Can we choose Him before He wakes us up?

[Ken Rank]

God hates sin and sinners. If we had any value, we share his glory.

Agreed with the other brother... God hates sin but there is NO VERSE that says He hates sinners. Rather, He so loved the world He sent His son.... Dave, to maintain your position in certain places it is as if you are making stuff up to save face. Just let truth be what it is and truth is NOT "God hates sinners!"

 

[NW82]

Most of the confusion over this is based on the free will gospel popular today. People think they must choose to believe in order to be saved. But choosing to believe is in fact - their first act of faith. You need to believe already or you wouldn't choose to believe! Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. It's a characteristic of those whom he saves.

This presumes Calvinism.

 

[BNR32FAN]

 

[Phil 1:21]

Can we choose Him before He wakes us up?

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." John 6:44

 

[BNR32FAN]

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." John 6:44

Amen

“For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.””
‭‭John‬ ‭6:40‬

 

[JoeP222w]

Slightly different question to the one yesterday. Does it matter?

If we are born spiritually dead or become dead spiritually because of our own unavoidable sin nature, we need the work of God to make us spiritually alive again.

If we come spiritually dead, regardless of how, what do you base your belief on that we can choose God? Do you believe He has to make us spiritually alive before we can choose Him or can we choose Him before He awakens us?

What happened to Lazarus gives us the answer:

John 11:38-43 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. (39) Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.” (40) Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” (41) So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. (42) I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.” (43) When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.”

Lazarus was dead. He did not become alive because he (Lazarus) chose God. It was the grace of God that gave Lazarus life.

Additionally:

Ephesians 2:1-5 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins (2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— (3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

 

[JoeP222w]

Revelation 3
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Context matters. That was to the church who already believed, that was not referring to salvation.

 

[redleghunter]

This is saying that God is working in us but not that we are a chosen selected group.

The point made is that we are dead before being made alive in Christ. Dead people cannot choose God. He must make us alive before we can respond in faith and repentance.

However, on the separate issue you raise above....

Ephesians 1: ESV

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[eleos1954]

Context matters. That was to the church who already believed, that was not referring to salvation.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

 

[Dave L]

This presumes Calvinism.

It does not. It uses scripture alone to prove the point.

 

[Dave L]

Agreed with the other brother... God hates sin but there is NO VERSE that says He hates sinners. Rather, He so loved the world He sent His son.... Dave, to maintain your position in certain places it is as if you are making stuff up to save face. Just let truth be what it is and truth is NOT "God hates sinners!"

Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Romans 9:13)

The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness;
The upright will behold His face. (Psalm 11:5, 7)

For You are not a God who delights in wickedness;evil may not dwell with You. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all evil doers. (Psalm 5:4-5)

 

[BNR32FAN]

The point made is that we are dead before being made alive in Christ. Dead people cannot choose God. He must make us alive before we can respond in faith and repentance.

However, on the separate issue you raise above....

Ephesians 1: ESV

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Yup being all knowing He chose those who chose to believe and endure to the end.

 

[NW82]

It does not. It uses scripture alone to prove the point.

So you're saying that some people are damned to hell without any possibility of salvation, and that God preordained it? I've not read that anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Dave L]

So you're saying that some people are damned to hell without any possibility of salvation, and that God preordained it? I've not read that anywhere in the Bible.

“And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” (1 Peter 2:8)

 

[JoeP222w]

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

I agree completely.

 

[FatalHeart]

Slightly different question to the one yesterday. Does it matter?

If we are born spiritually dead or become dead spiritually because of our own unavoidable sin nature, we need the work of God to make us spiritually alive again.

If we come spiritually dead, regardless of how, what do you base your belief on that we can choose God? Do you believe He has to make us spiritually alive before we can choose Him or can we choose Him before He awakens us?

"No one can come to me unless the Father draws him."

"I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith."

 

[Ken Rank]

Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Romans 9:13)

The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness;
The upright will behold His face. (Psalm 11:5, 7)

For You are not a God who delights in wickedness;evil may not dwell with You. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all evil doers. (Psalm 5:4-5)

Dave, God did not hate Essau... Jacob didn't hate Leah... this is the problem with reading and thinking only in American modern English! The idea that God HATES anyone stands against the character of God... it profanes His name. Romans 9:13 is an IDIOMATIC phrase well know to any Israelite in the first century... it means, "love less."

God so loved the world that He sent His only son to die for them but He really hates the sinners Christ was dying for??? We are to love neighbor but God can hate them? We are to love even our enemy but God can hate them? That isn't consistent with Scripture... but keep trying.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Most of the confusion over this is based on the free will gospel popular today. People think they must choose to believe in order to be saved. But choosing to believe is in fact - their first act of faith. You need to believe already or you wouldn't choose to believe! Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. It's a characteristic of those whom he saves.

I disagree with you. But, I understand why you answered the way you did.

 

[fhansen]

Slightly different question to the one yesterday. Does it matter?

If we are born spiritually dead or become dead spiritually because of our own unavoidable sin nature, we need the work of God to make us spiritually alive again.

If we come spiritually dead, regardless of how, what do you base your belief on that we can choose God? Do you believe He has to make us spiritually alive before we can choose Him or can we choose Him before He awakens us?

He must call us first. But even then we're not forced to answer.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I don't believe we have been born spiritually dead. That doctrine just doesn't hold up to the balance of Scripture. Consider... if we are born spiritually dead and only the work of Messiah can undo that death... then how can David cry out asking God to not remove His Holy Spirit from him? Why would Abraham be considered a man of great faith and a "friend of God" according to Scripture? Why would God... the God of life... enter covenant with death? After all, if it isn't until Messiah's work that this spiritual death is reversed, than why did God enter covenant with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, all of Israel? They are dead and He is life and that would be mixing the profane and holy... wouldn't it?

No.... that is why the doctrine of spiritual death doesn't hold up. The death in the garden was physical... Adam was not created to die, his sin caused a clock to begin ticking toward his demise. When we are changed, made incorruptible, perfected... then there will be no more death. But there is still death which proves he has done the work and WILL perfect us, but we are still paying the price of sin (death). Some will balk at that thought... but remember.... an alcoholic can spend 20 years damaging his body and then come to Christ in faith, truly become a child of God, and yet still die of liver damage. We are all dying because of sin... but we also have the hope of resurrection now.

I don't agree with all you said, but I appreciate what you shared. I too look at Noah, Abram/Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, Job, Elijah, Daniel.....etc...even John the Baptist and the Apostles. If we are 100% depraved, as some claim, none of them could have made a decision to follow God without being born again. Like you said, that just doesn't add up to what Scripture says.

At the same time though, none of us get out of the crib and have a walking/talking relationship with God from the start like Adam and Eve had. That is kind of what I think of as spiritually alive. Because I have a relationship with Him now, nobody is able to talk me out of it. But, before I did....well let's just say there is a big difference between then and now.

As far as what we did to our bodies: I have seen people who were healed from past sins--like drug use--because they came to realize that "all things are created new" and God healed them through the prayer of faith.

I think of