Can True Salvation Be Forfeited?

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Ben johnson

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Calminian said:
I would also say that we can be deceived away from Christ—that is, from the truth about Him. This is why the doctrine of efficacious regeneration prior to faith doesn't fit with New Testament teachings. There are several passages that teach men can fall from knowledge of the truth (enlightenment).

So the question is, did this generation fall from salvation, or just an opportunity? This is probably where we'd separate. In Hebrews 4 God likens this opportunity to enter the promised land to the gospel.
There are three choices:

1. They fell from salvation
2. They were never-saved, fell from OPPORTUNITY to BE saved
3. They were fallen-away-SAVED

I don't see how #2 or #3 could be possible.
They failed to have faith and enter. This serves as a warning to us to not make the same mistake.
There is movement here. Movement FROM saved to "fallen". Read Heb3:12-14 --- it cannot be addressing the "never-saved"; he's speaking to "holy brethren, PARTNERS in a heavenly calling"...
And I'll end with a questions. Do men perish for their sins, or their unbelief?
Technically, "unbelief"; but they are one and the same.

He who abides in unbelief, abides in sin; he who abides in righteousness, abides THROUGH belief in Christ...
 
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Ben johnson

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InTheFaith said:
By saying salvation can be lost is like saying the person was not saved to begin with since eternal life is eternal.
Hi! Welcome to the boards!!! :D

Eternal life is eternal; but was it eternal before we were saved? Yes. Will it still be eternal if we fall away?

Yes.

Look at this: "...to an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, that WILL not fade away, reserved in Heaven for you, protected by the power of God, THROUGH FAITH, for a salvation ready to be revealed in the end time." 1Pet1:4-5

If faith is OURS, then we are kept by God's power through our faith. Make sense? This seems to reflect Heb3:14, "We are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."

:)
 
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Ben johnson

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Calminian said:
Notice it doesn't say they used to know God’s ways but fell away. The warning is not to be like them, having never known God's ways.

This corresponds to Jesus's condemnation of pseudo believers.
OK, what do you do with the Galatians? They were KNOWN BY GOD (4:9), begun in the SPirit (3:3), running well and obeying the truth (5:7). Is there any way they were NOT "saved"?

In 5:4, they are "severed from Christ and fallen from grace". Is there any way that "apo-katargeo" does NOT mean "severed/become-no-effect", or "ekpipto-charis" does NOT mean "fallen from grace"?
Notice it doesn't say He once knew they but they fell away. There are some in the church saying Lord, Lord that still are not known by God.
He says "holy brethren, PARTNERS in a heavenly calling". How could that refer to the "never-were-saved"?
Peter seems to communicate a similar idea of falling from knowledge, rather than faith.
How were they "escaped world's defilements through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus", without being saved? Notice how those in ch1:1-4 were ALSO "escaped corruption through the true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". Were those in ch1 saved? If those in ch2 are described with the same words, how could they not be saved?
Peter also seems to believe that those who perish, even false teachers, were in some sense bought.
He "bought" them, in the sense of unlimited atonement. They declined....
This all seems to take us back to that event of Moses' time, where they were rescued from Egypt, sanctified by blood at Sinai, and failed to trust God and enter rest. Maybe this will help us understand why He said all sins will be forgiven but one, the blasphemy of the Spriit. I'm convinced, the blasphemy of the Spirit is simply unbelief. Thus we are not condemned for our sins, but for one sin, unbelief.
I agree with this. Please tell me how we become saved BY belief, but cannot later come to UNbelief...
 
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HuiouTheou

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OK, what do you do with the Galatians? They were KNOWN BY GOD (4:9), begun in the SPirit (3:3), running well and obeying the truth (5:7). Is there any way they were NOT "saved"?

In 5:4, they are "severed from Christ and fallen from grace". Is there any way that "apo-katargeo" does NOT mean "severed/become-no-effect", or "ekpipto-charis" does NOT mean "fallen from grace"?
He says "holy brethren, PARTNERS in a heavenly calling". How could that refer to the "never-were-saved"?
How were they "escaped world's defilements through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus", without being saved? Notice how those in ch1:1-4 were ALSO "escaped corruption through the true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". Were those in ch1 saved? If those in ch2 are described with the same words, how could they not be saved?
He "bought" them, in the sense of unlimited atonement. They declined....
I agree with this. Please tell me how we become saved BY belief, but cannot later come to UNbelief...
Wow Ben. Lots to read.

