Can we fully grasp the nature of the Trinity?

[armothe]

Can we comprehend the Trinity with 100% accuracy?

Feel free to vote and post your reasons/thoughts in this thread.

-A

 

[1John5:3]

Can you fully comprehend your own nature?
(Not to say yea or nay on the nature of the "trinity.")

 

[MsAnne]

There are several things about the omniscience of God that are difficult to grasp. The nice part is..... I don't have to. I have a God that takes care of that for me.

 

[Acceptance]

That's why it's a mystery

 

[armothe]

That's why it's a mystery

Then my question would be:

Because it is such a mystery, and most people here seem to agree that we cannot fully comprehend the Trinity..

Why has it been made a required doctrine in order to be considered a Christian?

-A

 

[Philip]

Because it is such a mystery, and most people here seem to agree that we cannot fully comprehend the Trinity..

Why has it been made a required doctrine in order to be considered a Christian?

From my point of view, the answer is in the authority of the Church. The Orthodox Church accepts the doctrine of the Trinity, and I submit to the Church. I accept the teaching without fully understanding it, trusting that the Church is correct.

 

[armothe]

From my point of view, the answer is in the authority of the Church. The Orthodox Church accepts the doctrine of the Trinity, and I submit to the Church. I accept the teaching without fully understanding it, trusting that the Church is correct.

But the church is you..and me...and other Christians. We are all collectively the church.
If you are speaking of the church as being the church authorities (pope, priests, ministers..etc), what do they have that you don't? We all read the same Bible.

-A

 

[Philip]

But the church is you..and me...and other Christians. We are all collectively the church.

We are not collectively the visible Church.

If you are speaking of the church as being the church authorities what do they have that you don't?

I am speaking of the visible Church -- the congergation gathered around the bishop in the unity of the Eucharist.

We all read the same Bible.

Do we? More importantly, do we read it the same way?

 

[rnmomof7]

Can we comprehend the Trinity with 100% accuracy?

Feel free to vote and post your reasons/thoughts in this thread.

-A

You do not believe in the trinity right?

I think I remember you saying at one time that the holy Spirit is not a person in the trinity but a force, right?


I believe the scriptures teach us the HS is a person with thoughts, feelings and a purpose ..this is revealed in the scripture.

 

[rnmomof7]

Then my question would be:

Because it is such a mystery, and most people here seem to agree that we cannot fully comprehend the Trinity..

Why has it been made a required doctrine in order to be considered a Christian?

-A

Would you please explain how electricity gets from your switch to your lamp, or how the universe remains a star system that stays in homeostasis in spite of dying stars?

Why did you wake up this morning?

What will you be doing in 30 years ?

The world is full of questions most of us can not answer.

We live in a three dimension world , it is beyond our thought what eternity might look like.

On the day we enter,we will do an Ahhh Haaaaa of course

 

[armothe]

Would you please explain how electricity gets from your switch to your lamp

Three feet of 12 guage non-metallic sheathed cable.

Why did you wake up this morning?

To make it to work on time (as opposed to waking up in the afternoon).

What will you be doing in 30 years?

Diving in the Maldives.

or how the universe remains a star system that stays in homeostasis in spite of dying stars?

I do not know.

The world is full of questions most of us can not answer.

Yeah, but I don't insult people or call them a heretic if they disagree with me on any of the above.

-A

 

[armothe]

You do not believe in the trinity right?

Quit trying to get me kicked out of the forums.

I think I remember you saying at one time that the holy Spirit is not a person in the trinity but a force, right?


I believe the scriptures teach us the HS is a person with thoughts, feelings and a purpose ..this is revealed in the scripture.

As I've asked several other people, please show me scripture that states the Holy Spirit is a "person".

The HS is definitely of God, a part of God, and can be considered God. The HS is a powerful force in scripture. However I have issues regarding the traditional beliefs regarding the Holy Spirit.

Still.....are you going to fault me because I admit I don't fully understand the Trinity, and refuse to blindly accept another man's understanding of it?

-A

 

[Acceptance]

I too would be interested to read the scripture that says the holy Spirit is a person.

 

[rnmomof7]

Quit trying to get me kicked out of the forums.

As I've asked several other people, please show me scripture that states the Holy Spirit is a "person".

The HS is definitely of God, a part of God, and can be considered God. The HS is a powerful force in scripture. However I have issues regarding the traditional beliefs regarding the Holy Spirit.

Still.....are you going to fault me because I admit I don't fully understand the Trinity, and refuse to blindly accept another man's understanding of it?

-A

To be a Christian you need to have a belief in the trinity ..pure and simple.

Christianity calls the Holy Spirit a person, not a force.


