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Can we know (yet)?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by AdB, Nov 12, 2021.

  1. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    Just a thought...

    If we look at historically fulfilled prophesies it seems that many of these prophesies could not be understood clearly before the time of the actual fulfilment. Yet when that time came it became overwhelmingly clear what the prophesy was about. There are of course prophesies where the actual meaning is quite literally spelled out, so those are outside the scope of this proposition. But for the "non explained" I get the impression that God keeps these in a haze on purpose to have everyone standing in awe once the true meaning of the prophesy is revealed.

    In Acts 8:26-39 we read about the Ethiopian eunuch who was diligently reading Isaiah 53:1-8 bit he didn't have a clue what it was about. But once Philip told him about the crucifiction of Jesus, it all became so clear, that the eunuch asked to be baptised right there on the spot!

    Could this also be the case with Revelation?
    So if the described events are yet to happen, that we will never be able to have a clear understanding about it?
    And on the other hand, if the described events have already happened, or are happening as we speak, that it should be overwhelmingly clear which historical events are being described?

    I do believe that even if the events are yet to happen that we should be studying the texts, just like the Ethiopian eunuch did with Isaiah 53, but we will simply never be able to really know what it will turn out to be.

    Does my proposition hold or are there cases where a prophesy was fully clear long before it came to pass? Of course prophesies where the actual meaning is literally spelled out like many of Daniel's prophesies don't count

    Also a question for Amils, if the events in Revelation are happening right now, why are the historical events that are attributed to these events so poorly aligning?
     
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  2. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    When future prophecy begins to be fulfilled, there will be no doubt.
     
  3. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    what prophecies are you referring to?
     
  4. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The prophecies of Revelation are able to be understood, and do align with history as was prophesied.
     
  5. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    and knowledge will increase ....

    poorly aligning? Says who?
     

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  6. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    Then why is there still so much discord about the meaning of the book?
    I mentioned Isaiah 53 as reference because within Christianity there is no doubt about the meaning thereof, while it was not understood before Jesus was crucified...
     
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  7. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    The interpretations of the book of Revelation relies on other truths found in His Word .... and people come from those .... leads them down one path or another.

    It has been understood from the beginning ..... better understood as time went on/goes on. (and knowledge will increase) ... we live in a wonderful time .... as far as access to knowledge (of God) goes along with the benefit of history.

    Geneis 3:15
    KJ21
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel.”
     
  8. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    You're trying to say that the understanding is just fine, but it isn't. You didn't answer my question.
    I must say that the chart that you provided is looking much better than what I've seen so far, I'll have a closer look at that once I have time for that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2021
  9. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Because satan is counterfeiting the word of GOD

    Remember what the word says few will find the straight and narrow path but many will take the broad road to perdition

    it is talking about those that claim to be Christians
     
  10. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    Bit why didn't satan succeed in that aim regarding for instance Isaiah 53?
     
  11. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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  12. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The book of Daniel was sealed so that key prophecies of Revelation could not be understood until a future time. It was not meant for Daniel's day, nor for him to understand completely what it meant.

    Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.​

    Prophecy is understood, and unfolds, according to God's timeline, not ours.

    Satan is only allowed to do what God allows him to do. Here are a few examples:

    Job 2:6 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.​

    1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

    Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
    Jesus was prophesied as early as Genesis 3, at the fall of Adam and Eve.

    Genesis 3:14-15 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her [a]seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Footnotes (Amplified Bible)
    a. Genesis 3:15 Many consider this verse the protevangelium, the first announcement of the gospel. This is the first prophecy about the Messiah (Christ), who through His death on the cross and resurrection would ultimately defeat Satan, the power behind the serpent, with a death blow. See Isaiah 9:6; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:31; Romans 16:20; Galatians 4:4; Revelation 12:17.

    The footnote above references Matthew 1:23, a very clear prophecy of the coming Messiah:

    Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Regarding Isaiah 53, it's not that the prophecy wasn't understood, it's that men didn't believe, because of their own sinful corruption:

    Matthew 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death.​

    Matthew 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death.​

    Many did believe in Him.

    John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.​

    The purpose of prophecy is so that we can know the times we live in. The understanding of which is always timely, according to God's purposes.

    1 Thessalonians 5:4-6 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

    Matthew 24:15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand). Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
    Conclusion: The corruption of sin causes prophecy to be misinterpreted. The truth can be known through prayerful study of scripture, with the help of the Holy Spirit. From the time of the first prophecy in Genesis, until the second coming of Jesus, the truth has been, is, and will continue to be preached according to God's will, by people of God who have the Spirit of Prophecy.

    Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.​
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2021
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  13. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Active Member

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    Yes, Jesus went on record as saying that unnatural emphasis on knowing details of the future is a distraction away from the important elements of living holy lives and helping others get there too. We are to be concerned about spirituality, and not prophetic calendars so much.

