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Featured can you find God?

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by DamianWarS, Nov 30, 2019 at 10:17 AM.

  1. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    [​IMG]

    here is an image of the shape of space and time. where would you insert God? to me it looks like he is already there.

    addition: if this is too abstract of a question then instead can you see the creation event of God? does it fit a biblical model?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019 at 11:06 AM
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  2. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member

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    Only a biblical illiterate would ask such a question.

    As Genesis says God created the universe so he cannot be found in it.
     
  3. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    God views the earth from his throne "in the sides of the north", not directly north but halfway up the northern hemisphere. The earth is his "footstool", so if you calculate the angle of the throne to the footstool you'll have the location of the throne, and thus the location of God.

    Of course the earth is turning so we don't know exactly where we are in relation to the throne at any given moment. But we know he's up there...watching. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019 at 10:40 AM
  4. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is an image of creation not the Creator.
    Be blessed.
     
  5. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    the image shows the boundaries of the universe and it also shows outside of it. outside would be called "nothing" because it cannot be measured by space/time/matter meaning anything outside if it would be outside of space/time/matter (and be preexistent to it). it seems you have either misunderstood the image or think I'm am placing God inside the cone.
     
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    He is everywhere at once, fills the entire universe, and even the universe does not contain Him. He is without end, without limits....
     
  7. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    it is an image of the shape of space and time. this is depicted as a cone/bell shape but clearly it has boundaries and there is an outside to the cone (which is not the cone), there is also a beginning to the cone and the outside remains undefined. This perhaps is the most honest way to depict God since he would have to exist outside of space/time it makes him inobservable. We would only be able to observe his interactions inside the cone but these interactions would be limited and not fully represent God.

    If we are given a blank sheet of paper and asked to draw God perhaps the best way to do it is to draw nothing at all. An atheist would interpret this as the absence of God but a theist would say is the absence of something that can be measured. Two completely different things.
     
  8. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In other words, God is the blank sheet of paper.
     
  9. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    the image depicts space/time; the universe if it was laid out from beginning to end (or at least to a long way off). it has boundaries and there is an inside and outside. the outside would be looked at as "nothing" which is not wrong since it is outside the scope of our ability to measure. The outside is only cut off from the dimensions of the image otherwise it shows no limits. if we are honest with ourselves God is probably best represented through a blank sheet of paper because the moment we draw something we assume limits.

    but I get your point. perhaps a better question would be, do you see the creation event?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019 at 11:17 AM
  10. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    in other words, God is immeasurable. I'm going to ask another question is the OP to make it less abstract. Do you see the creation event in the image? This creation event would be a manifestation of God through space and time (outside of it is inobservable)
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Obediently this also avoids the sin of making an idol or a graven image.
     
  12. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    I'm not sure if those descriptors were meant to be taken literally. plus wouldn't we also have to know the proportional size of it all? if the earth is the footstool I suppose you could start with common ancient footstool proportions but because the ancient world has a very different geological view than a modern view it would probably be better to adopt a common ancient geological view to determine this arbitrary size of a footstool and where it is pointing to.
     
  13. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So setting aside God being inserted into creation, I will approach your revised question.

    I do not think man has the capacity to understand "the creation event". Though many attempts, like in the image, have been made, we only know in part and clearly we do not know this information. So if it can be as easy as saying yes or no, I can with all honesty say I have no idea!
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Where is 'God' ?

    Yahuweh is in the still small voice !

    1 Kings 19:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

    God’s Revelation to Elijah
    11 Then He said, “Go out, and stand on the mountain before the Lord.” And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake; 12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a]">[a]a still small voice.


    13 So it was, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him, and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”


    Footnotes:

    1. 1 Kings 19:12 a delicate whispering voice

    New King James Version (NKJV)
    Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

     
  15. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Though composed of spirit I believe the sea of glass, stones of fire, elders, cherubim, the throne, are real and not just metaphors. I also think they are close by in the third heaven.
     
  16. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Well I am in the theological camp (which I think is traditional Christian mainstream) that says "that God is outside of time". That comes from Christian Platonism but there are various Semitic things in the Bible, Bible verses etc. that seem to hint, or agree with that kind of idea. Namely, that time is part of the created order, and Yahew being Yahew is "self existent" and basically outside it, above it etc. He existed before the Creation of the World/ universe etc.


    But that being said, I do subscribe to old Earth Creationist, Christian Astrophysicist author Hugh Ross who is very bullish on that the Singularity creation event, AKA "the Big Bang" is in the Bible or basically justified by various passages and Hebrew terms, and likes to use science in defense of the Christianity from that sort of perspective. Coming from that standpoint, He believes that Atheistic attempts to explain the origons of life etc. are the ones on the hot seat etc. because the more we learn about the universe etc. we realize just how improbably the notion of life is and how special the Earth is. Basically in contrast to popular science fiction especially of the classic Star Trek era, where it was theorized that there might be a few hundred class M planets that could support life like on Earth (based on maybe 10 Criteria), that list has grown to maybe 40 plus things by now and is probably going to continue to grow etc.
     
  17. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    I don't agree that this fits the biblical model. Rather, Scripture is "phenomenological," that is it expresses matters simply, and from the standpoint of ancient observers. The "biblical model" would be from the perspective on earth, from ground level. Go outside and view the world around you, that's the biblical model.

    God himself is transcendent, invisible, and ever-present in creation, and stands outside of it as well. He is not confined to the space, time or matter. His substance is not something we can grasp. He is simply here, conscious and aware of all things, while present in every part of creation. Some imagine him as this giant invisible blob, others a male-figure who sits above a cloud. All false. His "form," if you want to call it that, as Scripture sometimes say to explain his being, is not something like creation, he is the (personal) being that all beings derive their existence from. He is simply present, no need of an actual form to be.
     
  18. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have been informed that there can be stars beyond the observation capability of scientists. You can not prove or disprove that there are more stars beyond what humans have been able to see. But it seems that as scientists have increased their ability to look out with telescopes, they keep discovering more and more distant stars.

    I personally can accept that God exists without limit in all directions from us, and He has universe items wherever He is, without limit in all directions.
     
  19. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    creation is the space/time cone. the image shows space/time in its entirety but it also shows boundaries and things like a clear beginning and outside of creation where there is no space or time (or boundaries). God is outside space and time (creation) and if he is anywhere in the image he is everywhere and space and time would exist in him but he is still separate from his creation. the light at the beginning may be reconciled with God saying "let there be light".
     
  20. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    the image is of space and time in its entirety since it's beginning. Matter, time, space and all of creation exists inside that cone (or at most is the cone). but it has boundaries so there is an inside and there is an outside. Outside of it is transcendent and not confined to space, time and matter and this is where God exists but rather space/time/matter exists within him yet he is still separate from it so since the beginning to the end God is there, fully present yet is not his creation. Outside we have no ability to describe, measure or observe anything since all of those things are based on the laws within the continuum and outside has no meaning according to these laws. we can not really show what's outside and can only speak of it metaphysically or abstractly. The image would not be able to "show" God nor would we be able to sit somewhere and view the continuum as the image does. even however even though the image has no interest in showing God I think it does just that.
     
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