CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?

[GenemZ]

No one said all knowlege was revealed to those who are following false teachings. My point earlier was that if we believe we are honestly following God's Word and unknowingly following false teachings then God does not hold us accountable until we are given a knowledge of the truth and reject it *JAMES 4:17; ACTS OF THE APOTLES 17:30-31; HEBREWS 10:26.

True. What do you do with the following?

About noon the following day as they were on their journey
and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.
He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and
while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.
He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet
being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all
kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds.

Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten
anything impure or unclean.”

The voice spoke to him
a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God
has made clean.” Act 10:9-15 (clean means - made kosher)​

Followed up by....

Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions
of conscience, for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”


If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat
whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience."
1 Cor 10:25-27
​

We are no longer to eat like Jews did under the theocracy the Lord established for Israel.

Do you believe that? The SDA's I have known will not agree. Yet, as you said?

My point earlier was that if we believe we are honestly following God's Word and unknowingly following false teachings then God does not hold us accountable until we are given a knowledge of the truth and reject it *JAMES 4:17; ACTS OF THE APOTLES 17:30-31; HEBREWS 10:26.

God does not hold is accountable until when?

Its just another day in paradise lost. Say one thing, and so do another.

 

[GenemZ]

JESUS and the apostles and earlier Church all kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath according to the scriptures in the days of JESUS and after the death of JESUS. All through time to this very present day God's church as always kept God's 4th commandment according to the scriptures. For example...

As far as Jesus teaching Jews? Of course he taught being under the Law of Moses. He was teaching as a Rabbi!

To whom did Rabbi Jesus teach? Jews! Of course, he would teach about the sabbath. For, it was still being the age of Israel! The church age had not yet begun.

As far as the early days of the church age? What the apostles continued doing? They did in ignorance. For there was muchnew truths yet to be made known!


"Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God
which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery
which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now
has been revealed to His saints." - Col 1:25-26

The Jews could not have know any of the new freedoms to be found in the risen Christ before the Church age began. When Jesus taught them, he taught Law as it should be taught.. That is why they remained (as they should have at that time before the Cross) under the Law of Moses.

When the Church age suddenly burst on the scene? Without any new teaching yet made known? They simply carried on living as a Jew would. It would be expected until finally the Mystery doctrine of the Church became unveiled.

The Mystery doctrine that had been hidden up to that point when it became a revelation from God. A revelation that God chose to reveal through Paul.

You mean to tell me that what I just said is beyond your comprehension? That you still think you are to live as a Jew did before Jesus went to the Cross?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

As far as Jesus teaching Jews? Of course he taught being under the Law of Moses. He was teaching as a Rabbi!

To whom did Rabbi Jesus teach? Jews! Of course, he would teach about the sabbath. For, it was still being the age of Israel! The church age had not yet begun.

As far as the early days of the church age? What the apostles continued doing? They did in ignorance. For there was muchnew truths yet to be made known!


"Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God
which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery
which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now
has been revealed to His saints." - Col 1:25-26

The Jews could not have know any of the new freedoms to be found in the risen Christ before the Church age began. When Jesus taught them, he taught Law as it should be taught.. That is why they remained (as they should have at that time before the Cross) under the Law of Moses.

When the Church age suddenly burst on the scene? Without any new teaching yet made known? They simply carried on living as a Jew would. It would be expected until finally the Mystery doctrine of the Church became unveiled.

The Mystery doctrine that had been hidden up to that point when it became a revelation from God. A revelation that God chose to reveal through Paul.

You mean to tell me that what I just said is beyond your comprehension? That you still think you are to live as a Jew did before Jesus went to the Cross?

Not really as posted earlier Gods people all through time since JESUS and the Apostles in the lifetime of JESUS and after His death have all kept God's 4th commandment unbroken to this very present day (scriptures already provided in the post you are quoting from. Happy to post the historical references just let me know). Even JESUS says in his own words that the Sabbath was made for all mankind in MARK 2:27 and he is the Lord of it in MARK 2:28. There was no Jew when the Sabbath was created for mankind at creation *GENESIS 2:1-3.

Blessings...

 

[GenemZ]

Not really as posted earlier Gods people all through time since JESUS and the Apostles in the lifetime of JESUS and after His death have all kept God's 4th commandment unbroken to this very present day (scriptures already provided in the post you are quoting from. Happy to post the historical references just let me know). Even JESUS says in his own words that the Sabbath was made for all mankind in MARK 2:27 and he is the Lord of it in MARK 2:28. There was no Jew when the Sabbath was created for mankind at creation *GENESIS 2:1-3.

