Can True Salvation Be Forfeited?

[IntheFaith]

This seems to reflect Heb3:14

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. This is not indicating a loss of eternal life (for we are assured a place in the new city), but that the life we have could lose the reward in the millennial kingdom at the return of Christ to reign with Christ.

 

[heymikey80]

One who receives Jesus --- is faced with the same choice, day after day; walk in Jesus, or turn back to sin. Hence Heb10:26ff, "If WE continue sinning willfully after having received knowledge (epignosis--- true knowledge) of the truth, there no LONGER remains a sacrifice for sins but terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries."

"Walking in Him", denotes "continued-belief". Thus warnings to "walk in Him", and against "being deceived away from Him" (excellent one in Col2:6-8).

RE "work in salvation" --- look at this:

"Therefore WORK out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING...
...for it is God who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose." Philip2:12-13

This reads as "work out the salvation that you HAVE" (not "work to BE saved"), and it reflects that "we work, rather HE works in and THROUGH us".

Harmonizes perfectly with the idea of "indwelt fellowship"; Jesus in us, works through us. THUS fitting perfectly with Eph2:8-10 that we just discussed a few minutes ago:

"By grace through faith have you been saved, and that (grace-through-faith-salvation) is not of yourselves it is the gift of God, NOT as a result of works lest anyone boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ FOR good works, which He has prepared beforehand that we might walk IN them."

We do good works because of Him-in-us. Make sense? In Matt7 Jesus said "no good tree produces bad fruit (works), no bad tree produces good; therefore you will KNOW them by their fruit (deeds!)."

In James2, he says: "What use is it if your brother or sister comes to you in need of basic things, and you say 'go your way be warmed clothed and fed', and do not even give them the things they NEED? THAT kind of faith can NOT save you, CAN it!!!"

("Can-not-can-it", is the correct translation of the "me-dunamai" construct; a negative question expecting only an answer of "no".)


The essence of salvation is the indwelling of the Spirit and the Son in our hearts. As Jesus said in Jn17:3, "Eternal life is knowing YOU (Father-God), and Him whom You sent (Me-Jesus!)."

It's not WHAT you know; but who.

I appreciate this and I agree with most of it. To Reformed Theology sanctification is a part of salvation -- but it's insured by the God of the Universe, not by our wills.

The issue I see is that, faced with this decision every day, and continuing to be sinful creatures, we do choose against Christ. And we do so wilfully. So your citation of Heb 10:26ff applies directly to all: "If WE continue sinning willfully after having received knowledge (epignosis--- true knowledge) of the truth, there no LONGER remains a sacrifice for sins but terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries."

No more sacrifice for sins -- so that leaves us to judgement once we sin wilfully?

 

[heymikey80]

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. This is not indicating a loss of eternal life (for we are assured a place in the new city), but that the life we have could lose the reward in the millennial kingdom at the return of Christ to reign with Christ.

I think the Apostle pointed to the reason why, in Heb 4:2. It was an obedience unmixed with faith that caused the rebellion he was talking about in Hebrews 3.

 

[IntheFaith]

I think the Apostle pointed to the reason why, in Heb 4:2. It was an obedience unmixed with faith that caused the rebellion he was talking about in Hebrews 3.

There was no obedience in them, for they had no faith. We are justified by faith to be saved by grace.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Heb. 3:14) is not the same as "the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard" (4:2b).

While verse 14 is speaking about the condition for believers unto rewards for the millennium, verse 2b is talking about not receiving new life which would be bound for hell.

 

[Ben johnson]

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. This is not indicating a loss of eternal life (for we are assured a place in the new city), but that the life we have could lose the reward in the millennial kingdom at the return of Christ to reign with Christ.

"Metochos", means "partakers"; even "Partners". In Christ (Heb3:14), in a heavenly calling (3:1), in the Holy Spirit (6:4).

"Partners-in-Christ", equates to "saved".
The partnership conditions on our holding fast.

This connects directly to 2Pet3:17 (be diligent lest you fall from your own steadfastness), and Col1:23 (He will present us before God holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from the Hope (Jesus).)

Look back at Lk8:13-15; both groups began with joyful belief; but the SECOND group "held fast and bore fruit with perseverance". The FIRST group FELL to temptation/persecution/affliction.

So Scripture presents our eternity as consequential to our endurance (Lk21:19), not vice-versa...