I'm not sure I follow everything:

Is salvation a single thing, or can there be multiple kinds?
(saved from what)...
If punishment and reward are proportional to work (earned or not),
then doesn't it follow that salvation may have degrees?
One may be in the kingdom, as the Israelites were, and still worship other gods -- so they were saved from their enemies in the desert only to fall prey in the promised land.

I realize this doesn't fit the Heaven/Promised land analogy exactly.
But if being in the ekklesia is salvation, is it any more certain than palestine while here on earth?
 
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Ben johnson

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HuiouTheou said:
Wow Ben. Lots to read.

I'm not sure I follow everything:

Is salvation a single thing, or can there be multiple kinds?
Hi! Welcome to the boards!!! :D
(saved from what)...
Technically, "saved from the consequence of sin". As in Rom6:23, "the wages of sin are death".

By redeeming us from sin, His sacrifice becomes our atonement and eternal salvation....
If punishment and reward are proportional to work (earned or not),
There is a "reward" that connects to "work"; but salvation does not. Eph2:8-9 says "By grace have you been saved through faith ...NOT as a result of works..."
then doesn't it follow that salvation may have degrees?
Salvation is "in Christ", and "Christ in us".

"Abide in Me, and I in you". Jn15:4

"God is love; he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." 1Jn4:16


I see "salvation" like "being pregnant"; one cannot be a LITTLE pregnant --- either one IS, or is NOT.
I realize this doesn't fit the Heaven/Promised land analogy exactly.
But if being in the ekklesia is salvation, is it any more certain than palestine while here on earth?
What is "ekklesia"? Salvation is "in Christ" --- connoting belief (which receives the person of Christ, and the person of the Spirit, into one's heart).

If such intimate "indwelt-fellowship" is begun BY belief, then absolutely there is an aspect of ABIDING in Him (which is to say CONTINUING in belief).

Salvation is not "mere-belief" (see James2:19); it is indwelt belief. True communion between Creator (Him) and creature (you and me).

:)
 
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HuiouTheou

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Hi! Welcome to the boards!!! :D
Technically, "saved from the consequence of sin". As in Rom6:23, "the wages of sin are death".

By redeeming us from sin, His sacrifice becomes our atonement and eternal salvation....
There is a "reward" that connects to "work"; but salvation does not. Eph2:8-9 says "By grace have you been saved through faith ...NOT as a result of works..."
Salvation is "in Christ", and "Christ in us".

"Abide in Me, and I in you". Jn15:4

"God is love; he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." 1Jn4:16


I see "salvation" like "being pregnant"; one cannot be a LITTLE pregnant --- either one IS, or is NOT.
What is "ekklesia"? Salvation is "in Christ" --- connoting belief (which receives the person of Christ, and the person of the Spirit, into one's heart).

If such intimate "indwelt-fellowship" is begun BY belief, then absolutely there is an aspect of ABIDING in Him (which is to say CONTINUING in belief).

Salvation is not "mere-belief" (see James2:19); it is indwelt belief. True communion between Creator (Him) and creature (you and me).

:)
I'm still not sure.
In John 6, which I was just reading because of another thread it says:

John6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?


So, it would appear that a KIND of work is salvation -- earned or not.
There is some adjectival modifier missing in Romans?

Gods work/mans work or Gods work in man or work of the Law?
or perhaps just EARNING work vs. accepting work?
 
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HuiouTheou

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Ben,

I see "salvation" like "being pregnant"; one cannot be a LITTLE pregnant --- either one IS, or is NOT.

I did understand that this is the general view of those in this thread.
But, I am wondering if this is a false analogy.

I am sort of wondering -- Pregnant with WHOM.
saved from what. If you say 'sin' then does that mean all sin?
or just some sin? (pregnant with triplets or just one).

I do not deny that salvation is from sin.
I just want a little more scriptural enlightenment on the subject.
 
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Ben johnson

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So, it would appear that a KIND of work is salvation -- earned or not.
There is some adjectival modifier missing in Romans?

Gods work/mans work or Gods work in man or work of the Law?
or perhaps just EARNING work vs. accepting work?
The difference between "religion", and "Christianity", is twofold; religion claims Jesus isn't God, and that salvation (nirvanah, enlightenment, etc) is by works.

Religion: "You are what you do."
Christianity: "You do what you are."

A depraved degenerate sinner is called to salvation; the Gospel has the power to overcome his depravity, in enough measure that he CAN believe. Faced with a choice --- he either RECEIVES Jesus, or turns back to sin.

One who receives Jesus --- is faced with the same choice, day after day; walk in Jesus, or turn back to sin. Hence Heb10:26ff, "If WE continue sinning willfully after having received knowledge (epignosis--- true knowledge) of the truth, there no LONGER remains a sacrifice for sins but terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries."