Blessings...

Jesus was correct. The poor will always be with us..

 

[Der Alte]

True. What do you do with the following?

About noon the following day as they were on their journey
and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.
He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and
while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.
He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet
being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all
kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds.
Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten
anything impure or unclean.”
The voice spoke to him
a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God
has made clean.” Act 10:9-15 (clean means - made kosher)​

Followed up by....

Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions
of conscience, for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”
If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat
whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience."
1 Cor 10:25-27​

We are no longer to eat like Jews did under the theocracy the Lord established for Israel.
Do you believe that? The SDA's I have known will not agree. Yet, as you said?
God does not hold is accountable until when?
Its just another day in paradise lost. Say one thing, and so do another.

Here is how the early church understood Acts 9:10:9-15

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor. [Paedagogus.] Book II.
Chap. I. -Peter abstained from swine; “but a trance fell on him,” as is written in the Acts of the Apostles, “and he saw heaven opened, and a vessel let down on the earth by the four corners, and all the four-footed beasts and creeping things of the earth and the fowls of heaven in it; and there came a voice to him, Rise, and slay, and eat. And Peter said, Not so, Lord, for I have never eaten what is common or unclean. And the voice came again to him the second time, What God hath cleansed, call not thou common.” (Act_10:10-15) The use of them is accordingly indifferent to us. “For not what entereth into the mouth defileth the man,” (Mat_15:11) but the vain opinion respecting uncleanness. For God, when He created man, said, “All things shall be to you for meat.” (Gen_9:2, Gen_9:3) “And herbs, with love, are better than a calf with fraud.” (Pro_15:17)
Origen Against Celsus. Book VChap. XLIX.
But neither do the Jews pride themselves upon abstaining from swine’s flesh, as if it were some great thing; but upon their having ascertained the nature of clean and unclean animals, and the cause of the distinction, and of swine being classed among the unclean. And these distinctions were signs of certain things until the advent of Jesus; after whose coming it was said to His disciple, who did not yet comprehend the doctrine concerning these matters, but who said, “Nothing that is common or unclean hath entered into my mouth,” (cf. Act_10:14) “What God hath cleansed, call not thou common.” It therefore in no way affects either the Jews or us that the Egyptian priests abstain not only from the flesh of swine, but also from that of goats, and sheep, and oxen, and fish. But since it is not that “which entereth into the mouth that defiles a man,” and since “meat does not commend us to God,” we do not set great store on refraining from eating, nor yet are we induced to eat from a gluttonous appetite.
Chap. XXIX.
But it is to be observed that the Jews, who claim for themselves a correct understanding of the law of Moses, carefully restrict their food to such things as are accounted clean, and abstain from those that are unclean. They also do not use in their food the blood of an animal nor the flesh of an animal torn by wild beasts, and some other things which it would take too long for us at present to detail. But Jesus, wishing to lead all men by His teaching to the pure worship and service of God, and anxious not to throw any hindrance in the way of many who might be benefited by Christianity, through the imposition of a burdensome code of rules in regard to food, has laid it down, that “not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth; for whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught. But those things which proceed out of the mouth are evil thoughts when spoken, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.” (Mat_15:11, Mat_15:17-19) Paul also says, “Meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.” (1Co_8:8) Wherefore, as there is some obscurity about this matter, without some explanation is given, it seemed good to the apostles of Jesus and the elders assembled together at Antioch,10 and also, as they themselves say, to the Holy Spirit, to write a letter to the Gentile believers, forbidding them to partake of those things from which alone they say it is necessary to abstain, namely, “things offered to idols, things strangled, and blood.”11
Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew. Book XI.
12. Things Clean and Unclean According to the Law and the Gospel.
“And He called to Him the multitude and said unto them, Hear and understand,” etc. (Mat_15:10) We are clearly taught in these words by the Saviour that, when we read in Leviticus and Deuteronomy the precepts about meat clean and unclean, for the transgression of which we are accused by the material Jews and by the Ebionites who differ little from them, we are not to think that the scope of the Scripture is found in any superficial understanding of them. For if “not that which entereth into the mouth defileth the man, but that which proceedeth out of the mouth,” (Mat_15:11) and especially when, according to Mark, the Saviour said these things “making all meats clean,” (Mar_7:19) manifestly we are not defiled when we eat those things which the Jews who desire to be in bondage to the letter of the law declare to be unclean, but we are then defiled when, whereas our lips ought to be bound with perception and we ought “to make for them what we call a balance and weight,” (Ecclesiasticus 28:25) we speak offhand and discuss matters we ought not, from which there comes to us the spring of sins.​

