gentiles) into the inner courts of the temple unless they became Jewish proselytes.
As mentioned earlier the synagogues had a different function to the temple at Jerusalem they were places for worship, prayer and reading of the Word of God.
At the synagogues the gentiles could hear the scriptures.
For example, here we can read from the scriptures in the book of Acts how Paul speaking the Word of God in the synagogue *Acts of the Apostles 13:14:41 when he came out was implored by the Gentiles to share the Word of God with them the following Sabbath here....
Acts of the Apostles 13:42-45 "[42] So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Note in this next verse there is a distintion between the previous verse of Gentiles and proselytes in v43...
[43] Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the Word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul."
Not relavant to the Gentiles being able to hear the Word of God. See previous section.
Not relevant either to this conversation as no one believes we are saved by the works of the law. According to God's Word in the new covenant, the purpose of God's law (10 commandments) is to give us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if broken, to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven by faith. If you have no law you have no knowledge of what sin is. JAMES says if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. This is in reference to all the 10 commandments.
Hope this helps.
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When Saul/Paul enters the picture in the NT he is persecuting Christians and there is no indication that persecution ever ended.LoveGodsWord said:
Matthew 10:17
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Matthew 23:34
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mark 13:9
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Luke 21:12
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
John 16:2
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Jewish Encyclopia-Gentiles
Gentiles May Not Be Taught the Torah.
Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death" (an idiom used to express indignation). "It is like placing an obstacle before the blind" (Sanh. 59a; Ḥag. 13a). …
Resh Lakish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," ... Rabbina, who lived about 150 years after the Christians had changed the day of rest to Sunday, could not quite understand the principle underlying Resh Lakish's law, and, commenting upon it, added: "not even on Mondays [is the Gentile allowed to rest]"; intimating that the mandate given to the Noachidæ that "day and night shall not cease" ((Heb.)Lo yshabti = "have no rest ") should be taken in a literal sense (Gen. viii. 22)—probably to discourage general idleness
"The Torah outlawed the issue of a Gentile as that of a beast" (Miḳ. viii. 4, referring to Ezek. l.c.)
Johanan bar Nappaḥa … the Torah was given as a heritage to Israel, a non-Israelite deserves death if he studies it [Torah](Sanh. 59a).
Gamaliel [Was Paul’s tutor Acts 22:3] also expresses himself to the same effect, adding that the Gentiles, by their impure motive, incur the penalty of Gehenna. Eleazar of Modi'im sides with him, saying that "the Gentiles practice benevolence merely to taunt Israel."
Eliezer b. Hyrcanus is …, the mind of every non-Jew is always intent upon idolatry (Giṭ. 45b). The cattle of a heathen is unfit for sacrifices ('Ab. Zarah 23b). Explaining Prov. xiv. 34, he maintains that the non-Jews only practise charity in order to make for themselves a name (B. B. 10b; Pesiḳ. 12b; Gamaliel [Was Paul’s tutor Acts 22:3] is credited with the same opinion in B. B. 10b).
Joshua b. Hananiah, … as a rule Gentiles cling to vain things and are rejected (Prov. xxviii. 19; Gen. R. lxxxii.).
Eleazar of Modi'im, in reference to Micah iv. 5, explains that Israel, though guilty of the same sins as the Gentiles, will not enter hell, while the Gentiles will (Cant. R. ii. 1). .. On the whole, he is very bitter in his condemnations of the heathen. "They profit by their deeds of love and benevolence to slander Israel" (referring to Jer. xl. 3;B. B. 10a).
Among Akiba's disciples Tarphon is noted for his antipathy to the Judæo-Christians, whose books he would burn without regard for the name of God occurring therein, preferring the temple of idolaters to them (Shab. 116a).
Simon ben Yoḥai is preeminently the anti-Gentile teacher. In a collection of three sayings of his, beginning with the keyword (Heb.) Shob (Yer. Ḳid. 66c; Massek. Soferim xv. 10; Mek., Beshal-laḥ, 27a; Tan., Wayera, ed. Buber, 20), is found the expression, often quoted by anti-Semites, "Ṭob shebe-goyyim harog" (="The best among the Gentiles deserves to be killed").