There was no obedience in them, for they had no faith. We are justified by faith to be saved by grace.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Heb. 3:14) is not the same as "the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard" (4:2b).

There are five "devices" that are tried, to accommodate "problem passages" to a predestination-platform:

1. Subjects were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place
2. Subjects didn't REALLY fall (may have lost only REWARDS)
3. Two groups --- one REMAINED saved, second (lurking AMONGST the saved) were NEVER saved
4. Hypothetical --- either the INCIDENT isn't real (fatherly advice to keep us in line), or the people aren't real
5. Dispensation --- applies to THEM back THEN but not to US here TODAY

So you're using #1, "they weren't really saved in the first place". But the context is addressed to HOLY BRETHREN, partners in a heavenly calling; it says "do not harden yourselves, do not become hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God. Neither #1, nor #2 applies, does it?

While verse 14 is speaking about the condition for believers unto rewards for the millennium, verse 2b is talking about not receiving new life which would be bound for hell.

The "partnership in Christ" conditions on "holding fast"; I don't think there is a salvation WITHOUT "partnership in Christ".

I think you lost me on "verse 2b"...

 

[Ben johnson]

I appreciate this and I agree with most of it. To Reformed Theology sanctification is a part of salvation -- but it's insured by the God of the Universe, not by our wills.

...but can you find that idea in Scripture? In Heb10:29, it reads as the consequence of the warning of verse 26 ("continuing sinning willfully"). And that man WAS sanctified by Jesus' blood. How could he not have been (once) saved?

The issue I see is that, faced with this decision every day, and continuing to be sinful creatures, we do choose against Christ. And we do so wilfully.

Look at 1Cor10:13; He always provides us an "OUT" for temptation, so that we CAN stand. We can TAKE His provision, or we can sin. (But let's not forget verse 12...)

So your citation of Heb 10:26ff applies directly to all: "If WE continue sinning willfully after having received knowledge (epignosis--- true knowledge) of the truth, there no LONGER remains a sacrifice for sins but terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries."

No more sacrifice for sins -- so that leaves us to judgement once we sin wilfully?

If "sin willfully" means "practicingly" (and it does), then yes. Choosing sin instead of Christ ruins our position, and subjects us to judgment...

BTW, the idea of "ruining faith" of those for whom Christ DIED, is also a Scriptural concept; see 1Cor8:11, Rm14:15 --- two verses that can never accommodate "saved-faith-can't-be-destroyed".

 

[Ben johnson]

Once you understand that Paul's epistles address professing believers made up of genuine and non, the problem is solved.

The author of Hebrews says in 6:9 that he believed these were truly saved and all the things he was speaking of didn't apply to the saved.

Heb. 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case — things that accompany salvation.

In my previous post #85, I mention the "Five-Ways" --- five devices that are attempted to explain "problem passages" to Reformed Theology. You're employing #3. But 6:4-6 is unquestionably speaking of those who WERE saved. "Partners in the Holy Spirit", and twice he uses "taste", geuomai-taste EXACTLY as he says in 2:9, "Jesus tasted death". We can't deny that they were saved.

He then says, "And FALL-ING away, it is impossible (adunatos --- impossible, unable, powerless) to restore them to repentance SEEING-AS (King James), BECAUSE (New International), SINCE (New American Standard), WHILE! (NASV footnote) they crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him to shame (contempt). This is the same exact concept as in Heb10:26; "continuing sinning willfully departs from Jesus' saving sacrifice"...

Heb. 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

The saved don't shrink back.

What if we DO? Saying "we are confident of better thints, we are not of those who shrink back", is a "positive affirmation". It does not deny the possibility. The entire chapter 10 warns against "throwing away Jesus-our-hope" (35), "you NEED endurance SO THAT you inherit the promise".

Look now at 1Jn2:26-28; here is a warning TO abide in Jesus, "SO THAT we not shrink in shame at His coming".

So "shrink-back" is a real possibility (if we do not abide, if we forsake diligence), isn't it?

See previous answers. He knew the church consisted of true and false believers.

But he's referring to those who WERE saved, but now are fall-ING away. That is a fact, and it is a participle.

Because true knowledge doesn't save. It as to be mixed with faith. John said,

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

This doesn't mean every man gets saved.

But can real faith, ever become non-faith?

Yes.

Because belief was only possible through a special provision—divine enablement. We were in bondage to our old master, helpless until we were bought.