"Walking in Him", denotes "continued-belief". Thus warnings to "walk in Him", and against "being deceived away from Him" (excellent one in Col2:6-8).

RE "work in salvation" --- look at this:

"Therefore WORK out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING...
...for it is God who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose." Philip2:12-13


This reads as "work out the salvation that you HAVE" (not "work to BE saved"), and it reflects that "we work, rather HE works in and THROUGH us".

Harmonizes perfectly with the idea of "indwelt fellowship"; Jesus in us, works through us. THUS fitting perfectly with Eph2:8-10 that we just discussed a few minutes ago:

"By grace through faith have you been saved, and that (grace-through-faith-salvation) is not of yourselves it is the gift of God, NOT as a result of works lest anyone boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ FOR good works, which He has prepared beforehand that we might walk IN them."

We do good works because of Him-in-us. Make sense? In Matt7 Jesus said "no good tree produces bad fruit (works), no bad tree produces good; therefore you will KNOW them by their fruit (deeds!)."

In James2, he says: "What use is it if your brother or sister comes to you in need of basic things, and you say 'go your way be warmed clothed and fed', and do not even give them the things they NEED? THAT kind of faith can NOT save you, CAN it!!!"

("Can-not-can-it", is the correct translation of the "me-dunamai" construct; a negative question expecting only an answer of "no".)


The essence of salvation is the indwelling of the Spirit and the Son in our hearts. As Jesus said in Jn17:3, "Eternal life is knowing YOU (Father-God), and Him whom You sent (Me-Jesus!)."

It's not WHAT you know; but who.

:)
 
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Ben johnson

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Ps. Thanks for the welcome, its a pretty neat board you have here.
I hope and pray that you will be blessed and matured here; it's already clear that we are blessed by you.
I did understand that this is the general view of those in this thread.
But, I am wondering if this is a false analogy.

I am sort of wondering -- Pregnant with WHOM.
It's not really "with whom"; but conveying "all or nothing". :)
saved from what. If you say 'sin' then does that mean all sin?
We sin. That's a fact. Please read 1Jn3, especially 5-10. It seems clear that we CANNOT sin, doesn't it?

...but then, isn't there a conflict with 1Jn1:8-9? Not at all; because it reflects the "ABIDING" persepective. As Paul writes in Rom6:11, "CONSIDER yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

I love Romans; the entire Christian outlook is there. "ALL have sinned" in ch3; "faith" in ch4. "Born again" in ch6. Then in ch7 --- the WAR between the "newly-born-spirit", and the OLD (dead, but not gone --- and sometimes seems ALIVE) sinful man.

In ch7 Paul cries in despair: "Oh wretched man that I am! Who will FREE me from this war within my members?"

The solution to the war, is in ch8; he speaks of "setting our minds on the SPIRIT, rather than on the flesh". Of "walking in the Spirit, by Him putting to death the deeds of the flesh (if we do, we will live!); but if we walk in the flesh we MUST DIE!"

So --- we either die to sin (united in Jesus' crucifixion), and are raised WITH Jesus in newness of life (Rm6:4), or we are alive to sin and dead to God.

You see --- we do not die to sin by our own strength. Our faith receives Jesus, and then HIS strength empowers us to RESIST sin. The Spirit indwells us and regenerates our hearts.

Jesus becomes our righteousness, in and THROUGH us.

So we are saved from the CONSEQUENCES of sin. Through Him we are truly repentant, His indwelling presence becomes our righteousness. We do NOT sin practicingly, as do the lost. See 2Cor5:21.
or just some sin? (pregnant with triplets or just one).

I do not deny that salvation is from sin.
I just want a little more scriptural enlightenment on the subject.
Look at the idea of "pregnancy" and "sin", as spoken by James:

"God is not tempted, and He tempts NO one; but each is tempted when enticed and carried away by his own lust; lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death. Do not be deceived, beloved brethren." Jms1:14-16

This is written to "saved" (beloved brethren); he uses "death", "thanatos" --- conveying "physical death with eternity in Hell".

So --- we overcome death, and sin (which are the same), by Him-in-us.

What does that mean?


Right now --- you and I have dialog; we have fellowship. We are spending TIME with each other. Though just by keystrokes, we commune in spirit.

You cannot know God, or fellowship with Him (see 1Jn1:1-3), without spending time with Him.

Prayer.