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Here is how the early church understood Acts 9:10:9-15

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor. [Paedagogus.] Book II.
Chap. I. -Peter abstained from swine; “but a trance fell on him,” as is written in the Acts of the Apostles, “and he saw heaven opened, and a vessel let down on the earth by the four corners, and all the four-footed beasts and creeping things of the earth and the fowls of heaven in it; and there came a voice to him, Rise, and slay, and eat. And Peter said, Not so, Lord, for I have never eaten what is common or unclean. And the voice came again to him the second time, What God hath cleansed, call not thou common.” (Act_10:10-15) The use of them is accordingly indifferent to us. “For not what entereth into the mouth defileth the man,” (Mat_15:11) but the vain opinion respecting uncleanness. For God, when He created man, said, “All things shall be to you for meat.” (Gen_9:2, Gen_9:3) “And herbs, with love, are better than a calf with fraud.” (Pro_15:17)
Origen Against Celsus. Book VChap. XLIX.
But neither do the Jews pride themselves upon abstaining from swine’s flesh, as if it were some great thing; but upon their having ascertained the nature of clean and unclean animals, and the cause of the distinction, and of swine being classed among the unclean. And these distinctions were signs of certain things until the advent of Jesus; after whose coming it was said to His disciple, who did not yet comprehend the doctrine concerning these matters, but who said, “Nothing that is common or unclean hath entered into my mouth,” (cf. Act_10:14) “What God hath cleansed, call not thou common.” It therefore in no way affects either the Jews or us that the Egyptian priests abstain not only from the flesh of swine, but also from that of goats, and sheep, and oxen, and fish. But since it is not that “which entereth into the mouth that defiles a man,” and since “meat does not commend us to God,” we do not set great store on refraining from eating, nor yet are we induced to eat from a gluttonous appetite.
Chap. XXIX.
But it is to be observed that the Jews, who claim for themselves a correct understanding of the law of Moses, carefully restrict their food to such things as are accounted clean, and abstain from those that are unclean. They also do not use in their food the blood of an animal nor the flesh of an animal torn by wild beasts, and some other things which it would take too long for us at present to detail. But Jesus, wishing to lead all men by His teaching to the pure worship and service of God, and anxious not to throw any hindrance in the way of many who might be benefited by Christianity, through the imposition of a burdensome code of rules in regard to food, has laid it down, that “not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth; for whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught. But those things which proceed out of the mouth are evil thoughts when spoken, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.” (Mat_15:11, Mat_15:17-19) Paul also says, “Meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.” (1Co_8:8) Wherefore, as there is some obscurity about this matter, without some explanation is given, it seemed good to the apostles of Jesus and the elders assembled together at Antioch,10 and also, as they themselves say, to the Holy Spirit, to write a letter to the Gentile believers, forbidding them to partake of those things from which alone they say it is necessary to abstain, namely, “things offered to idols, things strangled, and blood.”11
Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew. Book XI.
12. Things Clean and Unclean According to the Law and the Gospel.
“And He called to Him the multitude and said unto them, Hear and understand,” etc. (Mat_15:10) We are clearly taught in these words by the Saviour that, when we read in Leviticus and Deuteronomy the precepts about meat clean and unclean, for the transgression of which we are accused by the material Jews and by the Ebionites who differ little from them, we are not to think that the scope of the Scripture is found in any superficial understanding of them. For if “not that which entereth into the mouth defileth the man, but that which proceedeth out of the mouth,” (Mat_15:11) and especially when, according to Mark, the Saviour said these things “making all meats clean,” (Mar_7:19) manifestly we are not defiled when we eat those things which the Jews who desire to be in bondage to the letter of the law declare to be unclean, but we are then defiled when, whereas our lips ought to be bound with perception and we ought “to make for them what we call a balance and weight,” (Ecclesiasticus 28:25) we speak offhand and discuss matters we ought not, from which there comes to us the spring of sins.​

For me all that has been provided in this post is a list of peoples opinions of scripture outside of the bible. I believe, when scripture context is added these scriptures provided in this post tell a different story. Please feel free to start another thread and send me a link if you want to discuss them. If we could stay on topic here that would be great.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

True. What do you do with the following?

