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Can women be pastors?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by ccc, Jan 9, 2002.

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  1. BWSmith

    BWSmith Biblical Scholar

    367
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    OK, so who is the "prophet" that Deborah is repeating in her command to Barak?

    Also, how many "prophetesses" are there in the OT?
     
  2. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
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    Deborah was a mother to Israel - Judges 5:7

    The Lord had already talked to Barak - Judges 4:6 & 7 , and all Deborah was doing, was reminding him !

    If my count is correct, there were five prophetesses in the OT .

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  3. Crazy4Christ

    Crazy4Christ Daughter of God

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    I do not agree... it is sort of sexist that males are better than females... I know one female pastor and she is really good, ( currently the youth pastor is male ) but I thought she had done a good job... Pastors are leaders and it shouldn't matter what their sex is... God speaks through Leaders, and it should not matter what kind they are... ~ God Bless
     
  4. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    +2
    it is not what we think that counts. It is what God thinks. Read this from the Word of God:

    1 Timothy 2: says

    11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

    12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

    13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

    14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

    15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

    If God's Word said otherwise, that would be my direction of thought. Is the servant wiser or greater than his master? One thing I do know for sure, my Master is God. If ever I say I know better than God, I must have gone mad.

    Now, I have sat under the teaching of women and gained much.
    But I am very discerning in what I believe, listen to and who I allow to teach me. Look at Kay Arthur, she is a great teacher, and she believes a woman should not pastor a church. Pastorship goes beyond mere teaching.



     
  5. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
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    Please explain <14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.> Is the implication that man cannot be deceived?

    Please explain <15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.> Is this the plan of salvation for women?

    IF we stand on the plain wording of <12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent> then aren't we likewise compelled to do the same with the following verses?
     
  6. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
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    Willis:

    Verse 14 - Is an explanation of the order of God. When the angels in heaven , tried to change the order of things, God cast them down out of heaven. God made man the head of the wife, and he made man the overseerer of the assembly (church).

    Verse 15 is a metaphor - A woman who is considered a believer, and if she bears children, they are saved because of the believing of at least one parent. (I Corinth. 7:14). The phrase - "women will be saved in childbearing" is saying through understanding - "women will bring about salvation in childbearing" -- as long as they are believers in what God has called them to be = Mothers. Woman can and will try God on his order of things. Miram , who was the sister of Moses tried, and was strongly corrected for suggesting her own thoughts over God's thoughts. She did not change the order of things, because of the "curse" of the Law. However, in our day and time, since Christ dying on the cross. Christ has become the end of the curse of the law, and woman will try God , without receiving the curse that Miram did. But, there will come a day, that God will judge a woman according to how they stood for God , in His order of things. Man will be judged likewise for his stand , according to God's order also !

    All these verses are dealing with God's order of things. God does not change, and God made woman for specific purposes. God did not make woman to teach , nor usurp authority over a man.

    We are not to undo what God has done. God has an order that should not be altered in any way.

    A great thread to start by someone, would be on 'how' God used women throughout the Word.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  7. BWSmith

    BWSmith Biblical Scholar

    367
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    s66 wrote:
    > it is not what we think that counts. It is what God thinks.

    So what you think is what God thinks and what we think is not what God thinks?

    > Read this from the Word of God:
    > 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

    This is Paul talking to Timothy in Ephesus 2,000 years ago. How is that equivalent to God talking to us today?

    > If God's Word said otherwise, that would be my direction of thought. Is the servant wiser or greater than his master? One thing I do know for sure, my Master is God. If ever I say I know better than God, I must have gone mad.

    Again, this is Paul talking to Timothy. It's in our Bibles as a witness to how the Holy Spirit has moved authoritative Christians in the past, not as marching orders for us today. Wasn't the law nailed to the cross? Then why is it being replaced by a "new law" of Paul?

    > Now, I have sat under the teaching of women and gained much.

    Are you male? How can you justify being taught by a woman?

    > But I am very discerning in what I believe, listen to and who I allow to teach me.

    I would suggest that you be even more discerning in who you allow to teach you.
    ;-)

    > Look at Kay Arthur, she is a great teacher, and she believes a woman should not pastor a church. Pastorship goes beyond mere teaching.

    If someone came to be saved through hearing a woman pastor preach, should we rejoice?

    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28
     
  8. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
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    BWSmith:

    You last comments and my reply to them >

    If someone came to be saved through hearing a woman pastor preach, should we rejoice? No ! Your adding confusion to the topic here ! The topic is not about salvation, but about the topic of , if a woman can be a pastor. Salvation is one thing. And a woman claiming to be a pastor is another !

    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

    This verse is talking "about" the body of Christ, but the "apostles", "teachers", "evangilists", "prophets", "pastors" come not from the body, but the building - Ephesians 2:20 & 21 & 22.

    They are "given" -- too --- the body of Christ, so that the (the body of Christ) does not get blown about with every wind of doctrine ! > Ephesians 4:8 , 10 thru 16.

    And God is a God that changes not ! God has always give authority to the man. Christ is the head of the body, and he is the chief corner stone of the building, and the apostles and prophets make up the foundation of truth, and they are "all" men !


    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  9. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.


    This is the natural order of things. It is not an issue of importance or equality or who is superior, but order as ordained by God. Women are commanded to be submissive to their husbands and are not called to be pastors or leaders in the church. This still applies today. This used to upset me, but as I grew in the Lord I began to understand that it isn't about God preferring men and I began to enjoy my position as a woman who is a helper to my husband who is the leader of our family. I know of a few great women teachers, but they teach other women. I find it rather disturbing to see women leading their families as it is not as God has designed.
    God is no respecter of persons. Women are just as important as men, we just have different roles. I am in everyway equal to my husband, but I find joy in submitting to him as God has commanded.
     
