Can we choose God's elects?

[BibleBeliever1611]

I was thinking about Calvinism and I came up with this thought experiment. Imagine that someone is not saved, but he would get saved if some missionary went out and gave him the gospel. Now, if that person gets saved, he would be God's elect. But if he didn't get saved, then he would not be God's elect.

So does that mean that we can actually choose God's elects based on whom we give the gospel?

Calvinism is weird, haha.

 

[Radagast]

I was thinking about Calvinism and I came up with this thought experiment. Imagine that someone is not saved, but he would get saved if some missionary went out and gave him the gospel. Now, if that person gets saved, he would be God's elect. But if he didn't get saved, then he would not be God's elect.

If he is one of God's elect, he will get saved. God will make sure of that.

If he is not one of God's elect, he will not get saved, no matter what.

 

[-57]

I was thinking about Calvinism and I came up with this thought experiment. Imagine that someone is not saved, but he would get saved if some missionary went out and gave him the gospel. Now, if that person gets saved, he would be God's elect. But if he didn't get saved, then he would not be God's elect.

So does that mean that we can actually choose God's elects based on whom we give the gospel?

Calvinism is weird, haha.

We are "tools" in Gods tool box...so to speak. God uses us to save His elect. When a Calvinist evangelizes they assume everyone is elect, present the message and let God open their hearts to the message.

 

[Tolworth John]

does that mean that we can actually choose God's elects based on whom we give the gospel?

No.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

If he is one of God's elect, he will get saved. God will make sure of that.

If he is not one of God's elect, he will not get saved, no matter what.

So are you saying that there's no free will and we are like robots programmed to do whatever God wants us to do?

 

[com7fy8]

If I may share as a person who is not an official Calvinist >

So does that mean that we can actually choose God's elects based on whom we give the gospel?

Calvinism is weird, haha.

Based on the Bible, itself, I find that God's word says He is in control of who gets saved and who does not. And I understand this is one thing that Calvinists also believe.

So, it can be simple to see, then, that the missionary is not deciding . . . if God is the One guiding the missionary.

 

[com7fy8]

So are you saying that there's no free will and we are like robots programmed to do whatever God wants us to do?

As a guest here >

God's word to me indicates God is in control of what happens to people. And it says when He saves a person the person becomes a child of God and becomes alive. So, if the person is ever a robot, it is while the person is a love-dead robot in sin. God's love does not make robots but children alive in love.

So, while people are with Satan, then, they are robots, maybe having wills, but love-dead character for operating their wills. And they can worship their own wills, in reality love-dead wills, as having control over God.

I offer as a guest > Calvinists are welcome to compare this with what you understand. Thank you

 

[Radagast]

So are you saying that there's no free will

Sigh.

I'm saying that there is compatibilist free will, but not libertarian free will.

 

[JM]

So are you saying that there's no free will and we are like robots programmed to do whatever God wants us to do?

The idea that man's 'free will' can override God's will is a pernicious thought and the most hideous doctrine of the free will works religionist.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Don Maurer]

I was thinking about Calvinism and I came up with this thought experiment. Imagine that someone is not saved, but he would get saved if some missionary went out and gave him the gospel. Now, if that person gets saved, he would be God's elect. But if he didn't get saved, then he would not be God's elect.

So does that mean that we can actually choose God's elects based on whom we give the gospel?

Calvinism is weird, haha.

I doubt you can think about Calvinism because you do not know what it actually teaches.

So are you saying that there's no free will and we are like robots programmed to do whatever God wants us to do?

"we are like robots" <------ I doubt any Calvinist ever heard that one before. Sigh.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I was thinking about Calvinism and I came up with this thought experiment. Imagine that someone is not saved, but he would get saved if some missionary went out and gave him the gospel. Now, if that person gets saved, he would be God's elect. But if he didn't get saved, then he would not be God's elect.

So does that mean that we can actually choose God's elects based on whom we give the gospel?

Calvinism is weird, haha.

No. God does the choosing of his elect. If somebody converted to Christianity based on our own efforts that would make them Gods elect for 2 reasons. 1. Nobody can go to God unless God regenerates them. 2. It was in God's plan for them to convert through us through the means that they converted at the exact moment of their conversion...etc. That was God's plan not our own.