On the basis of Hab. iii. 6, Simon b. Yohai argued that, of all the nations, Israel alone was worthy to receive the Law (Lev. R. xiii.). The Gentiles, according to him, would not observe the seven laws given to the Noachidae (Tosef., Soṭah, viii. 7; Soṭah 35b), though the Law was written on the altar (Deut. xxvi. 8) in the seventy languages. Hence, while Israel is like the patient ass, the Gentiles resemble the easy-going, selfish dog (Lev. R. xiii.; Sifre, Deut., Wezot ha-Berakah, 343).
Judah ben 'Illai recommends the daily recital of the benediction. "Blessed be Thou . . . who hast not made me a goi[gentile]" (Tosef., Ber. vii. 18: Men. 43b, sometimes ascribed to Meir; see Weiss, "Dor," ii. 137). Judah is confident that the heathen (Gentiles) will ultimately come to shame (Isa. lxvi. 5; B. M. 33b).The Gentiles took copies of the Torah, and yet did not accept it (Soṭah 35b).
Eliezer, the son of Jose the Galilean, calls the Gentiles poor "goyyim dawim," because they would not accept the Torah (Mek., Yitro. 62a), referring to Hab. iii. 6 and Ps. cxlvii. 20
Josiah holds that every idolatrous heathen is an enemy of Israel (Mek., Mishpaṭim, 99a).
Jonathan insists that eclipses are of bad augury for Gentiles only, according to Jer. x. 2 (Mek., Bo, 19b).
Simon ben Jose likens Israel to a stone, and the Gentiles to a potsherd (Isa. xxx. 14), applying the proverb: "If the stone falls on the pot, wo to the pot; if the pot falls on the stone, wo to the pot." This he offered as a consolation to persecuted Israel (Esther R. iii. 6).
Hezekiah b. Hiyya deduces from II Kings xx. 18 that he who shows hospitality to a heathen brings the penalty of exile upon his own children (Sanh. 104a).
Johanan bar Nappaḥa … lays stress on the fact that God offered the Law to all nations, who refused to accept it ('Ab. Zarah 2b); therefore while the virus of lust that the serpent injected into Eve was neutralized in Israel, the "nations of the world" still have it in their blood (Shab. 145b; Yeb. 103b; 'Ab. Zarah 22b)…. the Torah was given as a heritage to Israel, a non-Israelite deserves death if he studies it (Sanh. 59a).
Assi is the author of the injunction not to instruct the Gentile in the Torah (Ḥag. 13a).
Tanhuma …likens the nations to wolves and Israel to a lamb (Pesiḳ. R. ix. [ed. Friedmann, p.32a]).
The seven nations in the Holy Land were to be exterminated for fear they might teach the Israelite conquerors idolatry and immoral practises (Deut. vii. 1-6, xviii. 9-14, xx. 16-18);
The Gentiles were so strongly suspected of unnatural crimes that it was necessary to prohibit the stabling of a cow in their stalls ('Ab. Zarah ii. 1).
GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Matthew 23:34
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mark 13:9
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Luke 21:12
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
John 16:2
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Jewish Encyclopia-Gentiles
Gentiles May Not Be Taught the Torah.
Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death" (an idiom used to express indignation). "It is like placing an obstacle before the blind" (Sanh. 59a; Ḥag. 13a). …
Resh Lakish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," ... Rabbina, who lived about 150 years after the Christians had changed the day of rest to Sunday, could not quite understand the principle underlying Resh Lakish's law, and, commenting upon it, added: "not even on Mondays [is the Gentile allowed to rest]"; intimating that the mandate given to the Noachidæ that "day and night shall not cease" ((Heb.)Lo yshabti = "have no rest ") should be taken in a literal sense (Gen. viii. 22)—probably to discourage general idleness
"The Torah outlawed the issue of a Gentile as that of a beast" (Miḳ. viii. 4, referring to Ezek. l.c.)
Johanan bar Nappaḥa … the Torah was given as a heritage to Israel, a non-Israelite deserves death if he studies it [Torah](Sanh. 59a).
Gamaliel [Was Paul’s tutor Acts 22:3] also expresses himself to the same effect, adding that the Gentiles, by their impure motive, incur the penalty of Gehenna. Eleazar of Modi'im sides with him, saying that "the Gentiles practice benevolence merely to taunt Israel."