    I do like a certain amount of organization of prophetic timetables, but not with all of the detail involved. I don't believe Revelation was meant to be a list of consecutive prophecies so that like Nostradamus we can see and recognize each thing as it happens in order. Rather, the focus of Revelation is on the moral need to prepare, to maintain a proper Christian expectation about what we can control and what we can't control.

    Several of the visions are telling the same story in different ways, with different emphases. The imagery is prolepsis, using symbols that call the reader to mind things having to do with Christ's Coming and Kingdom.

    Some details, however, are essential, to keep things from becoming so vague and so bland that we can make it mean whatever we want. We have to take literally Christ's coming Kingdom of 1000 years, I believe. We have to literally believe Christ will come and will literally bind Satan to prevent international war on earth for a thousand years.

    Anyway, I think you're on the right track with this. I'm just adding my two cents worth.
     
  14. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I view the Seals, trumpets and Bowls of Revelation as a sequence of events. None of them are parallel, or match any other one.
    And to think they are all fulfilled, excepting the first five Seals, is wrong. There is nothing in the historical record to match what is described, leading up to the battle of Armageddon and the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
     
  15. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Must be a futurist thing. Here I was thinking that Revelation was a part of scripture. As such, we know it has a job to do.

    2 Timothy 3
    10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    If Revelation is full of weird imagery we can't possibly understand until after the event, what good has it been for the equipping of the saints for the last 2000 years and counting?

    You're proving my point for me. Revelation 1:3

    "blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it"
    That is, he wants them to meditate on it and obey it. How do you obey something written about and to people thousands of years later? Forget that - how do you even understand it? Imagine getting this message?

    "On Mars most red in the year 4000 AD, the Zorg will Zazzle the Marines in Valles Marineris - and the smoke will rise to the heavens."

    Now obey this!

    See, if the command is not to you or about you - you cannot obey it. Period. There's nothing to take to heart, nothing to understand about you and your suffering. So how on earth do you obey this? You can barely even comprehend it - and even if you could - it's not to your and your situation or even about you. John's generation couldn't obey it. Not only that, what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years - it's not about or to them - so how do they benefit? If anything makes me reject futurist readings of Revelation it is that it would render the majority of Revelation as utterly useless to Christians across the last 2000 years - and do nothing except confuse us and make us argue. That's simply NOT in the mission statement of Scripture as we read it in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

    But if it's to John's generation of Christians about to suffer Rome's persecution, and as I read it and being to understand the symbolism, there's a lot there to learn from for us today. We're not suffering Rome - but then we don't have to worry about meat sacrificed to idols as the Corinthian church either. So how do we understand and obey these verses today? Good hermeneutics. Because we learn what it meant to them, and the principles behind it, to understand what it means to us today - just as we do the rest of the whole bible.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2021
  16. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    I think prophetic texts have a lot more to it than just the foretelling part... In this post I am pondering specifically on this foretelling, but like @RandyPMW said, there is spiritual truth in every bit of scripture.
    I actually even think it might be that some prophesies are applicable to multiple events.
     
  17. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Yes, you've got me in, I think I know where you're going....

    Oh no. I think you missed it.

    Daniel's scroll was unsealed in Revelation 5 as the gospel itself. More on that below - but basically ALL OT prophecies find their fulfilment in Jesus in eschatological tension. That is, there are a few pictures of the new earth in the OT, but basically the NT fulfils all OT prophecy. The only thing left? Judgement Day and the new earth.

    Anything else starts to minimise the gospel.

    I have become convinced that the bigger our futurist expectations are, the smaller the gospel gets in our thinking, in our practical theology, and in our emotional life. We're like, "Yeah, the gospel is a bit necessary isn't it - so that all this cool futurist prophecy can be decoded right?"

    It's a bit sad really. Good Reformed Amil preaching makes the gospel so much bigger and more amazing - and motivates us to get out there and get busy with the job. Futurist's often cloister themselves into little communes to live out their apocalyptic fantasies - like Jonestown, or Waco, Texas.

    MORE ON DANIEL
    I wonder if you've ever noticed that Daniel's 'scrolls' are actually unrolled and explained in Revelation 5 - and as such their 'mystery' is also unpacked in Colossians, Ephesians, and in a way Acts?

    Let's start with the 'mystery' Paul speaks of.
    Colossians 1:26 "the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people."

    2:2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    4:3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.

    What is this great mystery? Ephesians shows us it is Covenant Theology - that is - how the OT promises are fulfilled in the NT. And it's all about the Kingdom of God moving from being exclusively Hebrew and Jewish to including the gentiles. (Futurists call Covenant Theology 'replacement theology' because they don't like the way it robs modern day Israel of many theological or eschatological importance. 1948? Covenant theology says "Meh!")

