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Featured CAN YOU HAVE GOD'S GRACE WITHOUT GOD'S LAW?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I came to Jesus due to Bible tracts.

    You don't like links
    (No judgment. Links are not always safe reading. I'm an expert on this)
    so I will copy some here:


    MY STORY: HOW MY LIFE CHANGED
    My Story: Josh McDowell
    “I had to admit that Jesus Christ was more than a carpenter. He was all He claimed to be.”
    Josh McDowell 13 Minute Read
    When I was a teenager, I wanted to be happy. I wanted my life to have meaning. I became hounded by three basic questions: Who am I? Why am I here? Where am I going? I started searching for answers.

    Where I was brought up, everyone seemed to be into religion, so I thought I might find my answers in being religious. I got into church 150 percent. I went every time the doors opened – morning, afternoon, or evening. But I must have picked the wrong church, because I felt worse inside it than I did outside. From my upbringing on a farm in Michigan I inherited a rural practicality that says when something doesn’t work, get rid of it. So I chucked religion.

    Then I thought that education might have the answers to my questions, so I enrolled in a university. Faculty members and my fellow students had just as many problems, frustrations and unanswered questions as I did. Education, I decided, was not the answer.

    I began to think maybe I could find happiness and meaning in prestige. But the thrill of prestige wore off like everything else I had tried. I endured Monday through Friday, living only for the partying nights of the weekend. Then, on Monday, the meaningless cycle would begin all over again.

    I didn’t let on that my life was meaningless; I was too proud for that. Everyone thought I was the happiest man on campus. They never suspected that my happiness was a sham. It depended on my circumstances. If things were going great for me, I felt great. When things were going lousy, I felt lousy. I just didn’t let it show.

    A Different Group
    About that time, I noticed a small group of people – eight students and two faculty members – who seemed different from the others. They seemed to know who they were and where they were going. And they had convictions. It is refreshing to find people with convictions, and I like to be around them. I admire people who believe in something and take a stand for it, even if I don’t agree with their beliefs.

    It was clear to me that these people had something I didn’t have.

    They were disgustingly happy. And their happiness didn’t ride up and down with the circumstances of university life; it was constant. They appeared to possess an inner source of joy, and I wondered where it came from.

    It was clear to me that these people had something I didn’t have.
    A couple of weeks later I sat around a table in the student union talking with some of the members of this group. The conversation turned to the topic of God. I was pretty skeptical and insecure about this subject, so I put on a big front. I leaned back in my chair, acting like I couldn’t care less.

    “Christianity, ha!” I blustered. “That’s for unthinking weaklings, not for intellectuals.” Of course, under all the bluster I really wanted what these people had, but my pride didn’t want them to know the aching urgency of my need. The subject bothered me, but I couldn’t let go of it. So I turned to one of the students and said: “Tell me, why are you so different from all the other students and faculty on this campus? What changed your life?”

    Without hesitation or embarrassment she looked me straight in the eye, deadly serious, and uttered two words I never expected to hear in an intelligent discussion on a university campus: “Jesus Christ.”
    My Conversion Story: by Josh McDowell
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Again, no one ever got saved by "research", if they did not repent of being "a legalist" , "a leftist" , "a progressive" ,
    since Scripture does not endorse politics, and politics never saved anyone .
    Scripture does not require a "leftist progressive" anything for anyone to be saved.
    That is all political jargon with apparently continual bad fruit, bad teaching, and no salvation because no Jesus in politicts , nor repentance from sin and selfishness.

    Scripture requires repentance from sin, not "political correctness" to forget sin without repenting.
     
  3. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Or they might need to move :)
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Shake the dust from your feet and move to another country.
    The US will let in a few due to religious persecution.
     
  5. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Sin is what you think is right between you and God.

    I'm sure you'll agree that a 25 year Christian has different
    ideas about what to repent of than the 25 day Christian.
    (Kidding. I am not sure at all.)

    How could that be so? That the sins they repent are different?
    Would that be that the sin is in the heart of the beholder?
    (Likely, you say not. But I stick with it myself.)
     
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Jesus PRAISED THE HEAVENLY FATHER for hiding Salvation from the educated ones,
    and REVEALING SALVATION to the "weaklings", little children.

    This is key to unraveling where things went wrong, apparently.

    Those people had convictions...... yep, sure did.....

    "seemed different" yep, self-confident. self assured. but don't admire flesh/ man/ men for "believe in something" and "take a stand for it" "even if... don't agree with their beliefs"....