Eliezer b. Hyrcanus is …, the mind of every non-Jew is always intent upon idolatry (Giṭ. 45b). The cattle of a heathen is unfit for sacrifices ('Ab. Zarah 23b). Explaining Prov. xiv. 34, he maintains that the non-Jews only practise charity in order to make for themselves a name (B. B. 10b; Pesiḳ. 12b; Gamaliel [Was Paul’s tutor Acts 22:3] is credited with the same opinion in B. B. 10b).
Joshua b. Hananiah, … as a rule Gentiles cling to vain things and are rejected (Prov. xxviii. 19; Gen. R. lxxxii.).
Eleazar of Modi'im, in reference to Micah iv. 5, explains that Israel, though guilty of the same sins as the Gentiles, will not enter hell, while the Gentiles will (Cant. R. ii. 1). .. On the whole, he is very bitter in his condemnations of the heathen. "They profit by their deeds of love and benevolence to slander Israel" (referring to Jer. xl. 3;B. B. 10a).
Among Akiba's disciples Tarphon is noted for his antipathy to the Judæo-Christians, whose books he would burn without regard for the name of God occurring therein, preferring the temple of idolaters to them (Shab. 116a).
Simon ben Yoḥai is preeminently the anti-Gentile teacher. In a collection of three sayings of his, beginning with the keyword (Heb.) Shob (Yer. Ḳid. 66c; Massek. Soferim xv. 10; Mek., Beshal-laḥ, 27a; Tan., Wayera, ed. Buber, 20), is found the expression, often quoted by anti-Semites, "Ṭob shebe-goyyim harog" (="The best among the Gentiles deserves to be killed").
On the basis of Hab. iii. 6, Simon b. Yohai argued that, of all the nations, Israel alone was worthy to receive the Law (Lev. R. xiii.). The Gentiles, according to him, would not observe the seven laws given to the Noachidae (Tosef., Soṭah, viii. 7; Soṭah 35b), though the Law was written on the altar (Deut. xxvi. 8) in the seventy languages. Hence, while Israel is like the patient ass, the Gentiles resemble the easy-going, selfish dog (Lev. R. xiii.; Sifre, Deut., Wezot ha-Berakah, 343).
Judah ben 'Illai recommends the daily recital of the benediction. "Blessed be Thou . . . who hast not made me a goi[gentile]" (Tosef., Ber. vii. 18: Men. 43b, sometimes ascribed to Meir; see Weiss, "Dor," ii. 137). Judah is confident that the heathen (Gentiles) will ultimately come to shame (Isa. lxvi. 5; B. M. 33b).The Gentiles took copies of the Torah, and yet did not accept it (Soṭah 35b).
Eliezer, the son of Jose the Galilean, calls the Gentiles poor "goyyim dawim," because they would not accept the Torah (Mek., Yitro. 62a), referring to Hab. iii. 6 and Ps. cxlvii. 20
Josiah holds that every idolatrous heathen is an enemy of Israel (Mek., Mishpaṭim, 99a).
Jonathan insists that eclipses are of bad augury for Gentiles only, according to Jer. x. 2 (Mek., Bo, 19b).
Simon ben Jose likens Israel to a stone, and the Gentiles to a potsherd (Isa. xxx. 14), applying the proverb: "If the stone falls on the pot, wo to the pot; if the pot falls on the stone, wo to the pot." This he offered as a consolation to persecuted Israel (Esther R. iii. 6).
Hezekiah b. Hiyya deduces from II Kings xx. 18 that he who shows hospitality to a heathen brings the penalty of exile upon his own children (Sanh. 104a).
Johanan bar Nappaḥa … lays stress on the fact that God offered the Law to all nations, who refused to accept it ('Ab. Zarah 2b); therefore while the virus of lust that the serpent injected into Eve was neutralized in Israel, the "nations of the world" still have it in their blood (Shab. 145b; Yeb. 103b; 'Ab. Zarah 22b)…. the Torah was given as a heritage to Israel, a non-Israelite deserves death if he studies it (Sanh. 59a).
Assi is the author of the injunction not to instruct the Gentile in the Torah (Ḥag. 13a).
Tanhuma …likens the nations to wolves and Israel to a lamb (Pesiḳ. R. ix. [ed. Friedmann, p.32a]).