    When Paul speaks of “mystery” in the book of Colossians, he doesn't mean something impossible to understand. Instead, Paul describes mystery as a truth which was previously hidden but has now been made known by God. It's the indwelling of Christ, the believer’s hope of glory. Paul outlines the broad contours of biblical mystery in Colossians 1:26 when he characterizes this doctrine as something that “has been hidden for ages” but is “now disclosed to the Lord’s people.” Mystery in this sense is synonymous with revelation. Christ Himself is the mystery. It is the revelation of the person and work of God’s Son who is also Israel’s Messiah.

    This mystery also includes a revelation of the extent of Christ’s work. In Ephesians 3:3–4, Paul writes of the mystery made known to him by revelation, which he also refers to as “the mystery of Christ.” This mystery was not made known to previous generations. But it was revealed by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles - those who first preached the gospel. It was that God's kingdom was going to explode out of the confines of one ethnic group - the literal sons of Abraham - and include ALL who trusted in Jesus death and resurrection. Both Jew and Gentile were now included in God's kingdom and this good news energized the growth of the early church and should motivate us today.


    Ephesians 3
    "Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
    7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    What hints do we have about these mysteries in the OT? We have all the types of the Prophets, Priest and King that Jesus threefold ministry would fulfil. We have the law, sacrifice and temple all meeting in his body. But what how we understand the mystery of God's people and the times they will be saved in?

    Daniel 12 says: "He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand."

    In Acts 2, Peter calls Pentecost a sign that Joel's "Last Days" are being fulfilled. Hebrews 1:1 also says the gospel events ushered in the Last Days. They were the times of the end - 2000 years ago! They were receiving the great mysteries unveiled in Jesus, that both Jew and Greek would be together in one holy nation through God - the church!

    Revelation 5 shows us that only Jesus death opens the way for Daniel's scroll to be unsealed.

    And they sang a new song, saying:
    “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”

    As 1 Peter 2:9 says: "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

    What does all this have to do with eschatology? While some futurists look for various scrolls that are going to be unsealed, the New Testament is clear. Daniel's scroll is unsealed in Jesus, and shows how Australians and Austrians and even Americans can be in God's kingdom. He did this in the first century.
    This is all highly symbolic, and shows that Revelation really is a sermon about the wonders of the gospel and how it applies to ALL Christians in all ages. The scroll was opened by Jesus death and resurrection, and the seals break open as a result. What follows is a general description of what life will be like during and after John's generation - 2000 years and counting - and the future hope we have that Jesus will one day return and surprise all God's people.
     
  18. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Why are you referring to satan when Isaiah 53 is a Messiah prophecy?

    Isaiah is known as the Gospel prophet. In fact, some Bible expositors have called his book the "Gospel of Isaiah." Why is that? In the book of Isaiah you will find many prophecies regarding the Messiah. And every single one of these prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Perhaps one of the greatest prophecies regarding the Messiah is found in Isaiah 53. In that chapter the sufferings of Jesus were given in striking detail 700 years before the time of Jesus.

    High and Lifted Up | Isaiah the Prophet | King Uzziah | Earthly Sanctuary
     
  19. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Daniel 9:27 KJV
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week/years he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    This has already been fulfilled as it is the last week of the 70 week/year prophecy which is the first 70 weeks/years of the 2300 year prophecy. Jesus was crucified 3.5 years ( in the midst of the week) from his baptism by John, his death was that of the sacrificial lamb ( he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease) for all man kinds sin, thus the sacrificial ceremony of the temple was done away with as a foreshadow for the forgiveness of sin by faith and replaced with the blood of Jesus.
    Romans 3:24 KJV
    Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    Romans 6:23 KJV
    For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Luke 21:34-36 KJV

    Jesus warned His disciples over and over again to watch and pray that they would not be deceived. The last days of earth’s history will be treacherous. Our only safety is in knowing Jesus and His Word intimately. Jesus’ warning is for us (is being fulfilled as we speak)

    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

    (Luke 21: 34-36).KJV
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


    Matthew 24 KJV
    (being fulfilled as we speak)

    The Scripture gives many signs that will tell us when the return of Christ is near. These signs are prevalent in our world today:

    • An increase in knowledge (Daniel 12:4).
    • An increase in demonic activity (Revelation 16:13-14, 1 Timothy 4:1-7)
    • An increase in lawlessness (2 Timothy 3:1-7)
    • Departure from the faith (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
    • Rise of false teachings such as evolution (2 Peter 3:3-7)
    • Rise of false Christs (Matthew 24:4-24)
    • Increase in traffic and modern transportation (Nahum 2:4)
    • Poverty and economic instability (James 5:3-4)

    Matthew 7:13-15 King James Version
    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    According to to the word of GOD most of Human kind will be lost to the deceit of satan from Eden to the close of probation
     
  20. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    I started about why there is so much discord about Revelation.
    You answered "Because satan is counterfeiting the word of GOD" >> so this is the WHOLE scripture...
    I then asked why no discord regarding Isaiah 53.
    You then ask what satan has to do with Isaiah 53...
     
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