The Holy Spirit demonstrates that He is a personal being by exercising volition (Acts 15:28; Rom. 8:26; John 16:8), emotion (Eph. 4:30), and intelligence (Rom. 8:27), [only a personal being can be lied to];


Matt. 12:31 [only a personal being can be blasphemed]). Thus the overwhelming weight of Scriptural evidence proves that there is one God and that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God! To deny this biblical truth leads to the unitarian heresy of arianism.



1Jo 2:27**
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.




*
Jhn 14:26**
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

**
*
Jhn 16:13**
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


1Jo 5:7**
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Mat 28:19**
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


It seems that Jesus believed that the Holy Spirit was a "he" (a person )

Now of course you are free to believe that Jesus was confused or that he did not know or that He lied..But I would not do something so rash:>)

 

[armothe]

To be a Christian you need to have a belief in the trinity ..pure and simple.

I have a belief that there are indeed three definitive aspects to "God" mentioned in the Bible.
There is Jehovah (God the Father)
There is Christ (Jehovah's arm - Isaiah 53:1; 59:15-16)
There is the Holy Spirit (The breath/spirit/force- or ruach - of Jehovah - Nehemiah 9:30; 1 Samuel 19:20; Numbers 24:2-3; Numbers 11:25-30; John 20:22)

I had more typed up but I decided to keep it simple

-A

 

[rnmomof7]

I have a belief that there are indeed three definitive aspects to "God" mentioned in the Bible.
There is Jehovah (God the Father)
There is Christ (Jehovah's arm - Isaiah 53:1; 59:15-16)
There is the Holy Spirit (The breath/spirit/force- or ruach - of Jehovah - Nehemiah 9:30; 1 Samuel 19:20; Numbers 24:2-3; Numbers 11:25-30; John 20:22)

I had more typed up but I decided to keep it simple

-A

I think we cleared this up on another thread right?

 

[Acceptance]

It seems that Jesus believed that the Holy Spirit was a "he" (a person )

Just because something is assigned a gender does not make it a human. Dogs come in 'he' and 'she' yet we know the Holy Spirit is not a dog. In the Spanish language even inanimate objects such as a plate are assigned a gender, but that doesn't make the plate a person either.

By this same idea, you must believe that God the Father was also a person, as Jesus referred to the Father as a 'he'...however this also is not the case.

That is the amazing thing about Christ...He was both man and God. And that characteristic is unique to Him alone.

 

[rnmomof7]

Just because something is assigned a gender does not make it a human. Dogs come in 'he' and 'she' yet we know the Holy Spirit is not a dog. In the Spanish language even inanimate objects such as a plate are assigned a gender, but that doesn't make the plate a person either.

By this same idea, you must believe that God the Father was also a person, as Jesus referred to the Father as a 'he'...however this also is not the case.

That is the amazing thing about Christ...He was both man and God. And that characteristic is unique to Him alone.

Well Jesus called the Holy Spirit He..I trust that Jesus knows the correct assignment :>)

The important thing is Jesus ascribed to the Holy Spirit an individual part in the trinity ..that he is not an it , or a force.

Of course there is a reason for Jesus to call God the Father as that is what He is.

He is not the mother of Jesus , It was the HS of God that impregnated Her.

I have had too much of the 'gender neutral 'stuff that is infiltrating the church .

When the apostles asked jesus HOW they should pray..He did not say "father/mother god " or my mother in heaven ..or "hey you "

He said pray like this ..OUR FATHER

That is good enough for me :>)

 

[Acceptance]

Well Jesus called the Holy Spirit He..I trust that Jesus knows the correct assignment :>)

The important thing is Jesus ascribed to the Holy Spirit an individual part in the trinity ..that he is not an it , or a force.

Of course there is a reason for Jesus to call God the Father as that is what He is.

He is not the mother of Jesus , It was the HS of God that impregnated Her.

I have had too much of the 'gender neutral 'stuff that is infiltrating the church .

When the apostles asked jesus HOW they should pray..He did not say "father/mother god " or my mother in heaven ..or "hey you "

He said pray like this ..OUR FATHER

That is good enough for me :>)

I think maybe I didn't communicate my point well...let me try one more time. Just because Jesus called the Holy Spirit "He", doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is a person. I'm wondering where it says that the Holy Spirit is part "man". I'm nearly positive it doesn't. I completely agree that the 'gender neutral' stuff is silly...God is our Father. But just because something has a gender assigned to it, that doesn't make it a human being.

Does anyone else follow what I'm saying? Or can anyone phrase it better?