The seven nations in the Holy Land were to be exterminated for fear they might teach the Israelite conquerors idolatry and immoral practises (Deut. vii. 1-6, xviii. 9-14, xx. 16-18);
The Gentiles were so strongly suspected of unnatural crimes that it was necessary to prohibit the stabling of a cow in their stalls ('Ab. Zarah ii. 1).
GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
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Already looked at eveything you have posted here from the Jewish website. The context to what you have posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, if the full article is viewed is talking about the opinions of different Jewish Rabbis in regards to unconverted or unbelieving gentiles not gentile believers or gentiles wanting to learn more about God in order to follow God. The article is not talking about gentile believers in the synagogues or in reference to the temple in Jerusalem's "court of the gentiles".
Most of this article are the opinions of different Jewish Rabbi teachers after the times and events of JESUS and the Apostles showing no consensus of opinion but are general individual opinions held by Jewish Rabbis about unbelieving gentiles in general and is not a commentary of the believing gentiles in synagogues or the "court of the gentiles" in the temple at Jerusalem or to believing gentiles which the post you are quoting from refers to. So what you have posted is not relevant to the post you are quoting from. Some of these Rabbis quotes are with anti non believing gentile sentiment and others favourable.
Also nothing you have written here disagrees with the scriptures that have already been provided in the post you are quoting from in ragard to the Paul speaking the Word of God in the Synagogue for which scriptures are provided showing that the gentiles heard the Word of God being taught as demonstrated in Acts of the Apostles 13:14-45 and then asked Paul to teach them again the following Sabbath. Then there is the very words of Jesus in Mark 11:17 where JESUS drove out the money changes and the buyers and sellers saying "My house shall be called a house of prayer FOR ALL NATIONS but you have made it a den of robbers" *Mark 11:17 where the context here is also the court of the gentiles.
The above are Gods' Word not mine
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Really? Why is the context of these scriptures then to the second coming and the new heavens and the new earth?
.................
ISAIAH 66:16-23 [16], FOR BY FIRE AND BY HIS SWORD WILL THE LORD PLEAD WITH ALL FLESH: AND THE SLAIN OF THE LORD SHALL BE MANY (see 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Hebrews 10:26-27). [17], THEY THAT SANCTIFY THEMSELVES, AND PURIFY THEMSELVES IN THE GARDENS BEHIND ONE TREE IN THE MIDDLE, EATING SWINE'S FLESH, AND THE ABOMINATION, AND THE MOUSE, SHALL BE CONSUMED TOGETHER, SAID THE LORD. [18], For I know their works and their thoughts: IT SHALL COME, THAT I WILL GATHER ALL NATIONS AND TONGUES; AND THEY SHALL COME, AND SEE MY GLORY. [19], And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, THAT HAVE NOT HEARD MY FAME, NEITHER HAVE SEEN MY GLORY; AND THEY SHALL DECLARE MY GLORY AMONG THE GENTILES. [20], And they shall bring all your brothers for an offering to the LORD out of all nations on horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and on mules, and on swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, said the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. [21], AND I WILL ALSO TAKE OF THEM FOR PRIESTS AND FOR LEVITES, SAID THE LORD.
[22], FOR AS THE NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH, WHICH I WILL MAKE, SHALL REMAIN BEFORE ME, SAID THE LORD, SO SHALL YOUR SEED AND YOUR NAME REMAIN. [23], AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT FROM ONE NEW MOON TO ANOTHER, AND FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP BEFORE ME, SAID THE LORD.
Look forward to your reponse...
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Once again, you forgfet teh context of Hebrews!
All SCriptures are is given by Divine Inspiration! But not all Scriptures all equally applicable!
Show me the verse where it says that teh Bible is written only for believers!
Well James and Acts do not link to Heb. 6 and 10 except in your own thinking. No the verbs in Heb. 6 and 10 effect teh statements of Heb. 6 and 10! And when one bothers to study them out they find out these are not believers! There is no other alternative based on the language!