    They got you. Lock stock and barrel.

    There are many potential "groups" with CONVICTIONS, but not convicted of sin. Not convictions God Desires in them.
    "SELF" confident, instead of "GOD-confidence" .... see yet ? IT will take a while, certainly, but it is worth it. THis is the closest we've come to seeing what went wrong.
     
  7. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I agree fully. I was a literal conservative for decades. Even a Young Earth Creationist.
    You can check my post history on this forum.

    But literal reading has converted me to a "New Age" believer
    in Grace over legalism. That and I found my gay neighbor
    wouldn't think of breaking any laws. Not like conservatives
    imagine..orgies and children in danger. My neighbors are
    both gay and families with children, and the gays keep the law
    while the drunks and drug users sit in jail. The Conservatives lied.
    I lied back when I condemned gays for lawlessness.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    This is totally wrong.
     
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    This is false also. Totally in this case, the way you are using it.

    "Mature" Ekklesia lives should be different than baby Ekklesia.

    Both Mature and baby, little children, all have repented of perversion, theft, idolatry, greed, as written - GO AND SIN NO MORE - is for all the age groups.

    STOP SINNING. is for all the age groups. STOP CORRUPTING GOD'S WORD, is for all the age groups.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Not according to Yahweh, Jesus, Ekklesia, OR SCRIPTURE !
     
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    SkyWriting said:
    Would that be that the sin is in the heart of the beholder?
    Your paraphrase has no argument power.
    What? No scripture...again?
    I can repost if you insist on ignoring scripture. At least others will read the 12 PASSAGES that explain that God judges your actions by your hearts intentions alone:

    Luke 16:15
    So He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is prized among men is detestable before God.

    John 8:15
    You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.

    Acts 1:24
    And they prayed, "Lord, You know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two You have chosen

    1 Samuel 2:3
    Do not boast so proudly, or let arrogance come from your mouth, for the LORD is a God who knows, and by Him actions are weighed.

    1 Kings 8:39
    be heard by You from heaven, Your dwelling place. And may You forgive and act, and repay each man according to all his ways, since You know his heart--for You alone know the hearts of all men--

    1 Chronicles 28:9
    As for you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve Him wholeheartedly and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands the intention of every thought. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

    2 Chronicles 6:30
    be heard by You from heaven, Your dwelling place. And may You forgive and repay each man according to all his ways, since You know his heart--for You alone know the hearts of men--

    Job 10:4
    Do You have eyes of flesh? Do You see as man sees?

    Proverbs 15:11
    Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the LORD--how much more the hearts of men!

    Proverbs 16:2
    All a man's ways are pure in his own eyes, but his motives are weighed by the LORD.

    Proverbs 24:12
    If you say, "Behold, we did not know about this," will not He who weighs hearts consider it? Does not the One who guards your life know? Will He not repay a man according to his deeds?

    Jeremiah 11:20
    But, O LORD of Hosts, who judges righteously, who tests the heart and mind, let me see Your vengeance upon them, for I have committed my cause to You.

    Jeremiah 17:10
    I, the LORD, search the heart; I test the mind to reward a man according to his way, by what his deeds deserve.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    The Scripture, all Scripture, EVEN what you post! Speaks against you.
    The Scripture, all Scripture, what everyone posts, speaks against you.
    Yahweh never said what you claim, yet Scripture, which you are opposed to ,

    in your posts you keep putting up a 'front' as if "the form of religion" , but still by your own words denying the truth, denying the power (of Jesus to save, in line with Scripture).

    IF it was as you say, which is clearly opposed to Scripure, was true, then JESUS WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO DIE - thus denying the GOSPEL by your posts and beliefs.

    Whenever anyone posted Scripture, exposing your errors and the sinfulness of sin the WAY JESUS SAYS,
    you denied it.

    What good will ANY SCRIPTURE do then, when the eyes cannot see, and the heart is stone ?
    We pray hopefully, expectantly, joyously, not for the sin, but for a new heart and a clean heart, for a right spirit, rightly understanding Yahweh's Word. (that only a new heart and a new mind can even grasp - the old sinful nature rejects Jesus, rejects truth, does not even seek the truth, nor repent of sin) .

    Yahweh wants the sin to stop, not the thoughts to accept the abominations that are sin as if they are not sin. He Calls them Abominations on PURPOSE, TRUTHFULLY, in HIS WORD, and in HIS PLAN for SALVATION> Abominations that must be STOPPED< repented of, and atoned for.

