Can you find the Church?

[concretecamper]

And I already showed you.

Luke 17:20-21

sorry, that doesn't show the Church is invisible. Maybe someone else can post a scripture passage that shows the Church Christ established is invisible.

 

[Love First]

sorry, that doesn't show the Church is invisible. Maybe someone else can post a scripture passage that shows the Church Christ established is invisible.

Yes it does.

 

[Love First]

sorry, that doesn't show the Church is invisible. Maybe someone else can post a scripture passage that shows the Church Christ established is invisible.

Please see my post #40

 

[FenderTL5]

I'm talking about the "true Church,"........ i.e., the one started by Christ and founded upon the Apostles.

Jesus did say he was going to build his Church, didn’t he....... (Matt. 16:18)?

Isn’t “the church” spoken of often in Scripture ( Eph.3:10, 5:21–32; Col.1:24; 1 Tim 2: 15)?

Your thoughts?

Have a Blessed day

I found it, so I guess the answer is yes.

Agree; can and did.

 

[Fidelibus]

Yes it does.

I would have to agree with concretecamper, for like c.c., nowhere in Luke 17:20-21 do I see anything about the church founded by Christ to be invisible.

However, in Matt.18:17 Jesus did say if we have an unresolved grievance we should “tell it to the church.” How’s that possible if the church is “invisible”? Didn’t his Church have to be something which could be found, and which had the authority to resolve disputes among its members?

Notice too Love first, He said tell it to “the church”..........only one...... singular, not churches..... plural.

Have a Blessed day

 

[Love First]

I would have to agree with concretecamper, for like c.c., nowhere in Luke 17:20-21 do I see anything about the church founded by Christ to be invisible.

However, in Matt.18:17 Jesus did say if we have an unresolved grievance we should “tell it to the church.” How’s that possible if the church is “invisible”? Didn’t his Church have to be something which could be found, and which had the authority to resolve disputes among its members?

Notice too Love first, He said tell it to “the church”..........only one...... singular, not churches..... plural.

Have a Blessed day

As I already said the Church is both visible and invisible.

What do you think that Luke 17:20-21 is saying?

 

[CConversation]

I like how someone quoted the scripture that the Kingdom of God is within Us. Calling the body of Christ physical and spiritual but not invisible is distracting. Love is what motivates the Kingdom of God and Jesus told us what We Can See 'You will know My People by their love for one another'.

Here are 5 scriptures that force us to acknowledge love in the body of Christ before we can come to the next step, James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world".

1John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

1John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

James 4 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Matthew 25:30 "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:" "Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." "Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?" "When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?" "Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?" "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

 

[Fidelibus]

As I already said the Church is both visible and invisible.

Yes, I know.

What do you think that Luke 17:20-21 is saying?

Well, the Catholic Churches understanding (in which I am a member of) is as follows.

"[17:20–37] To the question of the Pharisees about the time of the coming of God’s kingdom, Jesus replies that the kingdom is among you (Lk 17:20–21). The emphasis has thus been shifted from an imminent observable coming of the kingdom to something that is already present in Jesus’ preaching and healing ministry. Luke has also appended further traditional sayings of Jesus about the unpredictable suddenness of the day of the Son of Man, and assures his readers that in spite of the delay of that day (Lk 12:45), it will bring judgment unexpectedly on those who do not continue to be vigilant.

[17:21] Among you: the Greek preposition translated as among can also be translated as “within.” In the light of other statements in Luke’s gospel about the presence of the kingdom (see Lk 10:9, 11; 11:20) “among” is to be preferred." (Source: From the USCCB Bible Study)

A couple of follow up questions.

1. What is it that Jesus tells the Pharisees is "among you" (plural) that is the Kingdom of God?

2. If you wanted to join the New Testament Church, could you find it? Could you point out its leaders and learn its particular doctrines?

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Love First]

Yes, I know.



Well, the Catholic Churches understanding (in which I am a member of) is as follows.

"[17:20–37] To the question of the Pharisees about the time of the coming of God’s kingdom, Jesus replies that the kingdom is among you (Lk 17:20–21). The emphasis has thus been shifted from an imminent observable coming of the kingdom to something that is already present in Jesus’ preaching and healing ministry. Luke has also appended further traditional sayings of Jesus about the unpredictable suddenness of the day of the Son of Man, and assures his readers that in spite of the delay of that day (Lk 12:45), it will bring judgment unexpectedly on those who do not continue to be vigilant.

[17:21] Among you: the Greek preposition translated as among can also be translated as “within.” In the light of other statements in Luke’s gospel about the presence of the kingdom (see Lk 10:9, 11; 11:20) “among” is to be preferred." (Source: From the USCCB Bible Study)

A couple of follow up questions.

1. What is it that Jesus tells the Pharisees is "among you" (plural) that is the Kingdom of God?

2. If you wanted to join the New Testament Church, could you find it? Could you point out its leaders and learn its particular doctrines?