About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.He became hungry and wanted something to eat, andwhile the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” Act 10:9-15 (clean means - made kosher)

We do nothing with these scriptures, except to believe them in context to how they are written. When context is applied the scriptures are a vision about the Gentiles. There is no reference in Acts 10:9-15 stating that all unclean foods outlined by God in the old testament laws are now clean.

ACTS 10:11-14 [11] And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: [12] Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. [13] And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. [14] BUT PETER SAID, NOT SO, LORD; FOR I HAVE NEVER EATEN ANY THING THAT IS COMMON OR UNCLEAN.

Peter refused to eat the unclean thing even after the risen Christ. Let's add in the context and the meaning of the Peter's vision...

ACTS 10:28 [28] And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but GOD HATH SHEWED ME THAT I SHOULD NOT CALL ANY MAN COMMON OR UNCLEAN.

Verse 28 explains the great sheet. NO MAN is now unclean. The Jews use to think that keeping company with gentiles was unclean. This was one of the reasons Peter separated himself from eating with the gentiles when the Jewish believers came to visit Paul and Barnabas.

Followed up by.... Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.” If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience."1 Cor 10:25-27

Once again context matters. The context here is about eating food sacrificed to idols. It not saying we are not free to eat foods God has declared to be unclean for eating in Leviticus.

Let's look at all the context here...

1 Corinthians 10:19-28. What then do I say? That an idol is anything? Or, that an idol’s sacrifice is anything? No. 20. But that what the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God. And I would not that you should be associates of demons. 21. You cannot drink the cup of our God and the cup of demons; and you cannot be partakers at the table of our Lord, and at the table of demons. 22. Or, would we provoke our Lord jealousy? Are we stronger than he? 23. Everything is in my power; but everything is not profitable. Everything is in my power; but everything does not build up.

24. Let no one seek his own things, but also the things of his fellow-man. 25. Whatever is sold in the flesh-market, you eat, without an inquiry on account of conscience: 26. For the earth is the Lords, in its fullness. 27. And if one of the gentiles invite you, and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you, without an inquiry on account of conscience.

Note the context here is to food sacrificed to idols not clean or uncleans foods.

28. But if any one will say to you, This meat is derived from a sacrifice; don't eat it, for the sake of him who told you, and for conscience's sake. 29. The conscience I speak of is not your own, but his who told you. But why is my freedom judged of, by the conscience of others? 30. If I by grace partake, why am I reproached for that for which I give thanks? 31. If you therefore eat, or if you drink, or if you do any thing, do all things for the glory of God. 32. You be without offense to the Jews and to the Gentiles, and to the assembly of God: 33. Even as I also, in everything, please every man; and do not seek what is profitable to me, but what is profitable to many; that they may live.

Once again the chapter context of 1 Corinthians 10 shows here that it is talking about food offered to idols. It is not talking about or saying anywhere in this chapter that we are now free to eat foods that God has said in his dietry laws in Leviticus we are not to eat and that are unclean for eating.

We are no longer to eat like Jews did under the theocracy the Lord established for Israel. Do you believe that? The SDA's I have known will not agree. Yet, as you said?

I believe we must believe and follow God's Word over the teachings and traditions of men that deny the Word of God. That is what I believe. Do you believe this dear friend?

God does not hold is accountable until when? Its just another day in paradise lost. Say one thing, and so do another.

Just as the scriptures said that were posted earlier. We are all held accountable for sin when God gives us a knowledge of the truth of his Word but we choose to reject God's Word in order to continue practicing sin (please read these scriptures; James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27)

Happy to discuss God's dietry laws further if you like in another thread. Just send me the link. If we can keep this thread on topic though it would be helpful.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[GenemZ]

For me all that has been provided in this post is a list of peoples opinions of scripture outside of the bible. I believe, when scripture context is added these scriptures provided in this post tell a different story. Please feel free to start another thread and send me a link if you want to discuss them. If we could stay on topic here that would be great.

You are not being honest with what the Bible tells us. Such as yourself remains a confounding mystery to me. Why the need for such defiance? Can't you just say?

..... "Yes. the Bible tells us I can eat such foods. But, for myself. I simply prefer not to."

