Can we find Eden, the biblical site of our origin?

[joshua 1 9]

Are you aware that Sunday observation by at least some Christians did not start with any Pope?

Not all churches have apostolic succession. Clearly the Church in Acts worshiped on the first day of the week: "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.". (Acts20:7 )

 

[mmksparbud]

Not all churches have apostolic succession. Clearly the Church in Acts worshiped on the first day of the week: "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.". (Acts20:7 )

That was actually Saturday night. The day started at sundown. He preached from dinner time, breaking bread, sundown, which started the 1st day of the week,to midnight.

 

[joshua 1 9]

That was actually Saturday night. The day started at sundown. He preached from dinner time, breaking bread, sundown, which started the 1st day of the week,to midnight.

Seems kind of funny to start a day at sunset.

 

[Christ is Lord]

Brother, the popes changed the ten commandments of God, placing themselves above the word of God through the prophets to push Sunday as a replacement for the Sabbath in the fourth command, when God never wanted a human king over His people, since He is our king. The popes are a repetition of the desire to separate from God as our king by wanting a human king instead.

The people all said to Samuel, “Pray to the Lord your God for your servants so that we will not die, for we have added to all our other sins the evil of asking for a king.” (1 Samuel 12:19 NIV)​

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

At least some christians began keeping Sunday long before any Pope changed the day.

 

[mmksparbud]

Seems kind of funny to start a day at sunset.

I know. That's what God decided. Throughout creation week it was evening and morning--and the Sabbath has always been from Friday night sundown, to Saturday night, sundown.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

[guevaraj]

At least some christians began keeping Sunday long before any Pope changed the day.

Brother, no christian group thought of Sunday as a replacement for the Sabbath before the popes pushed it to the point of changing the fourth commandment. That was the finding of my professor, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, at Andrews University in his book: "From Sabbath To Sunday: A Historical Investigation Of The Rise Of Sunday Observance In Early Christianity". United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[His student]

Your own words show you that you see “foolishness” in those who are being saved by the power of God.

Not at all true.

It matters not to me if you anchor a boat in the middle of the Pacific ocean over the dateline to keep the Sabbath as you understand it, pray to Mary and the saints, kneel on a prayer rug, and bring along a guy dressed in black to chant special Latin words to supposedly turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.

If you mean it as a thankful obedience to the one in who's work at Calvary you have trusted as your only hope of salvation -- I'll probably see you in Heaven in spite of your errors in doctrine - or at least I hope so.

But if you are doing anything, from worshiping on a certain day to rituals of any kind, in order to add to or replace the finished work of Jesus Christ on our behalf for basic salvation and suggesting that others need to do the same - you are preaching another gospel and I doubt very much that I will see you on the other side of this life - before or after any period of so called soul sleep.

Good luck with your religion.

Hope to see you on the other side.

 

[Christ is Lord]

Brother, no christian group thought of Sunday as a replacement for the Sabbath before the popes pushed it to the point of changing the fourth commandment. That was the finding of my professor, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, at Andrews University in his book: "From Sabbath To Sunday: A Historical Investigation Of The Rise Of Sunday Observance In Early Christianity". United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

How do you know for certain that no Christian group thought of Sunday as a replacement for the Sabbath before the Popes pushed it?

There is early evidence that at least some Christians started meeting for cooperate worship on Sunday because of the Resurrection. One of the main sources that proves this is a letter by Ignatius the bishop of Antioch who died by the second-century AD. Based on that evidence we cannot say that ALL Christians kept Saturday nor can we say that ALL Christians kept Sunday or both.

In Ignatius's letter to the Magnesians he states in the 9th chapter

1 If then they who walked in ancient customs came to a new hope, no longer living for the Sabbath, but for the Lord’s Day, on which also our life sprang up through him and his death,—though some deny him,—and by this mystery we received faith, and for this reason also we suffer, that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher; 2 if these things be so, how then shall we be able to live without him of whom even the prophets were disciples in the Spirit and to whom they looked forward as their teacher? And for this reason he whom they waited for in righteousness, when he came raised them from the dead.