OOPS --- Peter labors to convey how ROTTEN the "false teachers/prophets" were (2nd letter, ch2), but plainly says "the Master BOUGHT them". That's unlimited atonement. They were BOUGHT by His blood, but they refused.

Then, those who choose Christ become slaves of Christ.

HOW? "From their HEARTS". Rm6:17.

Now the same rule should hold true. Without a special provision, how can our wills be free from Him? The Devil would need to do some kind of sacrificial deed to purchase us back. I see no evidence of this in scripture. Do you?

Very much so. God does not WANT us to sin; but we (saved), do.

God is RESISTIBLE.

After we sin, we have a choice --- to REPENT, or to sin AGAIN.

It is the "again" that gets us in trouble...

 

[IntheFaith]

This connects directly to 2Pet3:17 (be diligent lest you fall from your own steadfastness), and Col1:23 (He will present us before God holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from the Hope (Jesus)

The gospel includes more than just assured eternal life, but also includes all that flows with that life unto the conduct of Matthew 5-7 and the rewards in that life for the millennial reigh with Christ. Though someone can not lose that which is eternal once received, they can yet lose the reward of reigning over the nations in the millennium. Many Christians will lose such blessing (Rev. 1:3) and be cast into outer darkness, outside the light of the reward of reigning for the 1000 years that is to come. All the hope that is in Christ includes to be one who "overcometh" to receive that prize spoken to each of the seven churche periods. We know we are saved, but we are not assured of rewards. Do note that in the new earth after the millennium, rewards are done away with.

Look back at Lk8:13-15; both groups began with joyful belief; but the SECOND group "held fast and bore fruit with perseverance". The FIRST group FELL to temptation/persecution/affliction.

So Scripture presents our eternity as consequential to our endurance (Lk21:19), not vice-versa...

Those who bore fruit shall reign in the millennium, which is the hidden treasure (Matthew 13). The first group was not saved for God's mind did not even penetrate the soil to begin with to receive regeneration, but the other unfruitful groups were all saved, except did not all produce fruit like spiritual Christians; so the 5 wise virgins get to enter the marriage feast of the millennium to reign over the nations, while the 5 unwise virgins though still saved as virgins, would be cast into outer darkness for the duration until the new city begins as they need to be disciplined and made ready. Those who produced fruit had disciplined themselves by the grace of God. Those others would need to be disciplined by the hand of God and then they would be ready.

There are five "devices" that are tried, to accommodate "problem passages" to a predestination-platform:

1. Subjects were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place
2. Subjects didn't REALLY fall (may have lost only REWARDS)
3. Two groups --- one REMAINED saved, second (lurking AMONGST the saved) were NEVER saved
4. Hypothetical --- either the INCIDENT isn't real (fatherly advice to keep us in line), or the people aren't real
5. Dispensation --- applies to THEM back THEN but not to US here TODAY

God predistinates by foreknowing (Rom. 8:29) our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints.

There is no problems with predestination. 1 is true. 2 is true. 3 is true (in the sphere of the kingdom of heaven there are saved wheat and unsaved tares).

The hypothetical is nonsense since people really are saved or not saved. And 5 is silly since again, people are saved eternally whether then or now or in the future.

So you're using #1, "they weren't really saved in the first place". But the context is addressed to HOLY BRETHREN, partners in a heavenly calling; it says "do not harden yourselves, do not become hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God. Neither #1, nor #2 applies, does it?
The "partnership in Christ" conditions on "holding fast"; I don't think there is a salvation WITHOUT "partnership in Christ".

I don't think there is a salvation without partnership with Christ, nor should you. Therefore, what needs to be held fast is necessary so that you don't lose rewards, but if you think you can lose life were what in you is causing you to think what God gives with His infininite foreknowledge to remain forever is not so? It's like saying you think God's infinite foreknowledge is not real, thus worshipping some other god.

I am using #1, #2, #3. Different verses of the Bible apply to #1, #2 or #3. We have discussed several verses and in each case I have described whether #1 or #2 or #3 have applied. I have shown all three to be in use. The holy brethren apply to #2 if they are careless and not watchful. #2 applies to "do not become hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God". To fall away is not to lose eternal life, but to lose the reward of reigning in the millennium. Eternal life is eternal, so you can't lose eternalness.

I think you lost me on "verse 2b"...

What does 2b say?

