Can you be saved not believing Jesus is God?

[1213]

Then you need to look up teh terem Kurios as it pertains to rulers. IN Rome which was the predominant culture of the day Cesars were Kurios! and they were the children of the gods! IOW they were divine! ...

In that case, by what the Bible tells, disciples of Jesus can be children of God. So, if I am a child of God, does it mean then that I am also God?

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

…Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

 

[1213]

Does Paul, in his letter to the Romans, give any indication that Jesus is God?

I don't think so.

 

[1213]

Lord=Yahweh, which means Jesus=God

Lord can have also other meanings in the Bible, as shown in the scripture below.

A Psalm of David. The LORD [Jehovah] said unto my Lord [Master], Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Ps. 110:1

 

[nolidad]

In that case, by what the Bible tells, disciples of Jesus can be children of God. So, if I am a child of God, does it mean then that I am also God?

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

…Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Well that would be nice, but no. We are adopted in to the family we will be glorified and who knows what we will do in eternity, but only three are by nature "God".

Unless of course you join the Mormons! Tnhey say you can become God

 

[1213]

...but only three are by nature "God".

Unless of course you join the Mormons! Tnhey say you can become God

I rather be a disciple of Jesus and remain loyal to him, which means that I also believe when he says:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

...the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

 

[mikeforjesus]

I know one can be tempted to think God could accept some people among those who are not willing to confess Christ because they are not willing to identify with the Christ we believe in who still secretly believe in Christ but do not think they should offend others who believe in Christ but keep it secret to reduce it just to moralism that they don’t know need to confess Christ and be willing to die for Christ if they must who did not want to follow all Christ said because they think they can deny Christ meant all He said if they do not believe they need to identify with Christ and be new creatures completely sanctified which may require for some to die for Christ I think I should not teach that because it is against the gospel which requires one to admit and not deny jesus is Christ and one is required to take up His cross and follow the requirements are clear in the gospel so I will not teach a non Christian can be saved because Jesus is clear to people in the gospel that people must confess Him before men and take up their cross people were not serious about their salvation

I know not all of us are required to die for Christ but that does not seem to mean one can be saved without confessing Christ which is required to ensure people repent as Paul said if you confess with your mouth you will be saved because you can’t do the works Christ requires without confessing because you are meant to teach people to seek unity with Christ in calling upon the name of Jesus

Because it does not seem it could save without confessing as some needed to confess and to do works in His name and some needed to die

 

[RDKirk]

I'm not even sure the Early Church knew it perfectly.

At least we have evidence that they couldn't explain it, as Athenagoras acknowledged being unable to explain it when he addressed the two Caesars in the second century.

 

[RDKirk]

None of that is required to be believed to be saved.

You’re expecting a baby believer who is ready only for the milk of the word, to have a mature believers deep understanding of the nature of Jesus, to be saved, and that’s absolutely not true.

Jesus didn’t come to earth to confuse people by stating He is God in addition to being Gods son, so He most often referred to Himself as the son of man, or the son of God.

Peter only called Jesus the son of God when Jesus asked him who He is - and Jesus didn’t rebuke him and demand he say that He is God.

Yes.

The gospel that saves is much slimmer than most people think it is.

 

[Hawkins]

What do you think? Can a person that believes Jesus is the Son, but not God be saved?

The baseline to call upon Jesus' name. The reckoning of His divinity is more of an acknowledgment from God and Jesus that it represents how close you are with our Lord Jesus and God.

 

[Hawkins]

At least we have evidence that they couldn't explain it, as Athenagoras acknowledged being unable to explain it when he addressed the two Caesars in the second century.

It is quite mainstream in 4th century that church fathers believe that Jesus is God Himself. This can be told by their commentaries such as that of Augustine. To a certain extent, Augustine is quite representative of the mainstream theology or one of the mainstream schools of thoughts back then.

By Augustine: John 20:28
Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord and my God.” He touched his flesh, he proclaimed his divinity......The divinity of Christ was the Word...... and the Word was God.” That is what Thomas proclaimed.

Another even earlier representative theologian is Origen.

Wikipedia:
Origen of Alexandria (c. 184 – c. 253), also known as Origen Adamantius, was an early Christian scholar, ascetic, and theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria. He was a prolific writer who wrote roughly 2,000 treatises in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, homiletics, and spirituality. He was one of the most influential figures in early Christian theology, apologetics, and asceticism. He has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced".

By Origen: Romans 9:5
It is clear from this passage that Christ is the “God who is over all.” The one who is over all has nothing over him, for Christ does not come after the Father but from the Father. The Holy Spirit is also included in this, as it is written: “The Spirit of the Lord fills the earth, and whoever contains all things knows every sound.” So if the Son is God over all and the Spirit is recorded as containing all things, it is clear that the nature and substance of the Trinity are shown to be one and over all things.

This is even an explicit description of His Trinity.

 

[RDKirk]

It is quite mainstream in 4th century that church fathers believe that Jesus is God Himself. This can be told by their commentaries such as that of Augustine. To a certain extent, Augustine is quite representative of the mainstream theology or one of the mainstream schools of thoughts back then.

By Augustine: John 20:28
Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord and my God.” He touched his flesh, he proclaimed his divinity......The divinity of Christ was the Word...... and the Word was God.” That is what Thomas proclaimed.

Another even earlier representative theologian is Origen.

Wikipedia:
Origen of Alexandria (c. 184 – c. 253), also known as Origen Adamantius, was an early Christian scholar, ascetic, and theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria. He was a prolific writer who wrote roughly 2,000 treatises in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, homiletics, and spirituality. He was one of the most influential figures in early Christian theology, apologetics, and asceticism. He has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced".