Ive done a lot of Evangelism online over the last few years. I've succeeded in converting some people to Christianity and because of the work God is doing through me I work with all kinds of different people. Especially homosexuals and transgendered people. God definitely likes taking me out of my comfort zone. It is God that gets the glory, not me. I merely am doing work through him and God provides people for me to talk to and to make friends with.

Many Calvinists believe that everything that happens is foreordained by God. It is God that determines the events of history, and in our lives not man/ourselves. That way it is God that gets the glory not mankind. We see many instances of this being true in scripture.

There isnt an event in history that didnt happen without God's permission and that wasn't a part of God's plan. Even Evil. God always turns Evil into good.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

No. God does the choosing of his elect. If somebody converted to Christianity based on our own efforts that would make them Gods elect for 2 reasons. 1. Nobody can go to God unless God regenerates them. 2. It was in God's plan for them to convert through us through the means that they converted at the exact moment of their conversion...etc. That was God's plan not our own.

Ive done a lot of Evangelism online over the last few years. I've succeeded in converting some people to Christianity and because of the work God is doing through me I work with all kinds of different people. Especially homosexuals and transgendered people. God definitely likes taking me out of my comfort zone. It is God that gets the glory, not me. I merely am doing work through him and God provides people for me to talk to and to make friends with.

Many Calvinists believe that everything that happens is foreordained by God. It is God that determines the events of history, and in our lives not man/ourselves. That way it is God that gets the glory not mankind. We see many instances of this being true in scripture.

There isnt an event in history that didnt happen without God's permission and that wasn't a part of God's plan. Even Evil. God always turns Evil into good.

I think one of the reasons why God's creation is so amazing is the fact that God created man with free will. I think it's amazing that we have the ability to do things that God didn't plan beforehand. That just makes God more glorious. Scientists and engineers can create robots with artificial intelligence, but one thing they would never be able to create is a machine that has a free will.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I think one of the reasons why God's creation is so amazing is the fact that God created man with free will. I think it's amazing that we have the ability to do things that God didn't plan beforehand. That just makes God more glorious. Scientists and engineers can create robots with artificial intelligence, but one thing they would never be able to create is a machine that has a free will.

A Calvinist would disagree with that thought process. While humans have and act in free will our free will will always be in line with God's plan.

I dont know you personally so I cannot give an example but from my own personal life. A few months after I converted to God I was in the midst of dating a black woman (im white so it was an interracial relationship if that makes a difference). She was an atheist, she was against children and having sex in general, yet I was attracted to her. I was always sweet to her and wanted to do the very best that I could for her. But we were so wrong for each other and she completely cut off all ties with me all together. I cried SO much and I prayed to God that if she wasn't the one for me, that I was sick of waiting for the right girl to come along. I prayed and I begged God to give me the girl I was supposed to spend the rest of my life with because at that point I was a 27 years old virgin. I didnt lose my virginity until I was 28 as a side note.

Well I couldn't see God's plan and work in all of this but at that exact same moment my wife had just recently recomitted herself to God (she's been a believer her whole life). And she had broken up with her boyfriend too. Only they were apart at that point for more than six months. She gave God the exact same words (im sick of trying to find love I want to find your match for me). Within not even a month we met each other online, within less than 3 weeks we fell in love (i fell for her instantly it took her a few weeks to like me that way) and i helped my wife get out of the horrible run she was in with her ex and I repressed my feelings. I hate to admit this but less than 5 months after we met we moved in together, within 7 months I asked her to marry me and about a year after that we got married. I took a wickedly stupid risk but Ive been married to her for 5 years now and i will remain married to her until its my time to go home.

It was my free will I freely chose my wife but, God wanted us to meet, fall in love, get married... etc at the time in place of when I'd meet her under what circumstances ..etc. our marriage lasts every test, trial, and pain because God chose us and wanted us to be together. You cannot convince me of anything else. Yes, we have freewill but God drives our free will. God's plan is so perfect that, it can NEVER be thwarted. Even by mankind's own free will. Because our choices in our free will are exactly what God wants.