There was no obedience in them, for they had no faith. We are justified by faith to be saved by grace.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Heb. 3:14) is not the same as "the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard" (4:2b). These latter (2b) are like those where the word of God does not even penetrate the soul because they were never saved to begin with.

While verse 14 is speaking about the condition for believers unto rewards for the millennium, verse 2b is talking about not receiving new life which would be bound for hell.

It's very simple really, not so simple if you read with your head, not by the spirit.

 

[Ben johnson]

The gospel includes more than just assured eternal life, but also includes all that flows with that life unto the conduct of Matthew 5-7 and the rewards in that life for the millennial reigh with Christ. Though someone can not lose that which is eternal once received, they can yet lose the reward of reigning over the nations in the millennium. Many Christians will lose such blessing (Rev. 1:3) and be cast into outer darkness, outside the light of the reward of reigning for the 1000 years that is to come. All the hope that is in Christ includes to be one who "overcometh" to receive that prize spoken to each of the seven churche periods. We know we are saved, but we are not assured of rewards. Do note that in the new earth after the millennium, rewards are done away with.

Wow --- where to begin, my friend?

"God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darness, we lie and do not practice the truth. BUT if we walk in the light, as He Himself is in the light, THEN the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin." 1Jn1

How do I convince you that "one who belongs to Christ, can never be cast into outer darkness"? For to be cast into darkness, is to be cast completely, finally, away from CHRIST; and is therefore no longer Christian.

Look at Paul's words in 2Tim2:
"If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him.
If we endure, we shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him, HE will deny US.
If we are FAITHLESS, yet He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."p

If we endure, we shall reign; is there a Heaven-bound person who will NOT reign with Him? NO; the "first resurrection" are for His OWN, who will reign; the SECOND resurrection is for judgment of the WICKED. "Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the FIRST resurrection --- against these the SECOND DEATH has no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Rev20

If we DENY Him, He will deny us before God (see Matt10:32-33), and we will NOT reign, we will NOT live forever; we will perish. Even THOUGH He remains faithful, if we are faithless we cannot be "faithlessly-saved".

God predistinates by foreknowing (Rom. 8:29) our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints.

There is no problems with predestination. 1 is true. 2 is true. 3 is true (in the sphere of the kingdom of heaven there are saved wheat and unsaved tares).

The hypothetical is nonsense since people really are saved or not saved. And 5 is silly since again, people are saved eternally whether then or now or in the future.

The "Five-Ways" are applied on a verse-by-verse basis, and differently for different denominations.

I don't think there is a salvation without partnership with Christ, nor should you.

Therefore, what needs to be held fast is necessary so that you don't lose rewards, but if you think you can lose life were what in you is causing you to think what God gives with His infininite foreknowledge to remain forever is not so? It's like saying you think God's infinite foreknowledge is not real, thus worshipping some other god.

Salvation is by belief; belief which receives Jesus as Savior and Lord (Master). If belief receives His graceful gift, then unbelief rejects that same gift. See how Rm11:21-23 is worded; it's really clear....

I am using #1, #2, #3. Different verses of the Bible apply to #1, #2 or #3. We have discussed several verses and in each case I have described whether #1 or #2 or #3 have applied. I have shown all three to be in use. The holy brethren apply to #2 if they are careless and not watchful. #2 applies to "do not become hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God". To fall away is not to lose eternal life, but to lose the reward of reigning in the millennium. Eternal life is eternal, so you can't lose eternalness.

"Falling away from God", contextually, is unsalvation. See verse 4:11, "do not FALL, don't fail to enter God's rest by IMITATING their disobedience and unbelief".

I think you and I will agree that "unbelieving, disobedient people" can't be saved...

While verse 14 is speaking about the condition for believers unto rewards for the millennium, verse 2b is talking about not receiving new life which would be bound for hell.

It's very simple really, not so simple if you read with your head, not by the spirit.

It says "they did not have faith"; so "don't imitate their faithlessness".

 

[IntheFaith]

Ben I have to disagree with you in good conscience.

 

[Calminian]

But 6:4-6 is unquestionably speaking of those who WERE saved. "Partners in the Holy Spirit", and twice he uses "taste", geuomai-taste EXACTLY as he says in 2:9, "Jesus tasted death". We can't deny that they were saved.

Partaking but never indwelled. Tasting but never eating. Enlightened, but never believing in the light. Then we are back to the idea of fruit bearing. Can a fruit bearing faith be lost?

