Can we find Eden, the biblical site of our origin?

Which is the most correct?

  • Eden is at the International Date Line

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Sabbath shift at Israel points to the International Date Line

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,060
143
53
Berrien Springs
Visit site
✟538,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
the location of the international date line was an entirely arbitrary choice done for the sake of convenience. It was located in the middle of the Pacific ocean so as to disturb as few people as possible. If different criteria had been used it could have been located anywhere else on earth.
Brother, how Israel remembers the Sabbath shows that the International Date Line is not arbitrary at all, it comes from all of us in all our places around the world because of our common origin with God teaching Adam, the first human, to count the days with the week.

I personally regard the Eden story as allegorical. The literal details are of little importance compared to the spiritual meaning of the story. In other words, it is a parable written large much like Job and Jonah.
That assumption to which you cling is now challenged by our ability to locate Eden from Israel due to the Sabbath. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,060
143
53
Berrien Springs
Visit site
✟538,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Everything God has ever done has occurred either in or around what we call ISRAEL, God is hiding the Garden of Eden in plain sight, the epicenter of the Garden is the Temple mount.
Brother, that assumption to which you cling is now challenged by our ability to locate Eden from Israel due to the Sabbath. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,060
143
53
Berrien Springs
Visit site
✟538,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
I haven't read all the responses so don't know if it has been mentioned yet but the Flood was so cataclysmic I can't imagine Eden or anywhere else still exists.
Brother, that is why historically it was incompetent to use rivers to locate Eden, but the Sabbath gives us the location of Eden from Israel. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,060
143
53
Berrien Springs
Visit site
✟538,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
This is what hyper literalism gets to you. :crossrc:
Brother, the Bible uses symbolism and gives us the meaning of that symbolism, but denominations have abused this use in the Bible by inventing their own symbolism external to the Bible that they try to force on the Bible to defend their traditions against the word of God. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

Christ is Lord

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2019
578
410
Top Secret
✟27,506.00
Country
Virgin Islands, British
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Brother, the Bible uses symbolism and gives us the meaning of that symbolism, but denominations have abused this use in the Bible by inventing their own symbolism external to the Bible that they try to force on the Bible to defend their traditions against the word of God. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

You’re using the international date line which is external to the Bible to prove your point about the Sabbath.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
The Bible shows me that Eden falls on the International Date Line (IDL). Genesis 1:3-5 shows that the first day is from light to light or from morning to morning. In Israel, the Sabbath is not the seventh day of the week as it was in Eden: Israel remembers to keep the seventh-day Sabbath established in Eden holy by remembering the Sabbath in the time zone of Eden from evening to evening, ten hours before its local seventh day of the week from morning to morning in obedience to God's instructions. This shift of ten hours point to the site of Eden from Israel and fall on the International Date Line. The International Date Line comes from all of us from the beginning: when God taught the human race to count the days with the week to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy; before humanity spread throughout the world. This tradition of counting days established the International Date Line without us appreciating its significance in our history until these last days. I have written a book on the subject, links below. I welcome everyone to challenge my point of view. I am willing to provide a free PDF copy to influential people who can promote this book through reviews or other means. Sincerely, Jorge

Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07VQNPY8N
Apple: ‎Proof of God in the International Date Line
Kobo: Proof of God in the International Date Line eBook by Jorge Pablo Guevara - 1230003334331 | Rakuten Kobo
Barnes & Noble: Proof of God in the International Date Line|NOOK Book

I totally disagree with you. Genesis clearly states the evening as the beginning of the 24 hour cycle--12 hours dark, followed by 12 hours light. That is why the Jews, and Jesus Himself, kept the Sabbath from sundown to sundown. Don't tell me that Jesus did not know what He was doing. It is not from sunup to sunup nor any other time--evening to evening is a 24 hour period in biblical time.

Mat_28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.

Act_20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

This actually was Saturday night that they got together at sundown--which begins the first day of the week.


"The Hebrew word for day is yom and this word appears in Scriptures over 1400 times. And without exception this word, when written in the singular sense, means day. And that's it. Never anything else. Eons are indicated with the plural form: days, as in the days of such and such. The most popular counter argument is that the meaning of our word is fiercely restricted to 'day' for about a thousand times in the sequential Scriptures, but in the secluded chapter of Genesis 1 means something completely different! But honestly, if in Genesis 1 our word should have meant 'long time' it would have said 'long time'. There are words available in Hebrew that mean just that. None of which occur in Genesis 1.
The word as used in Genesis 1 means day and day alone. There's no way around it, and every serious theory to make (systematic, not theological) sense out of Genesis 1 should first and foremost address the yom-problem.
A yom therefore is a phase of a continuum (whether space-time, complexity or something else) that consists of two periods: a 'dark' part and a 'light' part. During the dark part of a regular day people sleep and are disconnected. During the light part they communicate and work together. Any other manifestation of yom should display the same kind of darkness (elements not connected) and lightness (elements connected).

