Can we forgive God?

[oi_antz]

I'm not sure you understood my question, so let me try to put it differently:

Yes indeed.

Why would an omniscient, omnipotent God have enemies to struggle against and forgive in the first place?

That is a big question, it really deserves its own thread but it has been a consistent theme for this thread.

Let me present a somewhat fitting analogy: imagine that you were the director in charge of an enormous construction project. You draw the plans, you appoint and hire the rest of the people involved, and you see to it that everything unfolds according to plan.

You've made a pretty big assumption here that I'm not sure is biblical.

Now, in the early stages of the project, you are presented with a candidate (Satan); your intelligence report (omniscience) tells you that this guy, although not without his gifts, is quite unstable, and will with absolute certainty try to usurp your place or, failing that, sabotage the project.

This is the point of difference we have: I believe Satan was the best candidate for the job and there was no indication that he would become an enemy.

And then you appoint him as your right-hand-man.

That is God's decision to make, not yours or mine!

So everything happens as it must happen: he tries to take your place, fails, and instead tries to foul up your plans. Now, even considering that you are really mellow and kind, and do not want to harm the guy - what's stopping you from preventing the damage he causes? You know where he will strike, how he will strike; and you are perfectly capable of undoing any damage he might cause, even if you let him go through with it.

There is a rescue plan which sets out to save every single human from eternal damnation and bring them into salvation because the war is not between God and mankind, despite whether the human takes side with the enemy.

Now, add to this that this co-worker is in fact a being that *you* have created from scratch, a sort of semi-autonomous, artificial intelligence - and it makes even LESS sense.

It makes no sense to you because you continue to believe that you know better than God does and in turn you refuse to accept God's POV and give Him the reverence that by trusting Him it will eventually work out perfectly for everyone. Figuratively speaking, the ball is in your court and it is your decision whether you play fair or try to make up your own set of rules. You're making a lot of rules to try and stamp God into your own mold and that just simply won't work. Even the most brilliant angel God created cannot force God into his own mold despite that he has been trying to do this for thousands of years already.

Don't forget that time and space are finite and linear, the fact that something happened earlier on the time scale cannot be undone. What is done is done and it is a matter of repairing and rescuing His beloved human from the clutches of the enemy rather than allowing the lot of us to end up a slave to Satan.

I really want to write more and more but I just hate repeating myself! We are discussing spirituality when we discuss God because God is spirit. This spiritual realm cannot be measured nor influenced by science, but it can be observed in anyone who has faith. So spirituality is a very real artifact of our world. Sadly, ignorance doesn't make us immune to it, we are born as slaves to sin and only through the blood of Christ we can be liberated from the bondage. Jesus doesn't take our soul from us, He restores it back to God's original vision for the human that there is no death but eternal life. Check out this quote for an idea of how time will end up once the run of evil has finished taking it's course:

Daniel 8:17-18
"These four huge animals," he said, "represent four kings who will someday rule the earth. But in the end the people of the Most High God shall rule the governments of the world forever and forever."

Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

The moral to the story I've presented you is that you, I and everyone else have our very own right to decide whether to look at things positively or negatively, and the fruits of our spirit are reflective of this attitude.

 

[Wicked Willow]

oi antz, are you a universalist? If not, how do you see things working out perfectly for everyone?

And as for God not knowing that Satan would step out of line: in light of his supposed omniscience and general competence, I find that highly unlikely.

 

[oi_antz]

oi antz, are you a universalist? If not, how do you see things working out perfectly for everyone?

And as for God not knowing that Satan would step out of line: in light of his supposed omniscience and general competence, I find that highly unlikely.

Yes well Satan has his own idea of what is best for earth and this is quite the opposite of Jesus' idea. Satan is too proud to admit he might be wrong. This is the cause of the problems we have, that some humans have decided to trust the enemy instead of God. The right to decide without coercion is a direct example of the purity of God's justice but as I showed you in those prophecies eventually the world will be devoid of evil but not until time and destiny have run their course and it won't be done by force.

Eventually every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, and it will be purely of our own free will. I think you're confusing the realms of eternity and time/space. There are certain laws of physics that define the way in which salvation can be administered now that the enemy has set his plan in motion.

Yes deep in my heart I feel motivated toward universalism, however judgment belongs to Jesus and to that extent the best I can do is share His message of forgiveness with everyone who needs it.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Well you are judging God in this thread, but since God is blameless, all your judgment is landing on Satan. That is the judgment I explained in the first paragraph which lasts as long as Satan roams the earth. As long as a human remains anti-God, he is responsible for giving evil a place in the world. However your choice to take this position on the topic is just as valuable as my position

I would disagree that God is blameless.

 

[oi_antz]

I would disagree that God is blameless.

You are still determined to elevate yourself to God's throne of judgment. In doing so you are copying what Satan did.

 

[Eudaimonist]

You are still determined to elevate yourself to God's throne of judgment. In doing so you are copying what Satan did.

All one has to do to exercise moral judgment is to be human.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[oi_antz]

All one has to do to exercise moral judgment is to be human.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Well quite obviously this remark is plain rubbish, judges are some of the most highly regarded citizens because it is not every person who can judge fairly. And even our such prestigious citizens often enough do a terrible job of being impartial in that role! Can you explain what makes you think the human might ever be capable of judging it's maker (is this even what you're suggesting)?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Can you explain what makes you think the human might ever be capable of judging it's maker (is this even what you're suggesting)?

Yes, I am suggesting exactly that. This doesn't require absolute perfection of judgment, either. This is a red herring. No judgment must be guaranteed perfect and correct in order for this to be something that one ought to perform to the best of one's ability.