7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

And then verse 9, the verse that buries any possibility of these being descriptions of the saved.

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case — things that accompany salvation.

All these terrible things don’t accompany salvation. Clear as could possibly be. He was confident that these things wouldn't apply to them. He believed better things would, things that do accompany salvation. So whatever terms you want to apply to these hypothetical people falling away, saved can't be one of them.

 

[IntheFaith]

How do I convince you that "one who belongs to Christ, can never be cast into outer darkness"? For to be cast into darkness, is to be cast completely, finally, away from CHRIST; and is therefore no longer Christian.

How can you convince Christians they cannot lose rewards in outer darkness? It's not possible. To be cast into outer darkness is temporary for the duration of the millennium. Nor does it have any fire or furnace about it. To enter this dimension does not prevent coming out of it, for the Bible says believers go into it for we know believers will transferred from there into the new city.

3 times this word is used in the Scriptures. Do you see your mistake? Do not assume more than the Word says.

If we endure, we shall reign; is there a Heaven-bound person who will NOT reign with Him? NO; the "first resurrection" are for His OWN, who will reign; the SECOND resurrection is for judgment of the WICKED. "Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the FIRST resurrection --- against these the SECOND DEATH has no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Rev20

If...is the key. If you do not endure, if you are a Christian, you shall lose the reward of reigning with Christ. Many heavenbound believers will not reign with Christ during the millennium. Why? Because they chose to remain tied dow to the earth like a balloon, even saying to themselves there is no such consequences for outer darkness. The second resurrection is at Great White Throne time at the end of the millennium. The first resurrection is a best one. His own that shall reign are the 5 wise virgins. The 5 unwise virgins are also His own, but they need further discipline and training in outer darkness. T

here will be saved souls in the millennium as well. When shall they be resurrected if not at the resurrection at the end of the millennium? So through the millennium, some overcometh to reign, others not. God does not give a condition and then not back it up. He backs it up fully with the kingdom reward as well as loss of reward in outer darkness. This is His glorious way.

If we DENY Him, He will deny us before God (see Matt10:32-33), and we will NOT reign, we will NOT live forever; we will perish. Even THOUGH He remains faithful, if we are faithless we cannot be "faithlessly-saved".

Certainly if you deny Christ publically (Matt. 10:32-33), though you won't lose eternal life, you will be kept out of the kingdom. Now all people live forever. Once-saved-always-saved for the new city, or eternal separation from God in hell! The loss of rewards for believers is outer darkness. God by His infinite foreknowledge gives eternal life not pretentiously. It is because He foreknows whom to give it to who authentically are saved at new birth, so much so, it is never removed for God foresees all that person does to know to give the person His life at new birth.

God does not save the faithless in the first place. To assume He had saved such a person in the first place is not to know God at all. I do tell you the truth. Trust God that He knows what He is doing when He gives eternal life because it eternally is eternal, never removeable. This not only gives us confidence, but comfort. You are without both for you say you can lose eternal life tomorrow. Are you sure you had it in the first place that it be so shaky? How can you be sure if you say you can lose it tomorrow? Be not doubletongued.

The "Five-Ways" are applied on a verse-by-verse basis, and differently for different denominations.
Salvation is by belief; belief which receives Jesus as Savior and Lord (Master). If belief receives His graceful gift, then unbelief rejects that same gift. See how Rm11:21-23 is worded; it's really clear....
"Falling away from God", contextually, is unsalvation. See verse 4:11, "do not FALL, don't fail to enter God's rest by IMITATING their disobedience and unbelief".

Denominations are of no concern here, for they all have their specific errors. Don't say "I am of Cephas" denominally. Unbelief rejects the gift, thus never having received it to begin with. Those who received it remain in it forever, and never do fall to the point where they can be unsaved. They can be fleshly, but never unsaved, for God's life is uncreated and eternal. If you think you can lose eternal life tomorrow, whence did you ever have it in the first place? God is no fickle God to give life, take it away, give it, and take it away again. That would be like saying God doesn't know what He is doing. Is that what you are saying?