Red herring! The Book of Hebrews is dealing with Jews in Jerusalem and the context is the supremacy of Jesus versus the sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law. YOu seem to foget that this letter probavbly took several weeks to write, took several weeks to deliver to one place (they had no onternet of copiers at Staples back then), it was written to the Jews who were fellowshipping with the Jewish believers in and around Jerusalem! It was written at teh time when the Roman General Titus broke off teh siege of Jerusalem to retrurn to Rome to see his Father Galba crowned Cesar. This was written to warn the Jews of this:
Luke 21:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
1.1 Million Jews were killed when Titus returned and picked the siege and then conquering and destruction of Jerusalem! No Jewish Christians were killed for they went across the Jordan into Syria into the area of Pella!
Heb. 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
If you went back to the Law, you would find out the writer is not talking about losing ones salvation, but suffering physical punishment up to and including capital punishment. That was a civil and not spiritual judgment!
Teh writer is looking at the fact Jerusalem had been encompassed by armies and its destruction was nigh at hand!
But another clue as to teh who that was being written to is 33. They were companions of them that were so used (as they were ) not the believers themselves. The original language proves this!
And like the Temple- they could only hear outside of the synagogue.
This is incorrect according ot the Mishnah, Tancah, the writings of the Sopherim and Gemera! Jewish proselytes could go no further than the court of the gentiles! The sacrifices were given to a Cohanim to bring into the inner temple areas.
Which they did once Peter opened the door for the Gentiles to hear the Word. Teh first gentile convert was Cornelius who was not near the temple. Gentiles (except for the legionnaires) were almost non existent in Jerusalem at this time.
And as the Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law it is irrelavant to bring it up in a conversation involving gentile believers!
As for James- you are wrong! when Law was preceded by teh definite article (hos) it always referred to the MOsaic Law which is 613 commandments. to say it involves only the ten of death written in stone is a man made teaching!
James letter was written to Jewish Christians BTW.
Hope this helps.
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Sorry but taking passages from Hebrews and seeking to link them with other verses in other books while ignoring the immediate context (the Book of Hebrews itself) is eisegesis based on personal bias and not sound biblical exegesis.
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Well that is not true dear friend. Context has already been provided and shown in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked. If you believe it has not prove your claims. The scriptures provided in the linked posts above prove what your saying here is not true. I believe they are God's Word, not my words but it seems you do not believe them.
So your trying to tell us that Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 is not written to believers? Who is it written to "unbelievers"? Yet I read in my bible that "all these things are written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world have come" 1 Corinthians 10:11 and that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16. My bible tells me that the scriptures are written for "believers" not "unbelievers" as unbelievers do not believe and follow God's Word. Therefore, according to Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 as proven in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked that show context, we are warned as believers not to depart the faith and return back to a life of known unrepentant sin once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word. I have looked at the Greek and I believe it does not agree with you.
Deflection. The point I was making was against your claims that Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 is not written to believers. Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 is written for believers according to the scriptures while your claiming they are not written for believers. Who should I believe and follow then, you or God? *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.
Sure no problem...
1 Corinthians 10:11 "All these things are written for "our (believers)" admonition upon whom the ends of the world have come."
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are you saved through faith (in God's Word); and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever believes on him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Matthew 4:4 "Man does not live by bread alone but be every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."
Romans 14:23 "... whatsoever is not of faith is sin"
To many scriptures. Go do a topical word study looking also at the Greek and Heberw on "believe" "believing" and "faith".
The bible is written only for those who "believe it". The bible is not written for anyone who does not believe it. Those who do not believe God's Word according to the scriptures are condemned and still in their sins because they do not believe Gods' Word *Romans 14:23; John 3:16-21
Your claims here are not true but here is why. None of the verbs provided in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 as stated earlier effect the meaning of the scriptures provided in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked that show that a believer can depart the faith to become an unbeliever by rejecting God's Word and returning to a life of known unrepentant sin after they have been given a knowledge of the truth. I asked you earlier to prove your claims. All you have done here is to make claims you have not been able to prove. I guess you are not able to prove your claims so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I have never disagreed with the book of Hebrews when it was first written not been written to the Hebrews or about them and the supremacy of Jesus over the sacrificial Mosaic laws. So this is a strawman argument no one is arguing about. What I disagree with is your claims that the book of Hebrews is not the Word of God written for all believers (all christians) and that the context of both Hebrews 6:4-8 is an example and warning showing that "believers" can depart the faith and that Hebrews 10:26-39 is also a warning to believers not to return to a life of known unrepentant sin once they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word. Everything stated here are not my words but God's Word and shown word for word in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 and demonstrated in the scriptures already provided in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked.