Most Nazi soldiers did not have the quality of mind to rival trained judges, however, it was their responsibility to judge the orders they received from their allegedly wiser superiors for their moral content. If an order is evil enough, it is one's responsibility to refuse to carry out the order. It doesn't matter how one feels about one's ability to make that judgment. The responsibility is on every human being to make moral judgments. That is part of being a moral agent.

The same is no less true when one's "superior" is a deity.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[oi_antz]

Yes, I am suggesting exactly that. This doesn't require absolute perfection of judgment, either. This is a red herring. No judgment must be guaranteed perfect and correct in order for this to be something that one ought to perform to the best of one's ability.

Most Nazi soldiers did not have the quality of mind to rival trained judges, however, it was their responsibility to judge the orders they received from their allegedly wiser superiors for their moral content. If an order is evil enough, it is one's responsibility to refuse to carry out the order. It doesn't matter how one feels about one's ability to make that judgment. The responsibility is on every human being to make moral judgments. That is part of being a moral agent.

The same is no less true when one's "superior" is a deity.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Yes, but God doesn't take responsibility for our decisions, every problem you have with God can be reduced to the actions of a human. It is not really God who is in your firing line but you still seem intent on shooting Him nonetheless. I am suggesting this is the real root of our disagreement and it is not actually through any fault of God that you feel this way, it is through your stubbornness not to accept God for who He is, which is everything good. Thus your stance to hold God accountable for something not of His fault, you are playing cards directly from the enemy's hand to argue that the cause of the problem is God and not His opponent (if this is what you believe then you have been deceived and you would not have any proof for your belief).

You didn't explain for me how you think a human might possibly be capable of judging it's maker, please enlighten me.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I am suggesting this is the real root of our disagreement and it is not actually through any fault of God that you feel this way, it is through your stubbornness not to accept God for who He is, which is everything good.

That is a judgment on your part. How have you formed this judgment?

You didn't explain for me how you think a human might possibly be capable of judging it's maker, please enlighten me.

How? Through ethical reasoning. How else?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[SithDoughnut]

You are still determined to elevate yourself to God's throne of judgment. In doing so you are copying what Satan did.

The system of judgement is not a hierarchy, or at least it shouldn't be. Everyone should be free to judge everyone. The power to deal out punishment is understandably limited to a few people, but the freedom to question everyone is a fundamental part of free speech. To violate that freedom is to establish God as a dictator.

 

[oi_antz]

That is a judgment on your part. How have you formed this judgment?

Well I assumed you were on the side arguing against God being perfect, therefore you are arguing that God has a fault, which implies that God is not everything good (in blaming God you are saying He is responsible for something not so good).

How? Through ethical reasoning. How else?

And has this earned the justice you sought?

 

[oi_antz]

The system of judgement is not a hierarchy, or at least it shouldn't be. Everyone should be free to judge everyone. The power to deal out punishment is understandably limited to a few people, but the freedom to question everyone is a fundamental part of free speech. To violate that freedom is to establish God as a dictator.

Yes God knows this, which is why there is tolerance for sin, if we were not capable of sin then He would be a dictator, instead He tolerates our sin that we can be saved through willfully following His commandments. Christians delight to shun sin, whereas others delight to indulge in sin. It's a matter of training the heart to seek good over bad, because usually bad deeds end up in someone disliking the situation and placing blame. Amazing how important like and dislike are to the human

 

[SithDoughnut]

Yes God knows this, which is why there is tolerance for sin, if we were not capable of sin then He would be a dictator, instead He tolerates our sin that we can be saved through willfully following His commandments. Christians delight to shun sin, whereas others delight to indulge in sin. It's a matter of training the heart to seek good over bad, because usually bad deeds end up in someone disliking the situation and placing blame. Amazing how important like and dislike are to the human

So if God has tolerance for sin, then surely he has tolerance for those who question his actions?

 

[oi_antz]

So if God has tolerance for sin, then surely he has tolerance for those who question his actions?

Yes, "tolerance" is a good attribute.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Well I assumed you were on the side arguing against God being perfect, therefore you are arguing that God has a fault, which implies that God is not everything good (in blaming God you are saying He is responsible for something not so good).

I quoted too much of what you wrote. My intended question is: how have you formed the judgment that God is "everything good"?

And has this earned the justice you sought?

I'm an atheist. I don't believe this God actually exists. So there is no possibility of justice and no need for justice.

But I am responding to a hypothetical. "Can we forgive God?" This assumes that God exists and that we have reason to think that God has done something that requires forgiving.

In this hypothetical, assuming that God is omnipotent, then there is no possibility for "earning the justice I sought", if this means by force. What I would earn is my self-respect in the knowledge that I had stayed true to my convictions of right and wrong, and hadn't simply given in spinelessly to evil.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[SithDoughnut]

Yes, "tolerance" is a good attribute.

So then it's not a problem for me to question God.

 

[oi_antz]

So then it's not a problem for me to question God.

You must question to seek truth, but be honest when hearing God's answer. You won't find all of the truth to satisfy your liking, since we humans tend to like some pretty horrid things our judgments will sometimes be partial to sin. This is why I believe the human is unfit for Godly judgment.

 

[oi_antz]

I quoted too much of what you wrote. My intended question is: how have you formed the judgment that God is "everything good"?
eudaimonia,

Mark

The Bible is very clear on this:

Psalm 97:6 (New International Version)

6 The heavens proclaim his righteousness,
and all the peoples see his glory.

 

[b&wpac4]

Christians delight to shun sin, whereas others delight to indulge in sin.

So...

Muslims and Jews, who have the same basic concept of sin as you have, delight in indulging in sin?

Must be why Orthodox Jews won't drive a car on Shabbot and restrict their diets, while Muslims pray five times a day regardless if it is convenient for them.