Can we choose Him before He wakes us up?

[Dave L]

But you didn’t believe it was there until you saw it with your eyes or someone told you about it. You won’t be sitting on your couch at home and all the sudden go outside to pick up a dollar bill already knowing it’s laying on the sidewalk without either seeing it or being told about it. A person cannot believe the gospel of they have never heard the gospel.

You believed (had eternal life) before you chose to believe or you wouldn't have chosen to believe.

 

[Dave L]

That faith is AFTER salvation, not the faith required FOR salvation.

That is an intentional misrepresentation of salvic faith.

Flesh faith doesn't save. It caters to idols. Holy Spirit faith saves, discerning the true Christ.

 

[Dave-W]

If you have eternal life, you were always saved in God's mind. And nothing can change that without making God's omniscience imperfect.

That again is a misrepresentation of God's omniscience.

"In God's mind.." is a bad way of thinking of things. It is not biblical. Yes God knew before creation who would eventually be saved, and the exact second that would happen. But that does not mean we are saved before that second. And it does NOT diminish our choice in the matter.

 

[Dave L]

That again is a misrepresentation of God's omniscience.

"In God's mind.." is a bad way of thinking of things. It is not biblical. Yes God knew before creation who would eventually be saved, and the exact second that would happen. But that does not mean we are saved before that second. And it does NOT diminish our choice in the matter.

If God learns, he was never omniscient.

 

[Dave-W]

Flesh faith doesn't save. It caters to idols. Holy Spirit faith saves, discerning the true Christ.

I am not sure what "flesh faith" even is.
It is not something I am talking about.

True biblical faith comes from hearing the [rhema = spoken] Word of God. The drawing of the Holy Spirit is God speaking to us. That is faith from HIM. But as the author of Hebrews said; quoting Psalm 95:

Today if you hear HIS voice, do not harden your hearts....

 

[Dave-W]

If God learns, he was never omniscient.

Where did I say (or even imply) "learns?"

 

[Dave L]

Where did I say (or even imply) "learns?"

Free will = God is not omniscient.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Eternal life has no beginning or end. You were always saved in God's mind. And nothing can change the eternal decree. Those who appear to believe and fall away never had eternal life.

I agree in a sense. The book of life was written before creation and it will not be edited. But that doesn’t necessarily mean a person never believed if they we’re not written in the book of life because only those who are victorious and endure to the end will receive eternal life. So a person can believe but not endure to the end and will not be saved.

 

[Dave L]

I agree in a sense. The book of life was written before creation and it will not be edited. But that doesn’t necessarily mean a person never believed if they we’re not written in the book of life because only those who are victorious and endure to the end will receive eternal life. So a person can believe but not endure to the end and will not be saved.

Only those with eternal life will overcome.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If you have eternal life, you were always saved in God's mind. And nothing can change that without making God's omniscience imperfect.

“And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬

“Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-6‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Only those with eternal life will overcome.

Where does the scriptures say that? You have that backwards

 

[Dave L]

“And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬

“Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-6‬

These did not have eternal life. Obviously.

 

[Dave-W]

Free will = God is not omniscient.

Not at all.
If you think that, you are using a false pagan logic system. (Aristotelian)

That is where Calvin went wrong (and to a degree so did Arminius) using Aristotle's logic (who was an idol worshiper) to analyze scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Where does the scriptures say that? You have that backwards

Eternal life has no beginning or end. God is eternal life.

 

[Dave L]

Not at all.
If you think that, you are using a false pagan logic system. (Aristotelian)

That is where Calvin went wrong (and to a degree so did Arminius) using Aristotle's logic (who was an idol worshiper) to analyze scripture.

If God learned what people might do, and then created it, he was not omniscient.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Slightly different question to the one yesterday. Does it matter?

If we are born spiritually dead or become dead spiritually because of our own unavoidable sin nature, we need the work of God to make us spiritually alive again.

If we come spiritually dead, regardless of how, what do you base your belief on that we can choose God? Do you believe He has to make us spiritually alive before we can choose Him or can we choose Him before He awakens us?

The text says that God placed people in difficult situations so that they would reach out to Him.

Israel was in a difficult situation in Canaan but God gave Joseph a dream which angered his family and set off a chain of events that placed Israel in Egypt where she found an extreme version of what she faced in Canaan, serving selfish interest for poor returns that does not last.

 

[Ken Rank]

Eternal life has no beginning or end. You were always saved in God's mind. And nothing can change the eternal decree. Those who appear to believe and fall away never had eternal life.

That's the thing with the predestination/free will debate... usually both sides don't recognize that both sides exist in Scripture. The difference is, and how I reconcile it... is God didn't create us to be saved or damned, He created us with the ability to choose. But being eternal, He simply knows who will and won't be with Him. From His perspective it is predestination to a degree because He knows... but we don't. We have to live and choose and that is why He said, as Dave W pointed point... "Choose this day." We can't say there is no choice when God Himself said to choose!

 

[Dave L]

That's the thing with the predestination/free will debate... usually both sides don't recognize that both sides exist in Scripture. The difference is, and how I reconcile it... is God didn't create us to be saved or damned, He created us with the ability to choose. But being eternal, He simply knows who will and won't be with Him. From His perspective it is predestination to a degree because He knows... but we don't. We have to live and choose and that is why He said, as Dave W pointed point... "Choose this day." We can't say there is no choice when God Himself said to choose!

It is easy to reconcile if you realize people choose what they want, but God controls the reasons they base their choices on. And so God controls them through their own desires.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not at all.
If you think that, you are using a false pagan logic system. (Aristotelian)

That is where Calvin went wrong (and to a degree so did Arminius) using Aristotle's logic (who was an idol worshiper) to analyze scripture.

God loves the world John 3:16

God sent His Son so the world could be saved. John 3:17

God wants everyone to repent and be saved. 2 Peter 3:9 1 Timothy 2:3-4

 

[BNR32FAN]

Eternal life has no beginning or end. God is eternal life.

Verse please