The yom problem in addressing Genesis 1

5 and~he~will~CALL.OUT(V) (וַיִּקְרָא / wai'yiq'ra) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) to~LIGHT (לָאוֹר / la'or) DAY (יוֹם / yom) and~to~DARKNESS (וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ / wê'la'hho'shekh) he~did~CALL.OUT(V) (קָרָא / qa'ra) NIGHT (לָיְלָה / lai'lah) and~he~will~EXIST(V) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) EVENING (עֶרֶב / e'rev) and~he~will~EXIST(V) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) MORNING (בֹקֶר / vo'qer) DAY (יוֹם / yom) UNIT (אֶחָד / e'hhad)
RMT: and Elohiym called out to the light, day, and to the darkness he called out, night, and evening existed and morning existed, a day unit,

17 and~from~TREE (וּמֵעֵץ / u'mey'eyts) the~DISCERNMENT (הַדַּעַת / ha'da'at) FUNCTIONAL (טוֹב / tov) and~DYSFUNCTIONAL (וָרָע / wa'ra) NOT (לֹא / lo) you(ms)~will~EAT(V) (תֹאכַל / to'khal) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) GIVEN.THAT (כִּי / ki) in~DAY (בְּיוֹם / bê'yom) you(ms)~>~EAT(V) (אֲכָלְךָ / a'khal'kha) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) >~DIE(V) (מוֹת / mot) you(ms)~will~DIE(V) (תָּמוּת / ta'mut)
RMT: but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,

The word for DAY in Gen. 1 is different from the word for DAY in Gen 2
Yom is 24 hours Beyom is an age----which makes perfect sense in as much as Adam and Eve did not die in that 24 hour period---but in an age--in this case, over 900 years later.

The Torah: Genesis 2
The yom problem in addressing Genesis 1

Before the advent of clocks, time was measured according to the sun’s position with a day being the duration between two consecutive “noons.” The early mechanical clocks were set to use this particular description of time, but their effectiveness was limited to a specific geographic area due to the variations in the position of the sun in different regions. During the 19th century, the transport industry was experiencing a boom with trans-continental travel being made easier and faster. However, the long-distance travel posed an issue with time-keeping with travelers having to set their clocks severally during their journey which was an annoying inconvenience. The development of other long-distance modes of telecommunication such as the telegraph and the telephone further compounded the problem especially in their military and commercial application. The remedy for this problem was to establish a global standard of time with 24 time zones, a theory which was first coined by Sir Sandford Fleming in 1876. The theory was applied in 1900 and used to date. Standard Time Zones were divided to be 15 degrees wide with the Greenwich Meridian, at zero degrees, being the starting point. The time zones run east and west of the Greenwich Meridian until they reached the 180 degrees longitude which became the International Date Line.

This is something that man created. To impose something that man created unto God's command of evening to evening makes no sense whastsoever and has nothing to do with where Eden is. If Jesus could keep the Sasbbath without Eden, there is no problem with us keeping it without Eden. This is not "SDA theology," this is your theory only.
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
................United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus
Any uniting that may come from our mutual hope in the soon return of Jesus - will become division as we debate the foolishness of the gospel according to Seventh Day Adventism.

This fixation on the location of the Garden of Eden and it's relationship to the International Date Line ranks right up there with soul sleep and the investigative judgment on the foolishness scale of the cults - including any hard line Seventh Day Adventists.

Locating the Garden of Eden and the resultant keeping the Sabbath in a certain exact manner and at an exact time has about as much relationship to basic salvation and justification in God's eyes as does a belief in special glasses and tablets of stone in 19th century America, burial shrouds in Italy, or the foreskin of Jesus at a church in France.

It's all hog wash and the result of a basic misunderstanding of salvation itself.

The international date line is the invention of men as are the various gospel aberrations preached by hard line SDA's and the other cults we have encountered in the history of Christendom.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Any uniting that comes from our mutual hope in the soon return of Jesus - will become division as we debate the foolishness of the gospel according to Seventh Day Adventism.

This fixation on the location of the Garden of Eden of Eden and it's relationship to the International Date Line ranks right up there with soul sleep and the investigative judgment on the foolishness scale of the cults - including any hard line Seventh Day Adventists.

Locating the Garden of Eden and the resultant keeping the Sabbath in a certain exact manner and at an exact time has about as much relationship to basic salvation and justification in God's eyes as does a belief in special glasses and tablets of stone in 19th century America, burial shrouds in Italy, or the foreskin of Jesus at a church in France.

It's all hog wash and the result of a basic misunderstanding of salvation itself.

The international date line is the invention of men as are the various scriptural aberrations preached by hard line SDA's and the other cults we encounter in the history of Christendom.