Have a Blessed Day!

What did Jesus mean when He said, “The kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21, KJV)? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Fidelibus]

What did Jesus mean when He said, “The kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21, KJV)? | GotQuestions.org

I'm sorry lovefirst, but "Gotquestions.com" in my book has totally less credibility than Wikipedia. Gotquestions.com' agenda is very anti-Catholic. Going to Gotquestions with a question or questions regarding the Catholic Church is like asking the Ku Klux Klan on what their views are regarding African Americans, Jews or Catholics! With that being said, I won't waste my time reading it.

Also, would you also agree whoever it was that wrote this article from gotquestions.com on Luke 17:20-21 was giving nothing more than their personal/fallible and non- authoritive interpretation/opinions that is subject to error? Or in other words..... could be completely wrong??

I sure do!!

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Love First]

I'm sorry lovefirst, but "Gotquestions.com" in my book has totally less credibility than Wikipedia. Gotquestions.com' agenda is very anti-Catholic. Going to Gotquestions with a question or questions regarding the Catholic Church is like asking the Ku Klux Klan on what their views are regarding African Americans, Jews or Catholics! With that being said, I won't waste my time reading it.

Also, would you also agree whoever it was that wrote this article from gotquestions.com on Luke 17:20-21 was giving nothing more than their personal/fallible and non- authoritive interpretation/opinions that is subject to error? Or in other words..... could be completely wrong??

I sure do!!

Have a Blessed Day!

Well since I’m a Messianic Jew your so called authority of the Roman Catholic Church means absolutely nothing to me. The link I posted has valuable information so if you choose to ignore it because you feel that the RCC is the only source of truth you can learn from that’s your loss.

Bye For Now.

 

[prodromos]

Well since I’m a Messianic Jew your so called authority of the Roman Catholic Church means absolutely nothing to me. The link I posted has valuable information so if you choose to ignore it because you feel that the RCC is the only source of truth you can learn from that’s your loss.

Bye For Now.

Is water still drinkable if it has poison mixed in?

 

[Love First]

Is water still drinkable if it has poison mixed in?

When you find the perfect Church and you find flawless doctrine and understanding let me know.

 

[Fidelibus]

Well since I’m a Messianic Jew your so called authority of the Roman Catholic Church means absolutely nothing to me.

Hello again Lovefirst, and thanks for your response. First off, being you are a Messianic Jew, you may not be aware of the fact there is no official Rite within the Catholic Church referred to as "The Roman Catholic Church." However, there is the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church that you may be referring too. Which by the way, is just one of many Rites (23) within the Catholic Church that are in full communion with the Holy See.

The link I posted has valuable information so if you choose to ignore it because you feel that the RCC is the only source of truth you can learn from that’s your loss.

First off, I couldn't help but noticed you dismissed my question to you in my last post about the writer of the article you shared from GotQuestions.com. I will re-post it.

would you also agree whoever it was that wrote this article from gotquestions.com on Luke 17:20-21 was giving nothing more than their personal/fallible and non- authoritative interpretation/opinions that is subject to error? Or in other words..... could be completely wrong??

Also Lovefirst, I found it odd that you would dismiss without hesitation, the Catholic Church's teaching and understanding of Lk.17:20-21, but will give the fallible and non-authoritative writer of 'gotquestion' personal interpretation and opinions of said passage a thumbs up as "valuable information", and that it is my loss for not accepting the writers "fallible" interpretation that could be in error? I'm sorry, and no dis-respect, but to me, that seems like a really odd thing to say.

Bye For Now.

I hope not for good LoveFirst, because I was really enjoying our conversations, and was really looking forward to you addressing the questions of mine on post # 30, 45, 48, and this last question about the writer from Gotquestions.com.

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Love First]

Hello again Lovefirst, and thanks for your response. First off, being you are a Messianic Jew, you may not be aware of the fact there is no official Rite within the Catholic Church referred to as "The Roman Catholic Church." However, there is the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church that you may be referring too. Which by the way, is just one of many Rites (23) within the Catholic Church that are in full communion with the Holy See.



First off, I couldn't help but noticed you dismissed my question to you in my last post about the writer of the article you shared from GotQuestions.com. I will re-post it.



Also Lovefirst, I found it odd that you would dismiss without hesitation, the Catholic Church's teaching and understanding of Lk.17:20-21, but will give the fallible and non-authoritative writer of 'gotquestion' personal interpretation and opinions of said passage a thumbs up as "valuable information", and that it is my loss for not accepting the writers "fallible" interpretation that could be in error? I'm sorry, and no dis-respect, but to me, that seems like a really odd thing to say.



I hope not for good LoveFirst, because I was really enjoying our conversations, and was really looking forward to you addressing the questions of mine on post # 30, 45, 48, and this last question about the writer from Gotquestions.com.