  10. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

    +3
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Hi, Mandy ~ I see the Word of God is your authority (as it is mine), and you have divided the Word rightly with the correct understanding in context.

    Bravo to you!!! Keep on posting.

    Blessings,

    Pat
     
  11. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    Mandy,

    i understand what you are saying. However what about the many leaders of churches during the time of the early church and in the NT? Many of the early churches were at home and were led by women. Now I think that men should be the pastors of churches. That men should be deacons and elders. However I have no problem with women teachers, preachers (just the preaching part), ministers, evangelists, etc. I think that this view is shown all through out the Bible. Women were leaders and teachers but I do not see a case where they were priests or deacons, or pastors.

    Blackhaw6
     
  12. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    I don't see that women in the NT were leaders, but co-laborers for the gospel. I believe that women are as important as men in the body of Christ, but were not created to be leaders over men.



    Tts 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

    Tts 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

    Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

    Tts 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

    Tts 2:5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

    1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
     
  13. VeraciousMaven

    VeraciousMaven Jesus Saves!

    753
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    I think women are allowed to lead the service if a man isn't "bold" enough to do it. Paul sent letters to women who headed churches, so where is the conflict?
     
  14. Redeemed1

    Redeemed1 Passionate Worshiper

    711
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    I too agree that women are not to hold a position of spiritual authority over men, and therefore they should not pastor a church. I believe it was God's intent that men and women should both be involved in the leading, caretaking, and growth of the Body of Christ, however it is clear that the order of authority set by God is that of the man having the headship.

    That said, I also am of the opinion that the Church has been lax in training up its men to take the leadership position and to lead rightly. I once heard a famous pastor/teacher say: "Men, if you refuse to take the spiritual leadership of your home, your wife will be forced to. She will resent it...but she will do it." Perhaps the same could be said of the Church. I do think tho, that of late God has been bringing a change in this condition. I believe that for the past several years, God has been calling His men to rise up and take their rightful position in their homes and in the Church. Now its a matter of getting the women who have had to hold the leadership reins to now let them go! That's my opinion...nothing else.
     
  15. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    Redeemed1,

    I agree with you that the reason women have taken up positions of leadership in the church is because men have not done it. Also that the same reason has caused women to take leadership roles in homes. Where men should be leading. I do not know what I exactly think about the statement that " Now its a matter of getting the women who have had to hold the leadership reins to now let them go!" I agree with you on the points before but I do not know if I can say to a woman pastor that she must give up her position even if it was my place to do it.

    Blackhaw6
     
  16. snw7

    snw7 New Member

    99
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    i'd have to agree that it is the primary responsibility of the male to be in the leadership role and for the women to be co-laborers. however, if a woman is in the leadership role, i don't think you continue in error in light of the scripture if you are going to assume your responsibilities in the New Testament church as God intended.

    i don't think i quite follow what you are in disagrement with Blackhaw6.

    just my $.02
    shawn
     
  17. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    +2
    That is correct "for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Though we all have different functions in our various churches as members, we all make up one body.
     
  18. tericl2

    tericl2 A Work in Progress

    741
    +6
    Christian
    Hello all.
    I believe the Word is fairly implicit about the place of women in the church. That place is not in a leadership or authoritative capacity.
    I Timothy 3: 2 "Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife...." (NIV)
    Overseer, in the Greek culture, was used for a presiding official of a civic or religious organization. It is also used interchangeably with elder in the Jewish culture of the time, which has the same basic definition. So, the logical leap here is that to be an overseer (leader or official of the church) you must be a man, i.e. - "husband of one wife".
    You can also see this in I Timothy 3:12 "A deacon must be the husband of but one wife...." (NIV) Actually deacon, in the Greek, means "one who serves". But it is an example, since they helped free the elders up for the ministry, and also since elders and deacons are the only two offices of the local church mentioned in the NT.
    And again in Titus 1:6 "An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife...."
    This, taken with the other verses already put forth seem to make a pretty good case for what God thinks on the subject.
     
  19. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    snw7,

    I am not disagreeing with anything really. I just am thinking of the woman pastor. She has served in the church as a pastor for many years and now I come and say you can't be a pastor? I just think that a little tact and a little understanding is in order. I just do not know what to do with these pastors. This is all hypothetical though but how would you (if you were in charge of fixing the problem) tell the women pastors? I do not know how I would do it or if I would do it really. It is a nonessential issue so would fixing the problem do more harm than good? I think it would take a real wise man to accomplish this correctly or better yet a man who has God's wisdom.

    Blackhaw6
     
  20. WhitBit

    WhitBit Mirror of His Heart

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    Paul didn't have any inhibitions of telling the churches he had a bone to pick with them...but I daresay that a lot of prayer and thought went into his approach.

    I understand hesitation with the situation...but if men haven't been stepping up, then there's a weakness in the congregation that needs to be addressed as well - and just because you're concerned about hurting her feelings or upsetting the church, it isn't just cause to not bring it up. If we're to assume that God intended for men to be the spiritual leaders and the authority of the church, then more problems are bound to erupt later on...I've seen such problems firsthand in my own family, I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that the sexes each have their own roles for a reason - and the Scripture is pretty explicit in both the New and Old Testament about it.

    Love and prayer are the only things I can suggest, Black...If she's the *obviously* strong Christian woman that is capable of becoming such a bold leader, she will understand and want to follow God's Will :D
     
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