By Origen: Romans 9:5
It is clear from this passage that Christ is the “God who is over all.” The one who is over all has nothing over him, for Christ does not come after the Father but from the Father. The Holy Spirit is also included in this, as it is written: “The Spirit of the Lord fills the earth, and whoever contains all things knows every sound.” So if the Son is God over all and the Spirit is recorded as containing all things, it is clear that the nature and substance of the Trinity are shown to be one and over all things.

This is even an explicit description of His Trinity.

I don't see an explanation of the Trinity anywhere in there, but a statement of it. Not the same thing.

I accept the statement, but I realize that's not an explanation. It's not even really a description.

 

[Hawkins]

I don't see an explanation of the Trinity anywhere in there, but a statement of it. Not the same thing.

I accept the statement, but I realize that's not an explanation. It's not even really a description.

I said it's an explicit description, not necessarily any detailed explanation. Origen's comment is on Romans 9:5, not any intended explanation about His Trinity anyway. It's all about his commentary on how Jesus is God in the verse Romans 9:5 which is controversial all the times due to the fact that ancient Greek is not very well punctuated.

It is thus with His Trinity explicitly mentioned but not detailed as it's intended to be detailed on how Jesus is "God over all" in Romans 9:5.

 

[mikeforjesus]

.

 

[RDKirk]

I said it's an explicit description, not necessarily any detailed explanation. Origen's comment is on Romans 9:5, not any intended explanation about His Trinity anyway. It's all about his commentary on how Jesus is God in the verse Romans 9:5 which is controversial all the times due to the fact that ancient Greek is not very well punctuated.

It is thus with His Trinity explicitly mentioned but not detailed as it's intended to be detailed on how Jesus is "God over all" in Romans 9:5.

It's not an "explicit description," either. And it's not detailed in scripture.

I certainly can discern the existence of the Triune God in scripture and inductively reason the Trinity exists from scripture, but there is no "explicit mention" or "explicit description" in scripture.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It's not an "explicit description," either. And it's not detailed in scripture.

I certainly can discern the existence of the Triune God in scripture and inductively reason the Trinity exists from scripture, but there is no "explicit mention" or "explicit description" in scripture.

5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
that would make Christ the mother (new Jerusalem) or Mary (the old temple) hmn

 

[Clare73]

5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
that would make Christ the mother (new Jerusalem) or Mary (the old temple) hmn

"Theirs (Israel) are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is over all, God be forever praised!" (Ro 9:5)

Gal 4:21-28 is figurative of Sarah and Hagar as representing the two covenants,
Hagar representing the one from Mt. Sinai, corresponding to the present city of Jerusalem under the Law, and Sarah corresponding to the heavenly Jerusalem that is above and free, where
Sarah is our mother, whose children are free from the Law in the New Covenant, and
Hagar is the mother of those who are under the Law in the Old Covenant.

Now we, like Sarah's son, Isaac, are children of promise (Gal 4:27).

How does "Christ who is over all" make Jesus the mother (new Jerusalem) or Mary (the old temple)?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

"Theirs (Israel) are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is over all, God be forever praised!" (Ro 9:5)

Gal 4:21-28 is figurative of Sarah and Hagar as representing the two covenants,
Hagar representing the one from Mt. Sinai, corresponding to the present city of Jerusalem under the Law, and Sarah corresponding to the heavenly Jerusalem that is above and free, where
Sarah is our mother, whose children are free from the Law in the New Covenant, and
Hagar is the mother of those who are under the Law in the Old Covenant.

Now we, like Sarah's son, Isaac, are children of promise (Gal 4:27).

How does "Christ who is over all" make Jesus the mother (new Jerusalem) or Mary (the old temple)?

I had assumed the thread was about church fathers such as Paul.

 

[Clare73]

What do you think? Can a person that believes Jesus is the Son, but not God be saved?

Well, the gospel Jesus spells out to Nicodemus (Jn 3:1-21) shows the combined action of three divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
And while the NT shows three divine agents, it also shows only one God (Mk 12:29; 1Tim 2:5).

The gospel says that were was in God from eternity mutuality of love and joy (Jn 1:1-2, 17:5, 24);
that men were made to share this fellowship; that when sin made this impossible, God came in person--
the second Person, sent by the first Person and empowered by the third Person--to save us;
that God-made-flesh died for us, lives for us, unites us to himself, brings us to God the Father now and will take us one day to share his glory; that a divine guest, the Holy Spirit, indwells each Christian
to prompt prayer and transform our fallen nature; and that Jesus Christ is companion and friend
to every single believer, giving him or her constant and undistracted attention.

These are marvelous, fantastic things which could not be said unless Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God--in other words, unless God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Those who deny the Trinity have to scale down the gospel--and they do.
Those who deny the Trinity deny the majesty of God, for they have him
begetting inferior beings that are not divine,
redeeming by proxy--not involving his person in the redemption by the Son and sanctification of men
by the Spirit, paying no personal price, not indwelling men and
thereby they rob him of his glory (Ex 14:14).
They have to make God too small, and they do.
They take out the very heart, core and meaning of Christian faith in God.

--from my favorite writer, J. I. Packer

 

[Gottservant]

Jesus "has" God, I wouldn't say that 'means' He is God.

Another way of putting it is "Jesus was God, therefore He will be God (and because of this He 'can be said' to be a god, or the God - it's His choice."

I just want to be wary that you don't lose the nuance of what it means, when you say "this or that person 'is' something".