 

[rnmomof7]

I think maybe I didn't communicate my point well...let me try one more time. Just because Jesus called the Holy Spirit "He", doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is a person. I'm wondering where it says that the Holy Spirit is part "man". I'm nearly positive it doesn't. I completely agree that the 'gender neutral' stuff is silly...God is our Father. But just because something has a gender assigned to it, that doesn't make it a human being.

Does anyone else follow what I'm saying? Or can anyone phrase it better?

Did Jesus lie? No one is saying he is "part man"
The Holy Spirit demonstrates that He is a personal being by exercising volition (Acts 15:28; Rom. 8:26; John 16:8), emotion (Eph. 4:30), and intelligence (Rom. 8:27), [only a personal being can be lied to]; Matt. 12:31 [only a personal being can be blasphemed]). Thus the overwhelming weight of Scriptural evidence proves that there is one God and that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God! So He can be called a "person" as the church has done for hundreds of years. It is a word used to distinguish that he has individual existence within the Godhead .

If Jesus did not view the Holy Spirit as a person why did He call Him one?

Is the heavenly Father a person of the trinity?


This terminology is not arbitrary . It was revelation under the Holy Spirit from the earliest Church councils.

This is the confession used by my church.
You will find similar confessions by the theologians and Biblical scholars of all Christian churches

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646)


In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]




Scripture Proof Texts



[38] 1 John v. 7; Matt. iii. 16, 17; Matt. xxviii. 19; 2 Cor. xiii. 14; [39] John i. 14, 18; [40] John xv. 26; Gal. iv. 6.




Having before shown that there is but one living and true God, and that his essential properties embrace all perfections, this section asserts in addition --

1. That Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are each equally that one God; and that the indivisible divine essence and all divine perfections and prerogatives belong to each in the same sense and degree.

2. That these titles, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are not different names of the same person in different relations, but of different persons.

3. That these three divine persons are distinguished from one another by certain persona1 properties, and are revealed in a certain order of subsistence and of operation.

These propositions embrace the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (three in unity), which is no part of natural religion, though most clearly revealed in the inspired Scriptures -- indistinctly, perhaps, in the Old Testament, but with especial definiteness in the New Testament.

1. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are each equally the one God; and the indivisible divine essence and all divine perfections and prerogatives belong to each in the same sense and degree.

Since there is but one God, the infinite and the absolute First Cause, his essence, being spiritual, cannot be divided. If then Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are that one God, they must each equally consist of that same essence. And since the attributes of God are the inherent properties of his essence, they are inseparable from that essence; and it follows that if Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, consist of the same numerical essence, they must have the same identical attributes in common -- that is, there is common to them the one intelligence and the one will, etc.

The Scriptures are full of the evidences of this fundamental truth. It has never been questioned whether the Father is God. That the Son is the true God is proved by the following considerations: --

(1.) Christ existed before he was born of the Virgin. (a) He was with the Father "before the world was." John viii. 58; xvii. 5. (b) "He came into the world"--" He came down from heaven." John iii. 13; xvi. 28.

(2.) All the names and titles of God are constantly applied to Christ, and to none others except to the Father and the Spirit: as Jehovah, Jer. xxiii. 6; -- mighty God, everlasting Father, Isa, ix. 6; -- God, John i. 1; Heb. i. 8; -- God over all, Rom. ix. 5; -- the true God, and eternal life, 1 John v. 20; -- the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty, Rev. i. 8.

(3.) All divine attributes are predicated of him: Eternity, John viii. 58; xvii. 5; Rev. i. 8; xxii. 13; -- immutability, Heb. i. 10, 11; xiii. 8; -- omnipresence, Matt. xviii. 20; John iii. 13; -- omniscience, Matt. xi. 27; John ii. 24, 25; Rev. ii. 28; -- omnipotence, John v. 17; Heb. i. 3.

(4.) The Scriptures attribute all Divine works to Christ: Creation, John i. 3 -- 10; Col. i. 10, 17; -- preservation and providential government, Heb. i. 3; Col. i. 17; Matt. xxviii. 18; -- the final judgment, John v. 22; Matt. xxv. 31, 32; 2 Cor. v. 10; -- giving eternal life, John x. 28; -- sending the Holy Ghost, John xvi. 7; -- sanctification, Eph. v. 25 -- 27.

(5.) The Scriptures declare that divine worship should be paid to him: Heb. i. 6; Rev. i. 5, 6; v. 11, 12; 1 Cor. i. 2; John v. 23. Men are to be baptized into the name of Jesus, as well as into the names of the Father and the Holy Ghost. The grace of Jesus is invoked in the apostolical benediction.

That the Holy Ghost is the true God is proved in a similar manner.