Then notice what he says in the next chapter

1 Let us then not be insensible to his goodness, for if he should imitate us in our actions we are lost. For this cause let us be his disciples, and let us learn to lead Christian lives. For whoever is called by any name other than this is not of God. 2 Put aside then the evil leaven, which has grown old and sour, and turn to the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in him, that none among you may be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be tested. 3 It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to practise Judaism. For Christianity did not base its faith on Judaism, but Judaism on Christianity, and every tongue believing on God was brought together in it.

Finally, Justin Martyr who died by the second-century AD states in his first apology

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,2 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows, and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds, and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

There is further evidence such as the Didache and regardless if you accept the late date (second-century) or the early date (first-century) for when it was written this is before any Pope changed the day of worship to Sunday. This notion that mainly Adventist are pushing that Sunday observation originated with the Roman Catholic Church is just false. And because I know you're from the Adventist tradition I know you'll probably state that Sunday keep and a Sunday "law" started with Emperor Constantine. By the time Constantine (300s AD) came around we know there are Christians (again we don't know how widespread) that are keeping Sunday instead of Saturday for cooperate worship.

There is no need whatsoever to try to "change" history to prove to other Christians that they need to keep Saturday instead of Sunday. Personally, I keep Saturday but my reasoning to do so has nothing to do with seeing this "fake" history that the Pope started it. Please stop using the Roman Catholic Church as an easy punching bag regardless of what they say in their catechism of how the Pope changed the day due to his authority.

Works cited:

Clement I, P., Ignatius, S., Bishop of Antioch, Polycarp, S., Bishop of Smyrna, & Lake, K. (1912–1913). The Apostolic fathers. (K. Lake, Ed.) (Vol. 1, pp. 205–207). Cambridge MA; London: Harvard University Press.

Justin Martyr. (1885). The First Apology of Justin. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, pp. 185–186). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

 

[mmksparbud]

Not at all true.

It matters not to me if you anchor a boat in the middle of the Pacific ocean over the dateline to keep the Sabbath as you understand it, pray to Mary and the saints, kneel on a prayer rug, and bring along a guy dressed in black to chant special Latin words to supposedly turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.

If you mean it as a thankful obedience to the one in who's work at Calvary you have trusted as your only hope of salvation -- I'll probably see you in Heaven in spite of your errors in doctrine - or at least I hope so.

But if you are doing anything, from worshiping on a certain day to rituals of any kind, in order to add to or replace the finished work of Jesus Christ on our behalf for basic salvation and suggesting that others need to do the same - you are preaching another gospel and I doubt very much that I will see you on the other side of this life - before or after any period of so called soul sleep.

Good luck with your religion.

Hope to see you on the other side.

This dateline stuff has nothing to do with our religion---it is entirely his own theory.

 

[His student]

This dateline stuff has nothing to do with our religion---it is entirely his own theory.

Nor have I said otherwise.

But Saturday vs. Sunday worship has everything to do with it.

 

[Yahkov]

I'd bet if we found the literal location to where Eden was, we would all be scratching our heads.

 

[guevaraj]

How do you know for certain that no Christian group thought of Sunday as a replacement for the Sabbath before the Popes pushed it?

Brother, in this video, my professor summarizes the conclusion of his study, how he changed the opinion of his own professor who admitted that the change from Sabbath to Sunday was post apostolic. No apostle was responsible for the change.