Our doctrines are all totally and completely based on scripture and have nothing to do with International Dateline theory at all. As for the Sabbath, we follow the word of God and the example of Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,060
143
53
Berrien Springs
Visit site
✟538,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
You’re using the international date line which is external to the Bible to prove your point about the Sabbath.
Brother, another common mistake is to use history to force the interpretation of the Bible, when it does not fit. The Bible is revealing something about the International Date Line with the Sabbath and not the other way around. I did not start with the International Date Line and force an interpretation of the Sabbath. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If 'Eden' is a literal, historical, place, then, yes, possibly, it can be 'found.'
Eden is believed to be under the Persian gulf. So if you want to find Eden you are going to need a submarine.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Pioneer3mm
Upvote 0

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
the first day
There was no first day, there was the beginning of day. The calendar is set up so that when the Hebrew nation was scattered to the world each town could observe the Bible holidays. This did not become an issue until the train came along. So Einstein took the task to resolve the issue of a standard time anywhere you go in the world. Time then becomes relative. They talk about the light from the early universe. So we can look to see what the universe looked like in the beginning. Gerald Schroeder talks about how time looking forward is different from time looking back. So the perspective of Genesis is from the beginning looking forward and not from the end look back. From Schroeder perspective each day in Genesis is half the length of the day before. If we want to line the Bible up with Science then this is going to be the only way to do that. Each day is an age or era that is half the length of the once that came before it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Our doctrines are all totally and completely based on scripture
Some people base their understanding on the meaning of he letters that make up the words. There are 22 letters and they all mean something. For example A represents an Ox head and strength. B represents a tent or a dwelling or even the sanctuary in the tabernacle where God dwells. There is a letter that represents the mouth and there is a letter that represents the hand.
 
Upvote 0

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,060
143
53
Berrien Springs
Visit site
✟538,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Any uniting that may come from our mutual hope in the soon return of Jesus - will become division as we debate the foolishness of the gospel according to Seventh Day Adventism.

Brother, the word “foolishness” is found in the Bible.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18 NIV)​

Your own words show you that you see “foolishness” in those who are being saved by the power of God.

This fixation on the location of the Garden of Eden and it's relationship to the International Date Line ranks right up there with soul sleep and the investigative judgment on the foolishness scale of the cults - including any hard line Seventh Day Adventists.

The dead know nothing and to think otherwise goes against what God has revealed.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5 NIV)​

The order of events in Daniel and his account of these events in more detail, places the heavenly judgment that began in October 22, 1844 at the end of the time prophesy that William Miller thought it was the coming of Jesus. William Miller omitted the heavenly judgment necessary for the first resurrection of only the saved Jesus will take to heaven upon His return, the rest of the dead not judged worthy of participating in the first resurrection will stay on the ground until after the thousand years.

As I looked, “thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10 NIV)​

This heavenly judgment is what Seventh-day Adventists have highlighted as the investigative judgment.

Locating the Garden of Eden and the resultant keeping the Sabbath in a certain exact manner and at an exact time has about as much relationship to basic salvation and justification in God's eyes as does a belief in special glasses and tablets of stone in 19th century America, burial shrouds in Italy, or the foreskin of Jesus at a church in France.

We are saved by faith shown through obedience.

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” e and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. (James 2:20-24 NIV)​

We show faith when we remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy. Any Sunday substitute pushed by the popes of the Roman apostate church shows faith in the inventions of man and not in God.

It's all hog wash and the result of a basic misunderstanding of salvation itself.

Salvation is through faith in God that is shown by doing what God asks, if you do not do what God asks, your actions are not showing faith in God that will save you.

The international date line is the invention of men as are the various gospel aberrations preached by hard line SDA's and the other cults we have encountered in the history of Christendom.

Everyone thinks the International Date Line was arbitrary and has nothing to say about us, but the Sabbath shows that it comes from the beginning, when God taught us to count the days with the week to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
the Sabbath shows that it comes from the beginning, when God taught us to count the days with the week to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy.
The Hebrew calendar works off of the moon. At some point in time the moon hit the earth. We are told: "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Science talks a lot about dust. The earth and the moon started their dance together before there was light. The first days would have only been 5 or 6 hours of light. The spin-down rate of the earth is in direct proportion to the receding rate of the moon. Then God said: "Let there be light" At the time a day was billions of years long (OEC). Sunrise is always moving. You can chase it in an airplane. It is difficult to imagine that there was a time and a place where the first sunrise began. If there was it would have been Jerusalem. Melchizedek was the King - Priest of Salam. Abraham paid tithe to him. This was the city Abraham's descendant David was to inherit: Jerusalem.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,060
143
53
Berrien Springs
Visit site
✟538,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Are you aware that Sunday observation by at least some Christians did not start with any Pope?
Brother, the popes changed the ten commandments of God, placing themselves above the word of God through the prophets to push Sunday as a replacement for the Sabbath in the fourth command, when God never wanted a human king over His people, since He is our king. The popes are a repetition of the desire to separate from God as our king by wanting a human king instead.

The people all said to Samuel, “Pray to the Lord your God for your servants so that we will not die, for we have added to all our other sins the evil of asking for a king.” (1 Samuel 12:19 NIV)​

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0