(1.) He is called God. What the Spirit says Jehovah says. Compare Isa. vi. 8, 9, with Acts xxviii. 25, 26; and Jer. xxxi. 33 with Heb. x. 15, 16. To lie to the Holy Ghost is to lie to God. Acts v. 3, 4.

(2.) Divine perfections are ascribed to him: Omniscience, 1 Cor. ii. 10, ll; -- omnipresence, Ps. cxxxix. 7; -- omnipotence, Luke i. 35; Rom. viii. 11.

(3.) Divine works are attributed to him: Creation, Job xxvi. 13; Ps. civ. 30; -- miracles, 1 Cor. xii. 9 -- 11; -- regeneration, John iii. 6; Titus iii. 5.

(4.) Divine worship is to be paid to him. His gracious influences are invoked in the apostolical benediction. 2 Cor. xiii. 14. We are baptized into his name. Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is never forgiven. Matt. xii. 31, 32.

2. These titles, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are not the names of the same person in different relations, but of different persons.

Since there is but one indivisible and inalienable spiritual essence, which is common to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and since they have in common one infinite intelligence, power, will, etc., when we say they are distinct persons we do not mean that one is as separate from the other as one human person is from every other. Their mode of subsistence in the one substance must ever continue to us a profound mystery, as it transcends all analogy. All that is revealed to us is, that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, stand so distinguished and related that,--

(1.) They use mutually the personal pronouns I, thou, he, when speaking to or about each other. Thus Christ continually addresses the Father, and speaks of the Father and of the Holy Ghost: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter," John xiv. 16; "And now, 0 Father, glorify thou me with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was," John xvii. 5. Thus Christ speaks of the Holy Ghost: "I will send him;" "He shall testify of me;" " Whom the Father will send in my name," John xiv. 26, and xv. 26.

(2.) That they mutually love one another, act upon and through one another, and take counsel together. The Father sends the Son, John xvii. 3; and the Father and Son send the Spirit, Ps. civ. 30. The Father giveth commandment to the Son, John x. 18; the Spirit "speaks not of himself "--" he testifies of" and "glorifies" Christ. John xv. 26; xvi. 13-15.

(3.) That they are eternally mutually related as Father and Son and Spirit. That is, the Father is the Father of the Son, and the Son the Son of the Father, and the Spirit the Spirit of the Father and of the Son.

(4.) That they work together in a perfectly harmonious economy of operations upon the creation; -- the Father creating and sitting supreme in the general administration; the Son becoming incarnate in human nature, and, as the Theanthropos, discharging the functions of mediatorial prophet, priest, and king; the Holy Ghost making his grace omnipresent, and applying it to the souls and bodies of his members: the Father the absolute origin and source of life and law; the Son the revealer; the Holy Ghost the executor.

There are a number of Scripture passages in which all the three persons are set forth as distinct and yet as divine: Matt. xxviii. 19; 2 Cor. xiii. 14; Matt. iii. 13-17; John xv. 26, etc.; 1 John v. 7.

3. These three divine persons are distinguished from one another by certain personal properties, and are revealed in a certain order of subsistence and of operation.

The "attributes" of God are the properties of the divine essence, and therefore common to each of the three persons, who are "the same in substance," and therefore "equal in power and glory." The "properties" of each divine person, on the other hand, are those peculiar modes of personal subsistence, and that peculiar order of operation, which distinguish each from the others, and determine the relation of each to the others. This is chiefly expressed to us by the personal names by which they are revealed. The peculiar personal property of the first person is expressed by the title Father. As a person he is eternally the Father of his only begotten Son. The peculiar personal property of the second person is expressed by the title Son. As a person he is eternally the only begotten Son of the Father, and hence the express image of his person, and the eternal Word in the beginning with God. The peculiar property of the third person is expressed by the title Spirit. This cannot express his essence, because his essence is also the essence of the Father and the Son. It must express his eternal personal relation to the other divine persons, because he is as a person constantly designated as the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son. They are all spoken of in Scripture-in a constant order; the Father first, the Son second, the Spirit third. The Father sends and operates through both the Son and the Spirit. The Son sends and operates through the Spirit. Never the reverse in either case. The Son is sent by, acts for, and reveals the Father. The Spirit is sent by, acts for, and reveals both the Father and the Son. The persons are as eternal as the essence, equal in honour, power, and glory. Three persons, they are one God, being identical in essence and divine perfections. " I and my Father are one." John x. 30. "The Father is in me and I in him." John x. 38. "He that hath seen the Son, hath seen the Father." John xiv. 9 -- 11.

The most ancient and universally accepted statement of all the points involved in the doctrine of the Trinity, is to be found in the Creed of the Council of Nice, A.D. 325, as amended by the Council of Constantinople, A.D. 381.