Can we forgive God?

[SithDoughnut]

Hmm...Charles Templeton agrees with this, but you have to remember that many of these arguments are made on emotion. For what reason would God need forgiveness?

Dooming women to painful childbirth even though they've done nothing wrong, leading people to a point that they are willing to sacrifice their own children for him, general slaughter (if you're omnipotent, you don't have to kill to remove sin), sending his own son to die instead of dealing with issues by himself. General crazy dictator stuff.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Well yes God is omnipotent but He has also reserved His power over sin to give us free will. So we will each believe what we may and what follows is a result of that belief. Since Jesus believed He was the son of God, it followed that the world killed Him because of the beliefs they held about God and the messiah.

An omnipotent being does not have to interfere with free will to deal with sin. Considering that Jesus didn't actually take away any sin, but merely provided a way out, God could easily do that by just speaking to people.

Jesus didn't ever once commit murder nor did He condemn sinners, but He believed in forgiveness and repentance as being the foundation for an ethical society in a sinful world. I don't agree that your attitude to condemn God is nearly as admirable as Jesus' attitude was to unite us with God, hence my desire to argue with your belief.

And you are free to believe so. Your feelings about God are more important than mine, because I don't believe his exists anyway. For you he exists and is very important, for me he is a fictional character, so you're free to totally ignore me.

Can you quote the verse which Jesus says people should be killed for not honoring their father and mother, I don't think I have read that.

Matthew 15. And of course the various verses such as Matthew 5:18 where Jesus establishes OT law as still relevant.

As for original sin, you are forgetting that time and space are linear, they have a beginning and an end, and according to my belief Jesus did atone for original sin, but what has been done cannot just be undone, it must be repared according to certain laws of physics (such as angels being eternal, their life has no natural death so God had to create a lake of fire which would purify the fallen angels of their sinful nature - humans are more fortunate that our soul can be purified by fire, yet the spirit continues to grow while we have a body).

IMO, God could do a bit better than that. That's like saying that a man has completed his sentence but keeping him in prison anyway. God is free to change the laws how he wishes - changing most of them won't affect free will at all (I would say that we actually have no true free will at all).

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by tucker58

Peaceful, there is absolutely no humor to this topic. Absolutely none.

Now I see.

The non Christians are claiming that God has made some mistakes. Their arguments create some interesting realities in some folks minds.

Everyone feels that God has made some mistakes, but that doesn't mean that He has. Name one person who doesn't blame others for his problems? Name one human who doesn't think that life isn't fair. Does that indict God, who is our creator? Why not look at man's own spiritual ineptness? The reason that we normally don't is because we don't see it or want to confess it, yet we are ready to make judgment upon our creator with no complete understanding of ourselves to begin with. This problem has been addressed repeatedly within the Bible. With our limited knowledge and understanding, we make God our scapegoat. If one understands sin along with its origins and consequences, then one can start to realize that your OP is blasphemous.

If God did actually make some mistakes, can we as Christians forgive Him?

Nonsense! Oxmoronic too. God is holy and righteous; therefore, He is incapable of making mistakes; so, let's point the finger to whom it should point to--ourselves. A couple signs of our sinfulness is that we try to get rid of our guilt by blaming in order to excuse ourselves. We forget that we are equipped with a personal will that gives us the ability to disobey God if we choose. Now, I suppose some would argue that any choice we make is still God's mistake due to Him creating us with that capacity. Then the argument of why didn't He make us robots comes into play.

If it actually turned out that God has actually made a mistake some where along the line in the history of Humankind or in individual lives, "Can you personally forgive Him?" In spite of the fact that that mistake might have involved you?

By definition, a god who makes mistakes is not God; therefore, it is a moot question.

Based on what is being explored by the non religious, can we as Christians also forgive God for any possible mistake for anything that He "God" might be accused of making?

That would mean that we are greater than God which would put us in the same predicament as we claim that He is in. In effect, we would be calling ourselves God; but, that puts us back in the position of judging and condemning ourselves. Now that is ironic.

Even though that mistake effected our own personal life? The non religious are attempting to explain that God is evil, if He even exists. Or that He (God) is at least human in some sense of the word "human."

Adding to what I said earlier, if we can judge God, then we are greater than Him; consequently, we replace Him in superiority and suffer the same fate that we accuse Him of. We should then be considered more evil than He. Basically, we would have reduced God to being like one of us; thus, we should stop our complaints about Him and condemn ourselves for being even more self righteous than Him.