This is only a distraction. What has the seige of Jerusalem have to do with our discussion on Hebrews 6:4-8 being an example of believer that once had the truth of God's Word and God's Spirit departing the faith and Hebrews 10:26-39 being a warning not to depart the faith once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word to return back to a life of known unrepentant sin? - Nothing!
More to come...
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The context of Hebrews 10:26-39 is demonstrated word for word proving that topic of conversation is a warning to believers not to depart the faith to become unbelievers and return back to a life of known unrepentant sin in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked.
Your claims here that v33 is evidence that Hebrews is not talking to believers is not true as it is a warning to believers not to depart the faith but lets show why by examining the context of v33?
1. For if "WE" (believers includes Paul) sin willfully after we receive a knowledge of the truth v26
2. For "WE" (believers includes Paul) know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord.
3. Context in v26 and v30 is to WE (believers) there is no change to they or them (unbelievers)
Let's look at the rest of the scriptures to v39 and see if the context changes...
[32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions; [33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used. [34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.[38], NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. [39], But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
4. Context is still to "WE" (believers) v32 call to remembrance the former days,
5. Context is still to "WE" (believers) v33 Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used
6. Context is still to "WE" (believers) v34 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward.
7. Context is still to "WE" (believers) v35 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
8. Context is still to "WE" (believers) v36 For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
9. Context is still to "WE" (believers) v37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come
10. Context is still to "WE" (believers) v38 NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
11. Context is still to "WE" (believers) v39 But WE are not of "them" who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. The "them" is in context to those who have received a knowledge of the truth and reject it to continue in sin in v26-27
................
v33 is not written to "unbelievers" the context shown above proves that the HEBREWS 10:26-39 is a WARNING to "believers" not to depart the faith once they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word. Context matters. This is only sent in love and as a help. My you receive God's correction through the scriptures provided here dear friend and be blessed.
Your repsonse here...
The point is that the scriptures show that the gentiles believers could hear the Word of God at the synagogues as proven in Acts of the Apostles 13:42-45
Your response here...
So your saying that a Jewish proselyte could only go as far as the court of the gentiles where non Jewish proselytes (Heathen unbelieving gentiles) could also go but where not allowed into the temple to offer sacrifice for sin? Can you provide some evidence of this? My understanding and (I am happy to be corrected) was that Jewish proselytes could go further then the court of the gentiles and non gentile proselytes were not able to. This is only a side issue distraction to our discussion however but I am happy to hear more about it for my own interest.
If your referring to the ceremonial "shadow laws" for remission of sins, Levitical Priesthood and earthly Sanctuary ordinances you are correct this is shown in Hebrews chapters 7-10. If you are referring to Gods' eternal law (10 commandments) *Exodus 34:38 written with the finger of God on tables of stone *Exodus 32:16; Deuteronomy 4:13; 10:4 you would be wrong but here is why. According to God's Word in the new covenant, the purpose of God's law (10 commandments) is to give us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if broken, to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven by faith. If you have no law you have no knowledge of what sin is. JAMES says if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. This is in reference to all the 10 commandments. Your mising up the shadow laws pointing to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant with God's eternal law that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken in the new covenant *Romans 3:20.
Sorry Nolidad, you are wrong here but here is why. If you want to go the Greek word argument I understand the Greek here and the Hebrew application. If you understand the Hebrew and Greek you would know that it is not the individual word meanings that determine definition it is the application of these words to context that determines word definitions. The Greek word used in James of course to the english word is νόμος; nomos which is a general word used for law and can have application to all laws but the scripture context and application is to thou shalt not kill and thou should not committ adultery so the subject matter and context is to God's royal law of loving your neighbour and God's 10 commandments *James 2:8-10.
It is the context the determines Greek and Hebrew word definitions and it is not the definition that determines the context and interpretation of scripture. Let me speak plainly with you where does it say in scripture 613 commandments? You do know that this is a Jewish concept right that disregards the old and new covenants and includes the laws for animal sacrifices right? Do you practice animal sacrifice for forgiveness of your sins? Tell me how many commandments are in God's 10 commandments? Is there 9; 10 or 613? Here are my scriptures to answer this question *Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4. Where are your scriptures?