1. Worship --- He inhabits praise and worship; praise Him, and He inhabits you.
2. Repentance --- He forgives our sin; then, quite amazingly, He forgets we sinned, so complete is His forgiveness. Heb8:12

3. Thanksgiving; God never tires of hearing "thank You". Thankfulness is the basis of humility, and unthankfulness is arguably the root of sin.

4. Intercession --- the opposite of Christianity is SELFISHNESS; while we are praying our hearts out for our friends, relatives (and ENEMIES!), it is impossible to be selfish. Prayer moves God; but mostly it changes US, into what we need to BE to minister to them and to show them Jesus' incredible love.

5. Fellowship! The moment Jesus died the VEIL TORE! His blood washed over your soul; now you are clean enough to walk BEHIND the veil into the very presence of God! As you delight in His presence --- do you know that He delights in YOURS? He really does. He enjoys you. Perfect love. :D

6. Waiting on God. It takes discipline and maturity, to still our hearts and our thoughts; just to come into His presence and listen earnestly for His voice. He has promised, "You will come to Me and pray to Me, and I will HEAR you. You will seek Me and you will FIND Me, when you search with all your heart. I WILL BE FOUND by you!" Jer29:11-14

7. Pettition. How often prayer begins and ends ONLY with this! He already knows our hearts, our wants and needs. He has promised to meet our needs; what of our wants? Psalm37:4 says "delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. If we delight in HIM, then our desires will be His.

James says "you have not, because you do not ask; you ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions."

Jesus is now the ONE mediator between God and us; we come into the very presence of the God of the Universe; only because of love. If we do not desire His perfect love and person, with ALL our hearts, then Heaven really holds nothing for us. There is no need for golden streets, pearly gates, mansions and crowns; take them away! All I want, is to be with Him. Forever.

"When we've been there,
Ten thousand years,
We've no less days,
To sing His praise,
Than when we first began!"


This is what we are. It is what He is in and through us. May everything we say and do only give Him glory and praise and honor; may the world see us, and see Him IN us --- and want what we have.

:)
 
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HuiouTheou

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Ben,
The difference between "religion", and "Christianity", is twofold; religion claims Jesus isn't God, and that salvation (nirvanah, enlightenment, etc) is by works.
I'm afraid you've lost me. I understand religion to be feeding the poor, protecting the widow and orphan. This is way off of my compass -- I read Greek, scripture, and pray. Perhaps you are referring to contemporary connotations of religion that I am not aware of.
I am a newbie here.

In the whole of what you wrote, I still note that the either 'God works in us' or 'we work' whether or not for a salvation to come, or one which we have.

But none the less -- a work is involved in salvation. Salvation is by a work. Hence an ADJECTIVE is missing in Romans. A kind of work does not save -- and another does.

What is this modifier which tells us what KIND of work is spoken of in Romans?
 
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Calminian

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Read Heb3:12-14 --- it cannot be addressing the "never-saved"; he's speaking to "holy brethren, PARTNERS in a heavenly calling"...

The church is made up of professing believers. This author and Paul often warned church members to be certain the are in the faith. You cannot make such a warning to anyone if you are certain they are in the faith. The author of Hebrews specifically says,

Heb. 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

Who do you think he is addressing here? Believers? He says, be sure none of you has (present tense) and unbelieving heart. He doesn’t say, make sure none of you develop and unbelieving heart. And notice what he calls them. "Brothers!" So no matter what your view on eternal security, you cannot claim this letter is only addressing genuine believers. We must conclude he was addressing professing believers, both genuine and non.
 
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Ben johnson

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In 1Jn5, "He who HAS the Son has the life; I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life."

So salvation is a DONE DEAL --- inasmuch as Jesus died ONCE on the Cross, for all sins for all time (Heb10:12).

...and salvation is a CONTINUING WALK, inasmuch as we ABIDE in Him. As John says in 1:2:26-28, "Now little children, ABIDE in Him, SO THAT you not shrink in shame at His coming."

We WERE saved when we received Him as Lord (Master) and Savior.

We are being saved as we walk in Him.

"The Gospel is as foolishness to those who are perishing; but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor1:18

:)
 
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OK, what do you do with the Galatians? They were KNOWN BY GOD (4:9), begun in the SPirit (3:3), running well and obeying the truth (5:7). Is there any way they were NOT "saved"?

Once you understand that Paul's epistles address professing believers made up of genuine and non, the problem is solved.

The author of Hebrews says in 6:9 that he believed these were truly saved and all the things he was speaking of didn't apply to the saved.

Heb. 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case — things that accompany salvation.

But he warns just in case.