There have been times when i prayed to the father not knowing why im praying and praying about somebody who is mean to me and I normally would wish to see them burn in hell yet, pray for them under my free will. The basics of Calvinism are yes, we have free will. But God is always in control. God always gets the glory. Mankind, deserves no glory at all and God knows and has setup all of our actions.

 

[com7fy8]

Have you read and fed on Genesis 37-50?

Those brothers had wills. But they did not accomplish what they were intending to do.

"God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. Yes, you might have a will, but how much is your will free, really, if God Himself is resisting you in your pride????

Maybe have some fun with this > tell yourself exactly what you will do in five minutes, maybe longer to make this a more interesting test; write this down now. Then see if you did that when you get around to finding the note, later

There is a reason why God knows what really will happen in the future. You need to be in control of the weather, for one example, so you can know what the weather will do. You might have noticed how we humans have a way of not knowing. There is a reason for this

 

[Neostarwcc]

Have you read and fed on Genesis 37-50?

Those brothers had wills. But they did not accomplish what they were intending to do.

"God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. Yes, you might have a will, but how much is your will free, really, if God Himself is resisting you in your pride????

Maybe have some fun with this > tell yourself exactly what you will do in five minutes, maybe longer to make this a more interesting test; write this down now. Then see if you did that when you get around to finding the note, later

There is a reason why God knows what really will happen in the future. You need to be in control of the weather, for one example, so you can know what the weather will do. You might have noticed how we humans have a way of not knowing. There is a reason for this

Right. But they accomplished what God wanted them to do. They meant evil and to kill Joseph but God made Jospeh high enough in power to be able to feed them. They also became much closer to each other after God brought them back together.

 

[bèlla]

Sigh.

I'm saying that there is compatibilist free will, but not libertarian free will.

Radagast,

Can you unpack this for me please? Thank you.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

A Calvinist would disagree with that thought process. While humans have and act in free will our free will will always be in line with God's plan.

I dont know you personally so I cannot give an example but from my own personal life. A few months after I converted to God I was in the midst of dating a black woman (im white so it was an interracial relationship if that makes a difference). She was an atheist, she was against children and having sex in general, yet I was attracted to her. I was always sweet to her and wanted to do the very best that I could for her. But we were so wrong for each other and she completely cut off all ties with me all together. I cried SO much and I prayed to God that if she wasn't the one for me, that I was sick of waiting for the right girl to come along. I prayed and I begged God to give me the girl I was supposed to spend the rest of my life with because at that point I was a 27 years old virgin. I didnt lose my virginity until I was 28 as a side note.

Well I couldn't see God's plan and work in all of this but at that exact same moment my wife had just recently recomitted herself to God (she's been a believer her whole life). And she had broken up with her boyfriend too. Only they were apart at that point for more than six months. She gave God the exact same words (im sick of trying to find love I want to find your match for me). Within not even a month we met each other online, within less than 3 weeks we fell in love (i fell for her instantly it took her a few weeks to like me that way) and i helped my wife get out of the horrible run she was in with her ex and I repressed my feelings. I hate to admit this but less than 5 months after we met we moved in together, within 7 months I asked her to marry me and about a year after that we got married. I took a wickedly stupid risk but Ive been married to her for 5 years now and i will remain married to her until its my time to go home.

It was my free will I freely chose my wife but, God wanted us to meet, fall in love, get married... etc at the time in place of when I'd meet her under what circumstances ..etc. our marriage lasts every test, trial, and pain because God chose us and wanted us to be together. You cannot convince me of anything else. Yes, we have freewill but God drives our free will. God's plan is so perfect that, it can NEVER be thwarted. Even by mankind's own free will. Because our choices in our free will are exactly what God wants.

There have been times when i prayed to the father not knowing why im praying and praying about somebody who is mean to me and I normally would wish to see them burn in hell yet, pray for them under my free will. The basics of Calvinism are yes, we have free will. But God is always in control. God always gets the glory. Mankind, deserves no glory at all and God knows and has setup all of our actions.

Well, the Bible is against Calvinism though. So Calvinism is not Christianity. For example, how about this verse.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9

So God's will was that no-one should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the fact that there are people who don't come to repentance and will indeed perish is a proof that people can make choices that are against God's will. There are many other verses as well that would debunk Calvinism but I think this is a very clear one.