    Without the BLOOD OF JESUS there is no atonement. Without repentance, their is no sacrifice for the sin. Thus no salvation without repentance.
     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    What you think is right is sin? So every time you DO WHAT IS RIGHT, that is sin !?

    Rather, yes, what you think is right IS sin. Yes, I agree, as does all Scripture,
    likewise Yahweh and Jesus.

    Thank you.

    Or did you mean that sin is what you think is NOT right between you and God ?

    If you agree with Jesus, this is truth as written in Scripture - Jesus says any transgression of TORAH is sin. If you agree with Jesus, and with God's Word, then you also say any transgression of TORAH is sin.

    Transgression of TORAH is sin, and is what is NOT right between you and God. That is correct.
     
  14. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    Our knowledge of good and evil is a result of being made in the image of God. Even in those who have never been exposed to the Decalogue there is natural knowledge of good and that which is not good. The law sets God's standards before man and provides proof positive that without the Grace of God there can be no salvation. It also serves as the foundation for the nation that God was building. The Grace of God allows man to grow in righteousness and progress towards the full potential that he was intended to have when he was created by God.
     
  15. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Dont waste your time Jeff, hes obviously abandoning Gods command in favor of homosexuality.
     
  16. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    So would you then say that God did not give any grace prior to the book of Exodus? How can that be?
     
  17. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    Their sin like all sin was based on pride, what they wanted was more important than what God wanted. Knowledge of the law is not required for sin. When we do what we want to do even when we know in our hearts that it is wrong, we sin, no written law is required.
     
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    We must read different bibles? How do you know what SIN is when God's WORD says that SIN is breaking any one of God's 10 commandments?

    NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES

    JAMES 2:8-12
    [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
    [9], But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.
    [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    [11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

    Yep, James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW and commit SIN. James quotes two of the 10 Commandments saying that if we break them we commit sin v9 that are summed up in the 2nd great commandments of LOVE to God and LOVE to our neighbour in v11. Maybe you missed that one?

    ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

    Well here we have Paul in agreement with James and John also telling us that he did not know what sin was without God's 10 Commandments. SIN is breaking God's commandments and Paul uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN (Exodus 20:17)

    links to...

    1 JOHN 3:4 [4] Whosoever commits SIN transgresses also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law.

    John is saying the same thing as James and Paul and states that if we TRANSGRESS God's LAW then we commit SIN because SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW. So it is very clear that SIN is breaking ANY of God's LAW (10 commandments). We will look at the chapter context John uses v15 of MURDER as an example of sin which is God's 6th Command of the 10.


    Sin is indeed defined in God's WORD as breaking any of the 10 Commandments in both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures.

    ................

    SIN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT BREAKING THE 10 COMMANDMENTS (Summarized)

    God said in Genesis 4:7 to Cain when he was angry because he did not worship God in his appointed way that by doing this it was sin. Jesus say the same in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we follow and teachings of men that break the commandments of God we are not following God. Mankind was destroyed by a flood because of sin (Genesis 6:5-7).

    Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sin (Genesis 18:20). Jacob knew about sin when he complained to Laben when he left with his daughters (Genesis 31:36).

    When Potiphar’s wife came to Joseph with the aim of committing adultery, Joseph knew it was sin and protested saying how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? (Genesis 39:9).

    God said that if Israel was not to make a covenant with the other nations and serve their god's it would be sin (Exodus 23:33). When Moses was delayed on the Mount with God the children of ISRAEL made an Idol and worshipped it breaking God's 1st and 2nd commandment (Exodus 20:3-5). Moses said to them after he returned, you have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin (Exodus 32:30; Deuteronomy 9:16-18). Moses said to Aaron that by making an idol for the people to worship that it was a great sin (Exodus 32:21; 30). God would punish the children of Israel for their sin of Idol worship (Exodus 32:34).

    God said to Moses in reference to breaking the 10 Commandments; Whosoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book (Exodus 32:33).

    God said that if Israel was not to make a covenant with the other nations and serve their god's it would be sin (Exodus 23:33). Joshua says stealing is sin (Joshua 7:11). Achan knew when he was caught stealing that he sinned (Joshua 7:20).