Here is another way to look at your OP. If God made mistakes, it wouldn't matter since He created us by His own rules and everything would be relative to His rules. It would be similar to a king ruling over his kingdom. With respect to his kingdom, he is the law. Now if we apply this to God, how much more is it binding? Furthermore, if God's kingdom is the entire universe, who is going to refute or judge Him through his own sovereignty and integrity? Of course, if this is not the only universe out there, then we may have a case against God since His standard may then become relative to another universe, which should imply another God; but, that is contradictory to the God concept to begin with in respect to Christianity, at least.

If God has ever made a mistake, can we as Christians ever forgive Him?

love,

tuck

As I said earlier, such a hypothetical is a logical error and leads to all kinds of fallacies similar to the one of 'can God make a rock that He can't lift'. The only difference is that yours is more philosophical.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Putting hypotheticals aside, I can forgive Abraham for inventing Yahweh out of a mystical experience, the Hebrews for expanding on this God in authoritarian and sometimes warlike ways, and the Christians for expanding on this God even further and inventing such evil doctrines as eternal suffering.

Not that I haven't forgiven already, but what's done is done. It's better to focus on the future, and what can be done in the present.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wicked Willow]

"If we can judge God, then we are greater than Him": how did you jump to that curious conclusion???

What does some sort of hierarchy have to do with ethical/moral evaluations?
What's this "greatness" you speak of? What does it have to do with anything?

 

[awitch]

Angels can't even "look into" Salvation. they can't comprehend it. It makes no sense to them. It just does not pertain.

We are a different "generation." Wicked, but redeemable.

That doesn't make any sense. Adam and Eve didn't understand salvation when they ate their fruit.

If God is supposed to be forgiving and loving and all powerful, he could forgive if he wanted to.

 

[Eudaimonist]

God NEVER makes a mistake. Imagine that, God needing forgiveness. How sad that you would believe such a thing.

He did make a mistake of not putting an electric fence around the Tree of Knowledge.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[b&wpac4]

This was brought up by awitch.

Answer: no! NO!!! HELL NO!!!!

Angels can't even "look into" Salvation. they can't comprehend it. It makes no sense to them. It just does not pertain.

We are a different "generation." Wicked, but redeemable.

What an interesting view. God does not extend mercy to all beings? How does it not make sense to them if it makes sense to you? What makes you more capable to see this?

Also, where if your Biblical proof that all the fallen angels are beyond reprieve?

Does this mean that I can point out that Jesus did not die for all sins then?

 

[Wicked Willow]

If memory serves, there is no such thing as disloyal (let alone "fallen") angels in Judaism.

Which makes sense, seeing how another setting doesn't really line up with some of the most basic features of monotheism.

 

[b&wpac4]

If memory serves, there is no such thing as disloyal (let alone "fallen") angels in Judaism.

Which makes sense, seeing how another setting doesn't really line up with some of the most basic features of monotheism.

No, there is no such thing. The angels are seen as eternally loyal to God, always following instructions exactly, even Satan.

 

[JohnCR]

Everything I say will be under the assumption that God is real.

Nonsense! Oxmoronic too. God is holy and righteous; therefore, He is incapable of making mistakes; so, let's point the finger to whom it should point to--ourselves. A couple signs of our sinfulness is that we try to get rid of our guilt by blaming in order to excuse ourselves. We forget that we are equipped with a personal will that gives us the ability to disobey God if we choose. Now, I suppose some would argue that any choice we make is still God's mistake due to Him creating us with that capacity. Then the argument of why didn't He make us robots comes into play.

But really, he still would have limited our free will anyway if he wrote our DNA. He would have to know that in my DNA is some gene that makes me more likely to be skeptical, or someone else might be prone to anger and violence. Who else can we blame for human nature if he is the one who dictated what human nature was to begin with? If human nature is to be violent to one another, then who made that our nature? This an example of another double standard. He's in control when things are running smoothly, but it's our fault when things go bad.

By definition, a god who makes mistakes is not God; therefore, it is a moot question.

That is only your narrow definition of god. The gods of ancient Greece, for example, were perfectly capable of making mistakes.

That would mean that we are greater than God which would put us in the same predicament as we claim that He is in. In effect, we would be calling ourselves God; but, that puts us back in the position of judging and condemning ourselves. Now that is ironic.

To criticize someone in charge does not automatically put us in charge or above them in any way. This all comes back to that silly idea that God's morals and motives are infallible.

Adding to what I said earlier, if we can judge God, then we are greater than Him; consequently, we replace Him in superiority and suffer the same fate that we accuse Him of. We should then be considered more evil than He. Basically, we would have reduced God to being like one of us; thus, we should stop our complaints about Him and condemn ourselves for being even more self righteous than Him.

I don't know how you could be more self-righteous than a god who judges people's souls based on his own sense of morality. You do not have to be greater than someone to judge them. We can judge him all we want; we just can't do anything to change his actions because he is so powerful.