That, at least, would be an honest answer that would be acceptable. For the Bible does not state that we must eat all foods permitted.

 

[GenemZ]

Happy to discuss God's dietry laws further if you like in another thread. Just send me the link. If we can keep this thread on topic though it would be helpful..

I was brought up Jewish.
I don't need you to teach me anything in that regard.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are not being honest with what the Bible tells us. Such as yourself remains a confounding mystery to me. Why the need for such defiance? Can't you just say?

..... "Yes. the Bible tells us I can eat such foods. But, for myself. I simply prefer not to."

That, at least, would be an honest answer that would be acceptable. For the Bible does not state that we must eat all foods permitted.

Actually dear friend I am being very honest. You were provided the scripture context you left out that disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures you provided. The context provided was God's Word not mine. There is no scripture that says we are now free to eat unclean foods that God has said we should not eat. Don't you think that those who were eating bats are a good example today of why we should not eat unclean foods (COVID-19)? For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. Jesus says those who follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are not following God *Matthew 15:3-9. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. As the scriptures teach we all answer to God come judgement day for the word of God we accept or reject in JOHN 12:47-48

 

[GenemZ]

Actually dear friend I am being very honest. You were provided the scripture context you left out that disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures you provided. The context provided was God's Word not mine. There is no scripture that says we are now free to eat unclean foods that God has said we should not eat.

After God says to not call unclean what he has made clean? Acts 10:15

You are giving examples of food gone bad. We can not eat bad beef. But, we can eat beef.

Just because we can eat all foods, does not mean we can eat spoiled milk, nor food that is shown to be contaminated.

The word"clean" was not speaking about the absence of germs like we think of today. There was no concept of germs back then. It pertained to one's cleanliness before God. As it was under the Law, a person eating perfectly healthy clams was seen as being unclean before God.

We tend to conflate the knowledge we have today with the meaning of words used and understood differently back then.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

After God says to not call unclean what he has made clean? Acts 10:15

You are giving examples of food gone bad. We can not eat bad beef. But, we can eat beef.

Just because we can eat all foods, does not mean we can eat spoiled milk, nor food that is shown to be contaminated.

The word"clean" was not speaking about the absence of germs like we think of today. There was no concept of germs back then. It pertained to one's cleanliness before God. As it was under the Law, a person eating perfectly healthy clams was seen as being unclean before God.

We tend to conflate the knowledge we have today with the meaning of words used and understood differently back then.

I did no such thing. I gave an axample of an unclean food recorded in Leviticus (bats) and those eating them being responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic as an example of why God commands us not to eat unclean foods. Unclean (טמא; ṭâmê') animals are animals that are defiled and polluted and not safe to eat because they are defiled and polluted. Bats are one of these animals that are unclean, polluted and defiled and not safe to eat according to Leviticus. Many unclean animals are full of disease that will impack on human health. As posted earlier, the context to Acts 10:15 and Peters dream is in reference to gentiles. There is a reason why God made foods that are clean to eat and foods that are unclean to eat. What do you think those reasons are?

 

[GenemZ]

I did no such thing. I gave an axample of an unclean food recorded in Leviticus (bats) and those eating them being responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic as an example of why God commands us not to eat unclean foods. Unclean (טמא; ṭâmê') animals are animals that are defiled and polluted and not safe to eat because they are defiled and polluted. Bats are one of these animals that are unclean, polluted and defiled and not safe to eat according to Leviticus. Many unclean animals are full of disease that will impack on human health. As posted earlier, the context to Acts 10:15 and Peters dream is in reference to gentiles. There is a reason why God made foods that are clean to eat and foods that are unclean to eat. What do you think those reasons are?

Any infected animal is bad to eat. That includes any of the OT clean animals that today we find are infected. Bats are not a big draw in the food market these days. But delicious things like bacon and clams, are.

God knew we would gain the knowledge to deal with your concerns with germs. Its why we have meat inspectors. .

I will try again. And, again. And, again. Because it is the truth! I know you can read...

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions
of conscience." 1 Cor 10:25​

The Romans adored pork. Paul and the Corinthians were not concerned about kosher at that point. The problem the Christian Corinthians were having with their conscious was that the best cuts of meat to be found in the shambles (meat market) were from animals sacrificed in the many pagan temples to be found in Corinth. The very best animals were used for their sacrifices.....

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience... "​

Pork was very popular in Rome.