By no means is being said that those who have been grafted in that have eternal life shall lose what God eternally foresees that He gave to those who are His sons and daughters, but certainly will entail loss in the millennial kingdom. That is what the 1000 years is for to deal with loss as well as reward. To be cut off in the case of the veil rent is a different nature than to be cut off in the OT, for the Holy Spirit did not indwell in dispensation of the law, but now the Holy Spirit enters the spirit, so you see the breaking off the branches for Israel is a not once for all thing until they-if they do-receive Christ, but for Christians, it is about loss of rewards. When compared other verses this is the only explanation, such as the all 10 virgins being virgins, of the same class-virgins like Christians, like the 144,000 firstfruit virgins which are Christians too (the 144,000 in Rev. 7:1-8 are not firstfruit virgins). They all have the oil of the Holy Spirit.

I think you and I will agree that "unbelieving, disobedient people" can't be saved...
It says "they did not have faith"; so "don't imitate their faithlessness".

Non-believers are unsaved, so if someone you thought was saved is a non-believer, just realize you over assumed they were saved in the first place.

We may easily conclude then that if you are unsaved or will be unsaved, it only means you were never saved to begin with. Sounds fair right?

 

[cygnusx1]

common sense can be forfeited not salvation though , it never was down to man in the first place.

 

[heymikey80]

To Reformed Theology sanctification is a part of salvation -- but it's insured by the God of the Universe, not by our wills.

...but can you find that idea in Scripture?

Well,

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Pp 1:6

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Pp 2:12-13

We know that no one who is born of God contines sinning; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 1 Jn 5:18
​

In Heb10:29, it reads as the consequence of the warning of verse 26 ("continuing sinning willfully"). And that man WAS sanctified by Jesus' blood. How could he not have been (once) saved?

The systematic term "sanctification" has shifted out from under the Scriptural term. The term simply means "set apart" in Scripture. The systematic term vaults to a category of good works and progressive cleansing.

So in Hebrews 10:29 the person was set apart by Jesus' blood.

There're plenty of covenantal distinctions made like this one. Heb 6:6 points out the person falling away recrucified the Son of God. The guy accepted the new covenant in Christ's blood, but not by faith. And when he fell from the covenant, he was effectively denying Christ again and recrucifying Him.

Look at 1Cor10:13; He always provides us an "OUT" for temptation, so that we CAN stand. We can TAKE His provision, or we can sin. (But let's not forget verse 12...) If "sin willfully" means "practicingly" (and it does), then yes. Choosing sin instead of Christ ruins our position, and subjects us to judgment...

The judgment that awaits is what destroys God's adversaries. The punishment is permanent.

BTW, the idea of "ruining faith" of those for whom Christ DIED, is also a Scriptural concept; see 1Cor8:11, Rm14:15 --- two verses that can never accommodate "saved-faith-can't-be-destroyed".

Ruining or polluting someone for whom Christ died is rather distinct from ruining his faith, don't you think? Certainly you can offend his faith, for his conscience is weak. It introduces a severe problem in his walk with Christ to know such things are not between him and God (Rom 14:1-3). And in his confusion he'll probably have major problems growing in faith.

 

[ROGER459]

(Ephesians 4:30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

(Romans 8:9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Thanks, Roger459

 

[Ben johnson]

Partaking but never indwelt.

It uses "metochos", which conveys "PARTNER"; in 3:1, partners in a heavenly calling. In 3:14, partners in Christ. Why should we think it doesn't really mean "partners in the Holy Spirit"?

Tasting but never eating.

Did Jesus die? In Heb2:9, it says "Jesus TASTED death". It uses the same word ("geuomai") as in 6:4. Why should we think they didn't really BELONG?

Enlightened, but never believing in the light.

How can one FALL, from belief that he never HAD? It says, "FALLING" --- that's real.

Then we are back to the idea of fruit bearing. Can a fruit bearing faith be lost?

Apparently yes. Scripture is replete with instances of "falling-from-salvation". James5:19-20 is one...

7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

OK, look at the difference between Luke8:13 and vs15. Both BELIEVED, the thirteeners "received the word with joy". But it was the FIFTEENERS that held fast and bore fruit with perseverance. At once this conflicts your thinking "never believing", and it harmonizes perfectly with Heb6:7-8. The land is TILLED the same (unlimited atonement); it is the FRUIT that determines the blessing (if good soil), or curse (if bad).

And then verse 9, the verse that buries any possibility of these being descriptions of the saved.

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case — things that accompany salvation.