Here is another way to look at your OP. If God made mistakes, it wouldn't matter since He created us by His own rules and everything would be relative to His rules. It would be similar to a king ruling over his kingdom. With respect to his kingdom, he is the law. Now if we apply this to God, how much more is it binding? Furthermore, if God's kingdom is the entire universe, who is going to refute or judge Him through his own sovereignty and integrity? Of course, if this is not the only universe out there, then we may have a case against God since His standard may then become relative to another universe, which should imply another God; but, that is contradictory to the God concept to begin with in respect to Christianity, at least.

We come to it at last. The one who has the power makes all the rules. Does that mean God is actually just? No. Does that mean we have to like him? No. Does that mean we should play by his rules if we don't want to suffer eternal damnation? Yes.

 

[SanFrank]

IMO, depictions of Deity very much reflect the historical perspectives of the people who came up with that particular vision.

What's interesting about the Old Testament, then, is not how the deity depicted therein corresponds to other Semitic deities of that day and age (IOW, vengeful deities striking down their enemies by the thousands), but how it *differed* from them: YHVH may usually be depicted as a petty, vengeful tyrant slaughtering kids (or demanding the slaughter of kids) for "His Greater Glory" - but sometimes, just sometimes, something else can be seen. A deity that does not approve of human sacrifice, a deity that not only approves of but demands charity and forgiveness. A deity that does not glorify ruthless victors, but sides with the downtrodden and the underdogs.

I think that's what matters about the OT: it created a different way of relating to each other, albeit gradually.

You need to read up. "I (god) found you (abram) naked, bleeding and crying in the bushes (abram was discarded at birth (aborted)). I cleaned you and made you grow; strengthened you and gave you gold and pearls."

 

[SanFrank]

Dooming women to painful childbirth even though they've done nothing wrong, leading people to a point that they are willing to sacrifice their own children for him, general slaughter (if you're omnipotent, you don't have to kill to remove sin), sending his own son to die instead of dealing with issues by himself. General crazy dictator stuff.

try make this easy for ya... even darth vader sacrificed himself

 

[b&wpac4]

You need to read up. "I (god) found you (abram) naked, bleeding and crying in the bushes (abram was discarded at birth (aborted)). I cleaned you and made you grow; strengthened you and gave you gold and pearls."

Where are you getting this from?

 

[Wicked Willow]

You need to read up.

Why? Your quote (origin unknown) doesn't really seem to be at odds with what I wrote.

 

[dlamberth]

God NEVER makes a mistake. Imagine that, God needing forgiveness. How sad that you would believe such a thing.

Those masses of human beings who are deeply hurting and in pain because of what life has dished out to them might have a different take.

.

 

[xDenax]

Those masses of human beings who are deeply hurting and in pain because of what life has dished out to them might have a different take.

The OP's question is way beyond complex but I think what you've said falls in line with how I would answer the question at for our purposes.

The universe is obviously not perfect according to our standards. We have pain, death, loss, grief and suffering. I try not to hold that against the Divine so I guess in a way I am always striving toward forgiving. If I couldn't do that then I would drive myself nuts I think.

Christians see the imperfection in the world as entirely human. Well, good but didn't God create us? In his Image? So...? There has to be something more to it. Are you really going to blame plate tectonics which cause earthquakes that crush children on Eve biting some fruit? Is it all about us? Either God is playing this game or he isn't...right?

If God created everything and then let it go to crap, that's his prerogative but perhaps it does mean he isn't absolutely good all the time? Or I guess one could some a different perspective that God is a part of the world but he doesn't control it, he flows with it. In that case I guess you would need to forgive God for not being more in control.

Duckybill has stated that God never makes mistakes. First, what describes a mistake? Then secondly, how do we know he never makes them? I'm not sure we could ever get a sufficient answer for the first, let alone move on to the second.

Yes, I understand this probably sounds completely terrible. But as I mentioned previously, this is an extrememly complicated question.

 

[oi_antz]

An omnipotent being does not have to interfere with free will to deal with sin.

Did you make that rule up by yourself? It is God that makes the rules you know, it is disgusting to see humans put themselves above God

 

[SithDoughnut]

try make this easy for ya... even darth vader sacrificed himself

I'm not getting it - what's the relevance? Darth Vader didn't send someone else to die for him.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Did you make that rule up by yourself? It is God that makes the rules you know, it is disgusting to see humans put themselves above God

If God is omnipotent, he is capable of doing anything, including dealing with sin without interfering with free will. If he can't, then how can he be omnipotent? I didn't invent the concept of omnipotence.