You wish to deny the obvious. And, resort to citing facts about potential problems known with certain foods. As long as the U.S. Department of Agriculture inspector testing shows its free of disease?... its a good to go.

On the other hand.. If the inspector found any of the OT category, clean meats to be infected? Would you eat it? According to your logic you must.

... ..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Any infected animal is bad to eat. That includes any of the OT clean animals that today we find are infected. Bats are not a big draw in the food market these days. But delicious things like bacon and clams, are.

God knew we would gain the knowledge to deal with your concerns with germs. Its why we have meat inspectors. .

I will try again. And, again. And, again. Because it is the truth! I know you can read...

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions
of conscience." 1 Cor 10:25​

The Romans adored pork. Paul and the Corinthians were not concerned about kosher at that point. The problem the Christian Corinthians were having with their conscious was that the best cuts of meat to be found in the shambles (meat market) were from animals sacrificed in the many pagan temples to be found in Corinth. The very best animals were used for their sacrifices.....

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience... "​

Pork was very popular in Rome.

You wish to deny the obvious. And, resort to citing facts about potential problems known with certain foods. As long as the U.S. Department of Agriculture inspector testing shows its free of disease?... its a good to go.

On the other hand.. If the inspector found any of the OT category, clean meats to be infected? Would you eat it? According to your logic you must.

... ..

Go do some reseach many unclean animals are naturally infected with diseases that clean animal aren't. Your just repeating yourself now. We are told not to eat unclean meats in God's Word. There is a reason for that such as COVID-19

 

[GenemZ]

Go do some reseach many unclean animals are naturally infected with diseases that clean animal aren't. Your just repeating yourself now. We are told not to eat unclean meats in God's Word. There is a reason for that such as COVID-19

So you would have burned Paul at the stake.

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions
of conscience." 1 Cor 10:25 - The Romans adored pork!


Could they do that testing back when the Bible was written? No... They did not have the medical know how.

God knew there would come a time when men would be able to research and know when a meat is infected, or not. We are not living in the uninformed world that once was. Now some choose to be uninformed.

If you live where there are health inspections and meats are shown free of any infection? Now you can eat anything cleared. Just like once a Gentile was shown to be regenerate, a Jewish believer could now be in full fellowship. Where as, before? No Jews were free to associate with Gentiles. There is an analogy there.

If they find salmonella in lettuce today. Yet, its listed as a clean food? Eat it then! (your mis-reasoning works both ways)

God knows how man's understanding and knowledge would increase. He also knows how some will be weak in faith.

 

[nolidad]

No one said all knowlege was revealed to those who are following false teachings. My point earlier was that if we believe we are honestly following God's Word and unknowingly following false teachings then God does not hold us accountable until we are given a knowledge of the truth and reject it *JAMES 4:17; ACTS OF THE APOTLES 17:30-31; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

On thios we agree!

I believe what your not understanding here is that there is both within scripture context and surrounding scripture contexts. Both of these are important in regards to interpretation. You have been provided both the "within scripture context" and the "surrounding scripture contexts" in both HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39. The "within scripture context and surrounding scripture contexts" from the same book of Hebrews proves that a "beleiver" can depart the faith and fall away to become an "unbeliever" by rejecting and not following God's Word and falling back into known unrepentant sin. The within scripure and chapter contexts have been demonstrated in post # 169 linked.

Well I don't know what you mean by "within SCripture context" but surrounding , I assume you mean the chapter and book it is written in!

Now if you would only do a word study in the language the book was written in, you would find out that the author is not talking to believers at all but to those who may have professed to believe or were known to be "on the edge" as we say today of getting saved!

You should look at the context! The context is the Supremacy of Jesus over the Old system!

JESUS and the apostles and earlier Church all kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath according to the scriptures in the days of JESUS and after the death of JESUS. All through time to this very present day God's church as always kept God's 4th commandment according to the scriptures. For example...

Well the Jewish believers may have but eh gentile believers certainly did not! We meet on sundays for the most part which is the first days of the week and not the Sabbath! The church doesn't get to change the Sabbath day because it feels like it!

5. Jesus taught that anyone who breaks God's Commandments and teaches others to do so will not enter God's Kingdom? (Matt 5:19)

6. Jesus taught that not a jot or tittle will pass from God's LAW until heaven and earth pass away? (Matthew 5:18)

God gave Moses 613 commandments! Which of those are you breaking?????

god also said that teh law was a school master that believer no longer need! God has also taught that of the 613 commandments he gave that Jesus called teh Law , the ten that are written in stone are a ministry fo death (not life).