Have a Blessed Day!

A few things.

1. Yes the Catholic Church is also called the Roman Catholic Church and you can check this link if you don’t believe me. I am a Confirmed Catholic so I know more about the RCC then you might think.

Catholic Church - Wikipedia

2. The writers at Got Questions have the Holy Spirit just like you so yes they are capable of conveying truths.

3. I read your response from the Catholic Church on Luke 17:20-21 and found it to be quite lacking.

4. I will try to look at those other posts.

 

[Love First]

A lot of Protestants and non denominationals within this forum would disagree with you, especially the church being visible part. I am surprised none have disagreed with you yet.

Do you agree that the Church of the New Testament is the true Church—the one divinely founded, ordered, and guided by Christ?

Have a Blessed Day!

Do I think the Church of the New Testament is the true Church? Yes, insofar as many of the members were true believers. Do I think the RCC is the true Church? No.

 

[prodromos]

When you find the perfect Church and you find flawless doctrine and understanding let me know.

Orthodox Church. Presently made up of imperfect people so it is unlikely you would find it perfect this side of the grave.

 

[Fidelibus]

Do I think the Church of the New Testament is the true Church? Yes, insofar as many of the members were true believers.

Okay then, it only seems logical then that one would want to join this Church..... right? If you wanted to join the New Testament Church, could you find it? Could you point out its leaders and learn its particular doctrines?

Do I think the RCC is the true Church? No.

Please elaborate further.

Have a Blessed Evening!

 

[Fidelibus]

A few things.
1. Yes the Catholic Church is also called the Roman Catholic Church and you can check this link if you don’t believe me.

Lovefirst, did you happen to actually read what Wikipedia said in this link you provided? I usually I would not use them as a reference, but I will post the very first paragraph from your link.

The Catholic Church, often referred to as the Roman Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church, with approximately 1.3 billion baptised Catholics worldwide as of 2019.[4] As the world's oldest and largest continuously functioning international institution,[7] it has played a prominent role in the history and development of Western civilisation.[8] The church consists of 24 particular churches and almost 3,500 dioceses and eparchies around the world. The pope, who is the Bishop of Rome (and whose titles also include Vicar of Jesus Christ and Successor of St. Peter), is the chief pastor of the church,[9] entrusted with the universal Petrine ministry of unity and correction. The church's administration, the Holy See, is in the Vatican City, a tiny enclave of Rome, of which the pope is head of state.

Notice the very first three words? The Church may be "referred" to as "The Roman Catholic Church," but you will not find an official document from the Vatican showing a Rite as "Roman Catholic."

Here is an explanation from Fr. Charles Groudin over at Catholicanswers.com.

Question: Why are we called Roman Catholics?

Answer: The term Roman Catholic is never used by the Church.
To distinguish between the different Churches within the Catholic Church, the term the Roman Church is often used. This is meant to apply to those who use the Roman rite and are under the authority of bishops of that Church. In this case it is used to distinguish the Roman Church from the Maronite Church, the Coptic Church, etc. Each Church has its own bishops, rites, and laws but is in communion with the others. However, the more accurate title is the Latin Church, whereas the Roman Church technically refers to the diocese of Rome.

The term Roman Catholic was used mainly by English-speaking Protestants. It was part of their attempt to portray the pope as the leader of just a faction of Christianity, as if he was the same as the monarch of England, who was the head of the Anglican community. As with many terms that start out as an insult but later are embraced and adopted by the group they were aimed at, Catholics in the West over time have used the term to show their union with the Holy Father.

I am a Confirmed Catholic so I know more about the RCC then you might think.

Yeah, but not to be rude, that doesn't mean you were properly catechized. We see a lot of that from folks that claimed to be "Former Catholics" that seemed to be poorly catechized. Which is no fault of their own.

2. The writers at Got Questions have the Holy Spirit just like you so yes they are capable of conveying truths.

I have never claimed to be infallible. Is it your belief the writers over at Gotquestions.com are infallible, and that what these writers interpretations and opinions of Luke 17:20-21 is absolute and without error? It kind of seems so.

3. I read your response from the Catholic Church on Luke 17:20-21 and found it to be quite lacking.

In what way? And why do you find the writers over at Gotquestions.com more credible than the writers of the USCCB?

4. I will try to look at those other posts.

Kool.... I hope that you do more than just take "a look" at them. If you know what I mean.

Have a Blessed Evening!

 

[prodromos]

Notice the very first three words? The Church may be "referred" to as "The Roman Catholic Church," but you will not find an official document from the Vatican showing a Rite as "Roman Catholic."

Don't you think it is a distinction without a difference? When Eastern Rites make up less than half of 1% of the Catholic Church that leaves 99.5% of the Church distinctly Roman. The vast majority of Catholics are not even aware of the existence of the Eastern Rites, and are scandalised when they discover married priests and infants receiving Communion.