Doesn't "bury" at all; it's a "positive affirmation", not a guarantee. Look at Philip1:6: "I am CONFIDENT that He who began a good work will bring it to completion". Another "positive affirmation", but it exists in the same context of a prayer for us to CONTINUE in salvation:
"And this I pray, that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and judgment, THAT you may approve the things that are excellent, SO THAT you may be sincere and blameless until Christ." Philip1:9

All these terrible things don’t accompany salvation. Clear as could possibly be. He was confident that these things wouldn't apply to them. He believed better things would, things that do accompany salvation. So whatever terms you want to apply to these hypothetical people falling away, saved can't be one of them.

His confidence was also tempered with worry. "I WORRY, that as the serpent deceived Eve, YOUR minds should also be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3

--------------------

To Reformed Theology sanctification is a part of salvation -- but it's insured by the God of the Universe, not by our wills.

...but can you find that idea in Scripture?

Well,
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Pp 1:6

Hi, Mikey; I'm including this in the same post as to Calminian --- because we just discussed this very passage.

So in Hebrews 10:29 the person was set apart by Jesus' blood.

Do you believe that can happen to a "never-saved person"?

Keep in mind the context; if WE continue sinning willfully, after having RECEIVED true knowledge of the truth, there no LONGER remains a sacrifice for sins but terrifying ...judgment ...and fire."

There're plenty of covenantal distinctions made like this one. Heb 6:6 points out the person falling away recrucified the Son of God. The guy accepted the new covenant in Christ's blood, but not by faith. And when he fell from the covenant, he was effectively denying Christ again and recrucifying Him.

Wait --- if he never had faith, then what did he fall away FROM?

The judgment that awaits is what destroys God's adversaries. The punishment is permanent.

Agreed; but if WE continue in sin (rather than in Jesus), WE suffer that judgment.

Ruining or polluting someone for whom Christ died is rather distinct from ruining his faith, don't you think? Certainly you can offend his faith, for his conscience is weak. It introduces a severe problem in his walk with Christ to know such things are not between him and God (Rom 14:1-3). And in his confusion he'll probably have major problems growing in faith.

In 1Cor8:11, can "brother" apply to one who did NOT have saving-faith? Can "perish", still mean "saved"?

 

[heymikey80]

No prob' I found me there!

Do you believe that can happen to a "never-saved person"?

yes.

Keep in mind the context; if WE continue sinning willfully, after having RECEIVED true knowledge of the truth, there no LONGER remains a sacrifice for sins but terrifying ...judgment ...and fire."

Um, careful adding that "true" to "knowledge of the truth". While true in the forensic case, it's not establishing an intimate relationship. It sets the person apart. He knows what he's responsible to do. Yet he continues on with the sin that he did before.

Christianity isn't a knowledge-oriented system. It isn't spreading knowledge about Christ in order that people receive and consider that knowledge the truth. Christianity uses knowledge to establish a reliance on the One it proclaims. It's that reliance that's so crucial.

So knowledge without submission flouts faith. This view is repeated in James, 1 John, the application passages of Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, the Thessalonian letters. Those who turn to Christ don't willingly persist in their old sinful patterns. And they have a newfound ally to fight the battle: the Spirit. It may take awhile (cf. Heb 7:eoc-8), the Spirit operates on His own timetable, not ours (John 3:8). But He's there. (Rom 8:1-2)

Wait --- if he never had faith, then what did he fall away FROM?

The body of believers and the initial relationship with God through them. He can't be turned back to the body of believers -- they've done everything they could do, they're being told not to pursue him.

Agreed; but if WE continue in sin (rather than in Jesus), WE suffer that judgment.

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18
​

The problem of course is that people in the church -- not believers in particular but nominal Christians in general -- definitely are vulnerable. People can be deceived about whether they're born of God or saved.

In 1Cor8:11, can "brother" apply to one who did NOT have saving-faith? Can "perish", still mean "saved"?

"apollumi" can be simply "ruin", not necessarily "perish" or "destroy". You ruin wine when it goes to vinegar or becomes undrinkable; you ruin wineskins when they burst under the stress. The Greek word transliterates to "pollute". But it's a tough verse because it's ambiguous.

 

[Calminian]

It uses "metochos", which conveys "PARTNER"; in 3:1, partners in a heavenly calling. In 3:14, partners in Christ. Why should we think it doesn't really mean "partners in the Holy Spirit"?