The predominant academic opinion before the study of my professor was that the Jerusalem church pioneered the abandonment of the Sabbath for Sunday. The reason is that only the apostolic church in Jerusalem could have the authority to make such a change. To counter this assumption, Bacchiocchi discovered that Epiphanius (about 350) tells the story of the direct descendants of the Jerusalem church. Epiphanius informs us that the Nazarenes persisted in the observance of the Sabbath until his own time (about A.D. 350). Bacchiocchi found this document in Greek and Latin. He shared this finding with his professor, who admitted that this was a fatal blow to the thought that the Jerusalem church made the change from Sabbath to Sunday to celebrate the resurection of Jesus. If a direct descendent of the Jerusalem church insisted and persisted in the observance of the Sabbath until the fourth century, then they could hardly have been responsible for changing the Sabbath to Sunday in the first place. His finding definitely showed the Jerusalem church is excluded. In his defense of his dissertation, his professor admitted having changed his mind and acknowledged that Sunday keeping is a post apostolic phenomenon. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[coffee4u]

You don't have the option on your poll of 'none of the above'. Eden was destroyed in the global flood, it's long gone.

 

[mmksparbud]

Nor have I said otherwise.

But Saturday vs. Sunday worship has everything to do with it.

Being SDA--I agree with 7th day Sabbath. God wrote it--did not rescind it and no one can change what He has written.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Eden was destroyed in the global flood, it's long gone.

Eden is believed to be under the Persian Gulf. There was some discussion about pearls and Jesus talks about a pearl of great price. The wisdom is not gone.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I'd bet if we found the literal location to where Eden was, we would all be scratching our heads.

I would think that in Heaven there is some kind of a recreation so we can see what Eden looked like. There is suppose to be a place we can go there where we can recreate anything that we remember.

 

[guevaraj]

You don't have the option on your poll of 'none of the above'. Eden was destroyed in the global flood, it's long gone.

Sister, Eden's location is in all of us around the world by counting the days with the week that God taught us at the beginning, the reason for the International Date Line. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[guevaraj]

I know. That's what God decided. Throughout creation week it was evening and morning--and the Sabbath has always been from Friday night sundown, to Saturday night, sundown.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Sister, that is an assumption that was not based on all the biblical evidence, our prophetess knew that we would understand more in the future.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church Volume One, Page 116)​

Not only what the word "evening" means but "when it is" in the first day. Evening is in the middle of the first day that, just as the Sabbath in Israel is from evening to evening, the first day was from light to light with an evening in the middle. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Christ is Lord]

Sister, that is an assumption that was not based on all the biblical evidence, our prophetess knew that we would understand more in the future.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church Volume One, Page 116)​

Not only what the word "evening" means but "where it is" in the first day. Evening is in the middle of the first day that, just as the Sabbath in Israel is from evening to evening, the first day was from light to light with an evening in the middle. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Just wow.

 

[Christ is Lord]

Brother, in this video, my professor summarizes the conclusion of his study, how he changed the opinion of his own professor who admitted that the change from Sabbath to Sunday was post apostolic. No apostle was responsible for the change.

The predominant academic opinion before the study of my professor was that the Jerusalem church pioneered the abandonment of the Sabbath for Sunday. The reason is that only the apostolic church in Jerusalem could have the authority to make such a change. To counter this assumption, Bacchiocchi discovered that Epiphanius (about 350) tells the story of the direct descendants of the Jerusalem church. Epiphanius informs us that the Nazarenes persisted in the observance of the Sabbath until his own time (about A.D. 350). Bacchiocchi found this document in Greek and Latin. He shared this finding with his professor, who admitted that this was a fatal blow to the thought that the Jerusalem church made the change from Sabbath to Sunday to celebrate the resurection of Jesus. If a direct descendent of the Jerusalem church insisted and persisted in the observance of the Sabbath until the fourth century, then they could hardly have been responsible for changing the Sabbath to Sunday in the first place. His finding definitely showed the Jerusalem church is excluded. In his defense of his dissertation, his professor admitted having changed his mind and acknowledged that Sunday keeping is a post apostolic phenomenon. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Please reread my entire post above. I never claimed that keeping Sunday was an Apostolic tradition. I said that as early as the 100s AD you have at least some Christians keeping Sunday because of the Resurrection. I said that because you originally claim that people didn’t keep it until the “popes”.