James wrote that if you break any of the 613 commandments you have broken them all!

 

[GenemZ]

Go do some reseach many unclean animals are naturally infected with diseases that clean animal aren't. Your just repeating yourself now. We are told not to eat unclean meats in God's Word. There is a reason for that such as COVID-19

Tell us then...

What did Paul mean when he gave the command to the Corinthians concerning the Roman meat market? ...

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions
of conscience." 1 Cor 10:25​

I want to see some honesty. Not swerving to the left, or right.

They definitely sold non-kosher meats in that meat market. It was a Roman market place..


What did Paul mean?

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions
of conscience." 1 Cor 10:25
​

Why should that be said if they all were to know that only kosher was acceptable?

​

Are we men, or arguing children? Honesty is needed.

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully
to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body." Eph 4:25

....are you willing to be honest about this?

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions
of conscience." 1 Cor 10:25
​

I am not trying to shame you. I am trying to get you to stop being shameful. For, its a bad witness for Christ, because its not a truthful witness.. It denies the Word of God.

Again.. not telling you that you must eat foods that you do not want to. Just admit that those who do eat foods you do not want to, are not being erroneous before God.

So we can think and not be trapped by legalism.I would be the first one to tell people not to eat junk food. For its not the food as God created it to be. We are to receive with thanksgiving all things God created. The Greek means - the actual created thing. Denatured food is not how God created it to be.


.


.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So you would have burned Paul at the stake.

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions
of conscience." 1 Cor 10:25 - The Romans adored pork!


Could they do that testing back when the Bible was written? No... They did not have the medical know how.

God knew there would come a time when men would be able to research and know when a meat is infected, or not. We are not living in the uninformed world that once was. Now some choose to be uninformed.

If you live where there are health inspections and meats are shown free of any infection? Now you can eat anything cleared. Just like once a Gentile was shown to be regenerate, a Jewish believer could now be in full fellowship. Where as, before? No Jews were free to associate with Gentiles. There is an analogy there.

If they find salmonella in lettuce today. Yet, its listed as a clean food? Eat it then! (your mis-reasoning works both ways)

God knows how man's understanding and knowledge would increase. He also knows how some will be weak in faith.

It has nothing to do with testing. God tells us to make a difference between the clean and the unclean foods and not to eat them. They are Gods Word not mine. As shown through the scripture context earlier 1 CORINTHIANS 10:19-28 is talking about food offered to idols. It is not talking about eating clean and unclean animals that God has commanded us not to eat. Context matters and it is not saying what you are saying.

Hope this helps.

 

[GenemZ]

It has nothing to do with testing. God tells us to make a difference between the clean and the unclean foods and not to eat them.

Well... I'll be! A real time traveler! You think you are living in the same kind of world you left. No.. This is year 2020. God told that to Jews during the age of Israel. Not us.

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
The old things have passed away; behold, the new
has come into being." 2 Cor 5:17​

Shalom brother. Can I tell you about the Messiah? A lot has happened since the year you left from!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

On thios we agree!

Well that is good, it is God's Word not mine as already shown in James 4:17 and Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31. This links also to Hebrews 10:26 that state we are only held accountable for sin once we (believers) have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and reject it.

Well I don't know what you mean by "within SCripture context" but surrounding , I assume you mean the chapter and book it is written in!

Here let me explain my meaing here Nolidad in regards to the "within scripture context" as it may be helpful. The Hebrew and the Greek languages are not like the English language. English tends to have very precise word meanings and definitions where as the Hebrew and Greek words can have multiple and many word meanings and it is the context with other Hebrew and Greek words used in sentance structure that determines word meanings and definition applied to chapter context. In the scrolls there is no chapters and english grammer these have all been added in by the translators. So when I am referring to both within scripture (sentence) context and chapter context my meaning is that it is both the scripture or sentence structure that 1. determines the precise Hebrew and Greek Word meanings and 2. the surrounding scriptures (chapter) as also used to verify the within scripture context to determine the precise word meaning and topic of conversation which is needed to help bible interpretation. Of course these are only rules and methods used to help understand what that bible means. No method is useful of we d not ask God to be our guide and teacher. What I provided to you in post # 169 linked was both the within scripture and chapter contexts of Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39. The "within scripture context and surrounding scripture contexts" from the same book of Hebrews proves that a "beleiver" can depart the faith and fall away to become an "unbeliever" by rejecting and not following God's Word and falling back into known unrepentant sin. The within scripure and chapter contexts have been demonstrated in post # 169 linked.