Hope this helps.
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Well that is not true Nolidad but here is why. Exegesis was already provided letting the scriptures speak for themselves word for word from Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 in post # 200 linked and post # 220 linked that prove context is to warnings given to the believers not to depart the faith and return to sin. There is also bible study method used in support of exegesis called "topical bible study" on subject matter that is also supportive of exegesis used for further proof to support interpretation to the rest of the bible. Go google it, if you are unsure what it is and how it fits in and relates to exegesis and scripture subject matter interpretation.
Hope this helps.
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Tell you what. We need to end this until you do some historic research on the Book of Hebrews.
1. Find the Historic context of the book
2. Look at the whole book with this thought, Is it a book to encourage believers or a book that is far more evangelistic in its content?
3. Ponder Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Do you see it? The objects of the letter ministered to the saints but are not called saints anywhere in the letter! This is important!
4. Look at Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. The writer is hopeful they are saved (not saved and lost again )
5. Finally go into the original language for these two very controversial passages. Look at teh intensity of the Greek or lack thereof and you will see, that in modern terms, these are Jews who were shown and brought to an understanding of who Jesus is and what He did. They were brought to the "edge of the cliff" so to speak.
6. They were warned that to go back to the sacrificial system would bring their death and that no other sacrifice could atone for sin other than Jesus!
If you need help with how to understand teh Greek I will be glad to help.
But until then unless you study out the passages in their original language we are just going to bounce this back and forth !
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No you failed to provide any context. Talking about teh whole book and the whys and whens of the book is called context- which you didn't.
Also all we have from you is your take on teh passages in English and not in the original language which negates what you have been taught about these passages are about losing salvation!
And I know what you do! When I post multiple verses about eternal security You say they don't count for they are for believers (which you even admit these peoples are believers ) Which means you believe in conditional eternal life or probationsry etwernal life.
YOu also believe that once someone is seated in heavenly places, they can be unseated.
You also believe that once someone is born again- they can be un-born again.
YOu believe that once someone is amde a new creature- they can be brought back to the old creature.
You believe that even though the old man has been declared dead, one can resurrect their old man and kill the new man who is being conformed to the image of Jesus.
YOu do not believe that all things work for the good for believers. For if they fall into unbelief- that won't be for th eir good.
You do not believe that Jesus has given believers eternal life and they shall never persih. YOu (and not Gods Word) say that it is only a probationsry life!
YOu believe salvation which is a gift, can be taken back and that salvation is not by faith through grace, but has to be maintained by the person.
YOu do not believe that He who has begun a good work in you SHALL perform until that day!
You do nto believe that saints are sealed until the day of redemption.
You do not believe that saints are dead and their life is hidden with Christ and when He appears we SHALL appear with HIm.
You do not believe that no one can pluck a saint out of Jesus or the Fathers hands!
All this because you believe that Heb. 6 and 10 say you can lose you rsalvation.
BTW all these staements are directly form Scripture verses and not my opinion.
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In some cases where a Greek word is used for multiple definitions. Otherwise it is the grammar and verb voiced, moods, tenses etc. and endings that determine what the verb means!
God gave Moses all of the 613 Commandments written down in Leviticus and Deuteronomy! They make up what is called the Torah or THE LAW! The ten written in stone which minister death are simply part of teh 613 God issued to Moses. It is right there in your Bible!
Show me in the bible where we see the Words "Ten Commandments"? We have made that distinction because they are the ten written in stone which minister death and not life! And many moder people have been erroneously taught that in the New TEstament the term "The Law can mean the 613 or just the ten- not based on context but based on their own being taught wrongly!
Get back to me when you study out the original language and see that the teachings on Heb. 6 and 10 are erroneous! I know< I believed just as you did until I started studying to sho wmyself approved!
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Sorry Nolidad but I disagree with what you have written above but here is why. I believe the mistake your making here is viewing the bible only as a historic book and not the Word of God written to and for God's people all through time as proven in the scripture context demonstrated in post # 200; post # 220 linked and post # 233 linked. According to the scriptures and God's Word (not mine), All scripture is given by inspiration of God and we (God's people) are to live by every words of it as all scripture is written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world have come. I am sorry but I understand the Greek very well thank you and have already shown it does not agree with you.
Hope this helps.