 

[com7fy8]

there is compatibilist free will, but not libertarian free will.

Can you unpack this for me please? Thank you.

At a few glances, I think this one is fairly clear > Libertarian free will | Theopedia

This gives explanations about libertarian versus compatibilist ideas.

One main issue I see is if we humans of our own wills have the ability to make a choice about Jesus, entirely of our own ability. The libertarian idea seems to be that any human can make a choice about Jesus, without being effected at all by God or other humans . . . no matter how the person's nature has become.

And the compatibilist idea is the person has a will but is limited to one's nature, about what the person chooses. But the person does choose and therefore is accountable. And, of course, what I understand is Calvinism is the idea that God changes a person's nature so then the person is able to choose Jesus. And therefore Calvinism goes with compatibilist free will. I tend to go with this.

There seem to be variations of these ideas.

My personal thing is God is our Potter (Romans 9:21), who decides how each of us comes out. And so the accountability of each of us lies first with God answering to Himself about how and why He has created each of us, and therefore what He will do with each one. I don't know if or how this is dealt with in Calvinism. I mean each person will answer for oneself, but in connection with how God has decided what each person is for. So, the control really belongs to God. But because we are conscious beings, we experience making our own choices, maybe not realizing who is really in control of us.

In any case, each of us will reap . . . so much more than the tiny little seeds we have been sowing > Galatians 6:7-8.

 

[com7fy8]

how about this verse.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9

So God's will was that no-one should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the fact that there are people who don't come to repentance and will indeed perish is a proof that people can make choices that are against God's will.

As a guest not officially claiming to represent Calvinism >

Yes, God's word says God does not desire that anyone will perish. So, ones claim this therefore has to mean God is not in control of the choices humans make. So, I think I get what you are claiming to be true.

But what if God's word does mean God is our potter? Romans 9:21. If God is our Potter who really is in control of what becomes of each of us, how do I understand 2 Peter 3:9? This scripture is an expression of the reality that God is not "willing" . . . meaning He is not pleased . . . though He does control what happens to people. He is not pleased with people perishing, indeed, but He has a purpose for creating vessels for dishonor (Romans 9:21). And if God has a purpose, this is in fact required, with a love benefit, even.

It is like to how you need to use good stainless steel to make a milk bucket, but also use the same stainless steel for making a sewage bucket. You are not willing, not pleased, to be using good stainless steel for a sewer bucket, but you need to keep sewage organized in vessels so it is not just anywhere and everywhere . . . including in your milk!

There are vessels for carrying the filth of "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2) to where it is going. People are carrying unforgiveness, worry, hatred, lusts, pride, bitterness to where this is going for all eternity. This is a terrible job, but people are doing this . . . while they claim they have control, of all things. They are not controlling their horrible stuff, to get rid of it, to say the least.

Only with Jesus can we become vessels of honor, of His beautifully sweet and tender and kind and all-loving generously forgiving love with "rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:28-30). Speaking for myself, I did not choose this; I had no idea.

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

I was a slave, not free. And the glory is to God, not to me making some right choice. Thank You, God our Father

This is my take, independent of Calvinist training, going simply by prayer and the Bible. But it seems I have some amount of stuff in common with Calvinist ideas.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Well, the Bible is against Calvinism though. So Calvinism is not Christianity. For example, how about this verse.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9

So God's will was that no-one should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the fact that there are people who don't come to repentance and will indeed perish is a proof that people can make choices that are against God's will. There are many other verses as well that would debunk Calvinism but I think this is a very clear one.

I dont see how that verse is incompatible with Calvinism. Read the book of John. Particularly chapter 17. Read Christs prayer to God. That God would lose none of those he (God) has given me but that all come to repentance. Forget exactly where in his prayer he says that.

God does will all to come to repentance. All of his children that is. Or as Christ put it several times in his ministry "those the father has given to me."

Also, Peter never said that any of them would be lost. Again to reject Preserverence of the Saints would be to reject scripture itself.

If you want an answer from one of Peters letters though, 1 Peter 2:6-8 describes this quite well. I suggest you read it and read what Peter says closely. Then maybe you would not be so confused about Peters words in his second letter.