IOW, among the things that accompany salvation, falling away is not one of them.

Heb. 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

The saved don't shrink back.

In 5:4, they are "severed from Christ and fallen from grace". Is there any way that "apo-katargeo" does NOT mean "severed/become-no-effect", or "ekpipto-charis" does NOT mean "fallen from grace"?
He says "holy brethren, PARTNERS in a heavenly calling". How could that refer to the "never-were-saved"?

See previous answers. He knew the church consisted of true and false believers.

How were they "escaped world's defilements through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus", without being saved?

Because true knowledge doesn't save. It as to be mixed with faith. John said,

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

This doesn't mean every man gets saved.

Notice how those in ch1:1-4 were ALSO "escaped corruption through the true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". Were those in ch1 saved? If those in ch2 are described with the same words, how could they not be saved?
He "bought" them, in the sense of unlimited atonement. They declined....
I agree with this. Please tell me how we become saved BY belief, but cannot later come to UNbelief...

Because belief was only possible through a special provision—divine enablement. We were in bondage to our old master, helpless until we were bought. Then, those who choose Christ becomes slaves of Christ. Now the same rule should hold true. Without a special provision, how can our wills be free from Him? The Devil would need to do some kind of sacrificial deed to purchase us back. I see no evidence of this in scripture. Do you?
 
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Ben johnson

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I'm afraid you've lost me. I understand religion to be feeding the poor, protecting the widow and orphan. This is way off of my compass -- I read Greek, scripture, and pray. Perhaps you are referring to contemporary connotations of religion that I am not aware of.
I'm calling "Christianity", not a religion. So all "religion" --- Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, Judaeism; Shinto, Budhism, Islam; Hinduism, ALL of them --- are based on DEEDS.

"If you're GOOD you'll go to Heaven, if you're bad you go to (the other place...)"

And the truth is that we cannot BE "good". If that were so, then Jesus wouldn't have needed to die.
I am a newbie here.

In the whole of what you wrote, I still note that the either 'God works in us' or 'we work' whether or not for a salvation to come, or one which we have.

But none the less -- a work is involved in salvation. Salvation is by a work. Hence an ADJECTIVE is missing in Romans. A kind of work does not save -- and another does.
OK, look at Rev20:12. "Each was judged according to his WORKS (deeds)." Do deeds SAVE or CONDEMN us?

Look at Rom2:6-8: "...when God will render to each one ACCORDING to his DEEDS; to those, who by doing GOOD seek for glory and honor and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation (Hell)."

So --- are we saved by good deeds, or condemned by bad?

No.

Good deeds come from a SAVED HEART, bad deeds come from an UNSAVED heart. The deeds only reveal if a person WAS saved, or not.
What is this modifier which tells us what KIND of work is spoken of in Romans?
We are saved by grace, through faith; NOT works. That's a Scriptural absolute.

...but the works we do, are then the CONSEQUENCE of the "saved" heart (or evil deeds consequence of the "unsaved" heart).

Look at Heb6:7-8; a field it tilled, the master expecting good fruit. If the field YIELDS good fruit, it is blessed; but if it yields THORNS/THISTLES, it is cursed and burned.

In Jn6:27-29, Jesus says: "Do not work for food which perishes, but work for food that endures to eternal life."

They said: "What shall we do, that we might WORK the works of God?"

Jesus said, "This is the WORK of God, that you believe in Him whom God has sent."

So the WORK that you're wanting to identify, is God's work that we DO, which is to believe in Jesus.

Make sense?

:)
 
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In 1Jn5, "He who HAS the Son has the life; I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life."

Exactly! Not that you will know "how to keep eternal life." John shows us how to recognize if we are indeed possessors of eternal life (a never ending life). A life that can be lost, isn't never ending. He's not telling us how not end something that never ends. We have that life now, not in the future when we can no longer turn away. He's telling us to examine ourselves to make sure we actually have it.

So salvation is a DONE DEAL --- inasmuch as Jesus died ONCE on the Cross, for all sins for all time (Heb10:12).

...and salvation is a CONTINUING WALK, inasmuch as we ABIDE in Him. As John says in 1:2:26-28, "Now little children, ABIDE in Him, SO THAT you not shrink in shame at His coming."

We WERE saved when we received Him as Lord (Master) and Savior.

We are being saved as we walk in Him.

"The Gospel is as foolishness to those who are perishing; but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor1:18

:)

There are two aspects to our salvation. Salvation of our souls, (happens at belief) and salvation of our bodies (happens later) at the resurrection. This doesn't mean we are sort of saved now, but really saved later.
 
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