I don’t think you quite understand the way languages work. The fact that a word has a range of meanings doesn’t mean you can look at a lexicon and pick which meaning you want the word to have. Have you ever studied greek or any other language? I noticed you quote the greek words and their range of meanings a lot and I’m not sure that's a good idea. Meanings are determined by many things including context. After studying greek I stopped quoting it so much. I realized I was creating more problems than I was solving. In fact the more I learned the more I became aware of how little I really know. You really need to put more trust in the scholars that translate these passages. They have their reasons for the words they choose. The fact that a word has a range of meaning doesn't mean every meaning will work in every context. I’m not saying it’s never appropriate to bring up the original word, but sometimes it’s a little overwhelming in your posts. Just a thought, no offense intended.

Now if you believe only a christian can partake in the Spirit’s workings that’s fine. But the Spirit is instrumental in the drawing of unbelievers and I must concluded they have partaken of Him in some sense. It seems obvious to me. Now certainly there are things that only the believer partakes in.

A heavenly calling:

Heb. 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,

Christ:

Heb. 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Chastening from God the Father:

Heb. 12:8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

But nowhere do I see the Spirit's work limited to believers. He is the primary member of the Godhead that is instrumental in our conversion. Indeed I believe the rejection or resisting of the Spirit's work to be the blasphemy of the Spirit, i.e. unbelief.

Regarding tasting vs. eating, while eating requires tasting, tasting doesn’t require eating. Nowhere (to my knowledge) is tasting used as a description of salvation. But eating is.

Regarding light, enlightenment and knowledge are used universally of believers and unbelievers. John said Jesus would enlighten every man (John 1:9). And Jesus stressed the importance of responding to that enlightenment.

John 12:35 Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. 36 Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

In case you are wondering this the same greek word used in Hebrews 6.

How can one FALL, from belief that he never HAD? It says, "FALLING" --- that's real. Apparently yes.

The only problem is, the term belief isn’t there.

 

[Calminian]

Um, careful adding that "true" to "knowledge of the truth". While true in the forensic case, it's not establishing an intimate relationship. It sets the person apart. He knows what he's responsible to do. Yet he continues on with the sin that he did before.

Actually I think Ben is right on this one. The word carries a much stronger meaning than just a casual knowing. Young's Literal Translation renders it this way.

Heb. 10:26 For we — wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth — no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,

Edit: actually after reading the rest of your post I'm not sure you're in disagreement with this. But it is descriptive of a very full complete knowledge—a knowledge apparently given to all men.

Rom. 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

 

[Ben johnson]

yes.

Hmmm; how can the "unsaved", be sanctified by Jesus' blood? Please help me understand how that can happen.

Um, careful adding that "true" to "knowledge of the truth". While true in the forensic case, it's not establishing an intimate relationship. It sets the person apart. He knows what he's responsible to do. Yet he continues on with the sin that he did before.

"Epignosis" conveys experiential knowledge. Further supporting "TRUE KNOWLEDGE", is the inclusion of "WE". There is movement in the verse; first, by proposing "if WE continue sinning, the writer includes himself. Second, after having received TRUE KNOWLEDGE" --- that would be meaningless if "were-never-saved" (in that case, they WOULD continue sinning, there would BE no "if").

The "CONTINUE-SINNING" conveys movement away from forgiveness and towards judgment.

And that places the man in verse 29 as ALSO moving (from "sanctification" to "scorning/trampling/insulting").

Christianity isn't a knowledge-oriented system. It isn't spreading knowledge about Christ in order that people receive and consider that knowledge the truth. Christianity uses knowledge to establish a reliance on the One it proclaims. It's that reliance that's so crucial.

Greek scholars (including a local university professor I consulted) recognize that "epignosis" in verses like this, means "saved-knowledge".

The problem of course is that people in the church -- not believers in particular but nominal Christians in general -- definitely are vulnerable. People can be deceived about whether they're born of God or saved.

I see --- one can THINK he's saved but NOT be? But --- doesn't "Reformed Theology" assert "total depravity means they are ENEMIES of God, they can't believe in ANY measure without God's election and monergistic-regeneration"?

Look at all the verses that speak of "deceived"; so many speak to US, and clearly state "deceived away from Christ". 2Cor11:3, Col2:6-8, 2Jn1:7-9, 2Pet3:17, etcetera.

"apollumi" can be simply "ruin", not necessarily "perish" or "destroy". You ruin wine when it goes to vinegar or becomes undrinkable; you ruin wineskins when they burst under the stress. The Greek word transliterates to "pollute". But it's a tough verse because it's ambiguous.

It's not ambiguous to me. "If my eating meat RUINS a brother for whom Christ died, then I won't eat meat."