Now if you would only do a word study in the language the book was written in, you would find out that the author is not talking to believers at all but to those who may have professed to believe or were known to be "on the edge" as we say today of getting saved!

I have done word studies in the language it was written in and have also provided the within scripture context to identify word meaning and and subject matter application and already proven that the context to Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 are to those who where once believers who have departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin. You can also verify the above in topical application and subject matter study with other scripture throughout God's Word that show the same meanings that God's people can depart the faith and return to sin in both the old and new testament scriptures.

You should look at the context! The context is the Supremacy of Jesus over the Old system!

Way back in Hebrews chapter 10 it is dealing with the sacrifice of JESUS but this does not effect what has been shared with you in regards to HEBREWS 10:26-39 as a new line of thought is being expressed here. Remember earlier I stated to you that there is no chapters in the original Koine Greek or the Hebrew. They are just continous scrolls. Here let's look at the chapter though if it will be helpful to the discussion here..

HEBREWS 10:1-3 talks about the ceremonial shadow sacrificial laws for sin how they made nothing perfect and needed to be remembered once every year (day of atonement).

HEBREWS 10:4-8 talks about the blood of bulls and goats made nothing perfect because they were only symbols of what was to come (JESUS) who was the one the volume of the book pointed to. God having no pleasure in the death of animal sin offerings.

HEBREWS 10:9-15 talks that the sacrificial sin offerings pointed to Jesus as our perfect sacrifice for sin and that the old sacrificial sin offerings are to be taken away by his single death on the cross for our sins.

HEBREWS 10:15-20 talks about the bringing in of the new covenant. No more sacirficial sin offerings. They are all fulfilled in JESUS. Many mistake these new covenant as doing away with God's 10 commandments but you can see in the context it is not God's 10 commandments that are being abolished but the law of the levitical priesthood and Sanctuary service and animal sacrifices which all pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation for mankind and the work of JESUS in the heavenly Sanctuary.

HEBREWS 10:21-22 concludes what is written above showing that JESUS is our true high Priest over the house of God and we should draw near to God in full assurance of faith.

HEBREWS 10:23-25 begins a new line of thought, saying; [23], LET US HOLD FAST THE PROFESSION OF OUR FAITH WITHOUT WAVERING; FOR HE IS FAITHFUL THAT PROMISED.[24], AND LET US CONSIDER ONE ANOTHER TO PROVOKE TO LOVE AND TO GOOD WORKS [25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, AS YOU SEE THE DAY APPROACHING.

Note that the topic is focussed now now getting the believers to hold fast the profession of faith and the day of the Lord is fast approaching..

HEBREWS 10:26-39 [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD. [32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions; [33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used. [34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.[38], NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. [39], But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Note after warning the believers to in HEBREWS 10:23-25 to HOLD FAST THE PROFESSION OF OUR FAITH WITHOUT WAVERING and that the THE DAY of God APPROACHING. Paul goes on to state in HEBREWS 10:26-39 that...

1. For if "WE" (believers includes Paul) sin willfully after we receive a knowledge of the truth v26
2. God's sacrifice for sin does not cover us v26
3. If we continue in known unrepentant sin all that remains is a fearful looking forward to of judgement v27
4. This judgement shall devour and consume those who continue in sin v27
5. The believer that has now become an unbeliever and continues in sin is now God's adversary v27
6. Those who turn away from the truth of God's Word to sin become Gods' adversaries because they reject the gift of God's grace offerered by dear son v29
7. They are said to have trodden under food the son of God and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing v29
8. Those who depart the faith do dispite of the Spirit of God's grace v29
9. The warning of God's vengence is given v30
10. For those who depart the faith it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God v31
11 The just are those who live by faith (believing and following Gods' Word) v38
12 Once again continuing on the same thought as point 11 IF ANY MAN DRAWS BACK (departs the faith) Pauls soul has no pleasure in him.

All the above are Gods' Word not mine and show that a believer can depart the faith and fall away into known unrepentant sin. We can also go through HEBREWS 6:4-8 and show the same thing if you like just let me know?

Hope this is helpful