    When God's people forsake God to worship other God's, they also confess that they had sinned in breaking God's commandments (Judges 10:10;15). Samuel made atonement for God's people when they wanted to return to God confessing that they had sinned after they worshipped other Gods breaking God's 1st and 2nd commandments (1 Samuel 7:5; 12:10; Exodus 20:2-5).

    King Saul wanted to kill David, but Jonathon spoke good of David saying to him no to sin against David by killing him (1 Samuel 19:4). David cut the skirt of King Saul in the cave and said to him that he could have killed him if he wanted to but did not sin against him by sparing his life (1 Samuel 24:11). King Saul replied that in wanting to kill David he had sinned (1 Samuel 26:21).

    When David became king he desired Bathsheba who was another man’s wife and organized for her husband Uriah the Hitite to be sent to the front line of battle to be killed. God sent Nathan to David and David confessed in doing this that he had sinned in breaking God's 6th and 7th Commandment (Exodus 20:13:14). David confessed that he had sinned to breaking God's LAW (1 Samuel 12:13).

    Now we can also go through all the evil Kings of Israel that sinned against God by following and worshipping other Gods which is also defined as sin in God's WORD but there would be too many scriptures (2 Kings 17:7). God testified that they served other Gods and idols sending them prophets to warn them of their sins (2 Kings 17:12-13; 16-17). We are also told that King Manasseh also broke God's 6th commandment and killed more innocent people then most others testifying that by doing this he had sinned (2 Kings 16:17). God continued to send prophets to warn his people of the consequences of sin (Nehemiah 9:30). God's people continued in their sins forsaking God's LAW (10 commandments) and in doing so God left them and Israel were overthrown and led into captivity to the other nations because they departed from God serving other God's and idols. Nehemiah knew this and prayed to God confessing their sins (Nehemiah 1:6-9). God's people continued to sin against God by worshipping other Gods despite the warning of Jeremiah (Jeremiah 44:18-23). In despite of God's Word teaching that God's people had forsaken the 10 commandments and sinned against God, going into captivity, God promised he would bring them back when they returned to him and heal them from their sins of breaking his commandments (Ezekiel 37:22-23).

    Hosea testified by the Word of the Lord that God's people by making idols and worshipping other god's, lying, stealing, killing, committing adultery would receive the judgments of God because they had sinned by departing from the 10 Commandments (Hosea 4:1-19).

    The word of the Lord came to Zephaniah saying that all those who continue in sin by worshipping other God's and breaking his commandments will be destroyed off the land because they have sinned against God (Zephaniah 1:2-17).

    ...............

    Yep God’s WORD is very clear that sin is defined as breaking ANY of the 10 Commandments just as James, Paul and John all teach in the NEW TESTAMENT (James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20). All the above scriptures show by example, quoting individual commandments from the 10 Commandments that SIN is indeed also defined as breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

    Strawman much? Where has it ever been posted that we are trying to keep God's LAW for salvation? If no one has said what your claiming why do you pretend that they have? If your argument is what no one is arguing about then you have no argument.

    We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. However, God's WORD also says, ALL those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    The purpose of God's LAW (10 Commandment) according to God's WORD is to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172.

    Sorry brother God's WORD disagrees with you.

    Did you wish you answer the question from the OP now?

    What is God's GRACE for?

    How can you have GRACE in the NEW TESTAMENT without God's LAW when God's LAW leads to GRACE?

    God's Sheep hear his Voice (the WORD)
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Actually if your under the law you stand guilty before God of breaking it *ROMANS 3:19. Salvation is indeed a gift. In your view, does that mean as Christians we are free now to go out and break God's LAW?

    Now no one has ever said that we are saved by God's LAW we are saved by Grace through faith it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8. Why do you think JESUS says to those who receive God's GRACE If you LOVE me keep my commandments *JOHN 14:15?

    ............

    Back to the OP questions.

    WHAT IS GRACE FOR?

    WHAT PART DOES GOD'S LAW HAVE IN GRACE?

    CAN WE HAVE GOD'S GRACE IN THE NC WITHOUT GOD'S LAW? (Scripture please)

    God bless.
     
  20. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi Maria, is it the law that is bondage or is it SIN that is bondage? What is God's GRACE to us in the NEW COVENANT and how is it expressed?

    OP QUESTIONS

    .............

    WHAT IS GRACE FOR?

    WHAT PART DOES GOD'S LAW HAVE IN GRACE?

    CAN WE HAVE GOD'S GRACE IN THE NC WITHOUT GOD'S LAW? (Scripture please)

    God bless.
     
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