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Well that is not true Nolidad as the context you have left out is demonstrated and provided in post # 200; post # 220 linked and post # 233 linked. If you disagree with what is written here prove it. If you cannot then it is best for us to agree to disagree dear friend and let others decide. The linked posts above demonstrate context of the scriptures which are God's Word not mine. You deny this with your words that are not God's word but yours. You are welcome to prove your claims if you cannot I believe your argument is with God not me as they are God's Word not mine and we will have to agree to disagree and let others decide for themselves.
Well that is not true Nolidad. As demonstrated in post # 200; post # 220 linked and post # 233 linked, exegesis is provided letting the scriptures interpret themselves in contrext to what is written in the scriptures. All we have as a response to the above linked posts are your words over God's without proving anything you are claiming. If you disagree with the linked posts provided above that demonstrate exegesis you are welcome to prove your claims if you cannot all you have provied is an opinion not based on scripture which are your words against God's so your argument is with God not me. For me, I believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. You are free to believe as you wish as we all answer only to God come judgement day according to the scriptures *John 12:47-48. I only wish you well and it is why I share God's Word with you which the scriptures teach are profitable for correction and instruction in righteousness *2 Timothy 3:16.
As demonstrated in earlier posts to you. The context of each of the scriptures you have provided are to "US" and "WE" and to the present tense participle in the Greek to "BELIEVE", "BELIEVING" and "FAITH". These promises are also "conditional" to "IF" to continuing to "believe" and not "departing the faith" or "drawing back" to a life of known unrepentant sin. Gods' salvation is "conditional" on believing and following God's Word in the present tense participle. I have provided a detailed scripture response here if your interested linked.
Sorry Nolidad your claims in regard to myself here have no truth in them. I do indeed disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures, but believe I have demonstrated why I disagree with you in love and from scripture. You are free to receive God's correction from the scriptures or not. You are free to believe as you wish. We will have to agree to disagree. I respect your right to your opinion but it is not mine. For me I believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it according to the teachings of JESUS in Matthew 15:3-9 and Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29.
Thank you for sharing your view though.
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Your response here...
Sorry Nolidad this is not true. Exegesis of the Greek and Hebrew is always demonstrated by examining the within scripture context and within chapter contexts to subject matter that determines Greek and Hebrew language definitions. Context is always king when it comes to Greek or Hebrew word meanings. I believe what you have posted above is an example of looking at a leaf but not seeing the forest. This is not how exegesis works in interpretation of the scriptures. We need to look at both the Greek and Hebrew words (the leaf) and see how they connect to the scripture (the tree) and view the scripture in connection to the chapter (the forest).
Your response here...
You did not answer my questions in this section of the post you are quoting from dear friend. You may want to do a google search on the meaning of Torah as it is the first 5 books of the bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). Let me speak plainly with you where does it say in scripture 613 commandments? You do know that this is a Jewish concept right that disregards the old and new covenants and includes the laws for animal sacrifices right? Do you practice animal sacrifice for forgiveness of your sins? Tell me how many commandments are in God's 10 commandments? Is there 9; 10 or 613? Here are my scriptures to answer this question *Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4. Where are your scriptures?
The scripture references were already provided for you in the post you are quoting from. Perhaps you did not see them. Here let me provide the full scriptures references again here...
EXODUS 34:28, [28] And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote on the tables the words of the covenant, the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
DEUTERONOMY 4:13 [13], And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them on two tables of stone.
DEUTERONOMY 10:4-5 [4] And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the TEN COMMANDMENTS, which the LORD spoke to you in the mount out of the middle of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them to me. [5], And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.
Your mixing up the ceremonial "shadow laws" for remission of sins, Levitical Priesthood and earthly Sanctuary ordinances with Gods' eternal law (10 commandments) *Exodus 34:38 written with the finger of God on tables of stone *Exodus 32:16; Deuteronomy 4:13; 10:4 that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken in the new covenant. According to God's Word in the new covenant, the purpose of God's law (10 commandments) is to give us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if broken, to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven by faith. If you have no law you have no knowledge of what sin is. JAMES says if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. This is in reference to all the 10 commandments. Your mixing up the shadow laws of the old covenant pointing to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant with God's eternal law that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken in the new covenant *Romans 3:20.
Hope this helps.
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